My thoughts after finishing the series last night (spoilers)

[Guest]

I have a feeling people are going to start getting annoyed with me soon but...

when Rand cleansed Saidin, shouldn't the Ways have been cleansed too? In the EotW they keep talking about how the taint corrupted the Ways and led to the creation of Machin Shin. So, once the taint was gone shouldn't the Ways have been clear again? Or was it like the madness? The amount it progressed remained but didn't proceed further?

[Barid Bel Medar]

I have a feeling people are going to start getting annoyed with me soon but...

when Rand cleansed Saidin, shouldn't the Ways have been cleansed too? In the EotW they keep talking about how the taint corrupted the Ways and led to the creation of Machin Shin. So, once the taint was gone shouldn't the Ways have been clear again? Or was it like the madness? The amount it progressed remained but didn't proceed further?

 

Similar, yes. 

 

 

INTERVIEW: Sep 2nd, 2005

DragonCon Report - Isabel (Paraphrased)

QUESTION

Someone had a question about Machin Shin in the Ways. Since it seems to absorb the creatures that pass through there, could you regard it as a servant of the Dark One or perhaps almost as a Forsaken?

ROBERT JORDAN

It's not a servant of the Dark One. It will kill Trollocs or anything else. You can say it's a parasite that grew in the Ways because of the taint and the One Power that was used to initially create the Ways. The talisman of growing that was used to extend the Ways. So it's not a servant of the Dark One, but it's definitely on the evil side.

QUESTION

Would it be cleaned with the Cleansing of saidin?

ROBERT JORDAN

No. Its like a bacteria breed. Just by cleaning up the chemicals that caused the bacteria to come into existence, unless it's feeding on that, those chemicals, you are not going to destroy the bacteria. You simply cut off what helped to create it.

 

 

And no worries, any questions just ask. 

 

Here is a good source of info though: http://www.theoryland.com/wheel-of-time-interview-search.php (where I got that quote from) 

 

It has a lot of info not specified in the books, confirmed by RJ in interviews etc.. The site has a good system, and you search by tags (eg- I went to 'the Ways'). 

[Giantevilhead]

That's interesting since weaves created with saidin were never affected by the taint.

[mb]

That seems debatable; at least for the Ways.

If the taint did not affect saidin-made things, I take Machin Shin would not have came about.

[Sabio]

Could be how it was created, the amount of power used, or something about how the ways work that made it more vulnerable to the taint.  Thus creating Machin Shin.     So does that mean it might be impossible to ever get rid of Machin Shin?

[Guest]

You're right @Giantvillehead about other weaves being safe... healing, traveling, they were all fine. Why the issue with the Ways? @Sabio I guess according to what @Barid Bel Medar posted unless a concentrated effort was made to destroy Machin Shin, it would stay on. 

[Barid Bel Medar]

Well, since the Taint is cleansed, there is nothing 'feeding' Machin Shin. It's still there like a fungus. If you got rid of it somehow, with the cause gone, it shouldn't come back. 

 

Also, remember that it took around 1000 or 2000 years for the Ways to be corrupted. It can't be compared with other weaves. To check you'd need a tied off weave or some other saidin crafted...something... that was left a millennia to see if it does the same thing. There is nothing crafted post-tainting that has been around that long to verify. 

 

On a smaller scale, it does fit with the Taint's effects on the men who use it. Prolonged contact with the taint drives men insane, and eventually their body decays and they die. The Ways were slowly corrupted by the DO. Obviously the results/time periods were different because it isn't a human body, but a magical world-type-thing that defies time and space. 

 

You could also look at the Blight as a similar example. Prolonged contact with the Dark One twisted the landscape into all sorts of crazy. 

 

It follows a pattern of things that have been exposed to the DO (and his Taint) are corrupted and twisted from their natural form, usually ending up as a dangerous, insane monster type thing. 

 

Edit: In a way, it does somewhat justify the Aes Sedai concerns over even coming in contact with Tainted weaves. Although it would likely take a very long time of constant exposure, it stands to reason that anything could be Tainted. If ( it would have to be several consecutive men) an Aes Sedai spent 200 years being constantly wrapped in weaves of tainted Saidin, there is precedent for the Taint somehow affecting her. 

 

The Bond is also a valid concern, although it is unsure if the Taint can be spread that way, but if you were an Aes Sedai - or anyone - the fear of being tainted by proximity is actually much more reasonable than it first seemed. 

[Guest]

Only example left is possibly Dragonmount itself.. I'm not going to go check on that thing 

[Barid Bel Medar]

Only example left is possibly Dragonmount itself.. I'm not going to go check on that thing 

 

hahaha, I wouldn't want to check a volcano either :P

 

But to be a technical nazi, Lews Therin did it in one go as a destructive force. The Ways were 'nurtured' and 'grown' by Saidin which left it in constant contact. 

[BFG]

 

Only example left is possibly Dragonmount itself.. I'm not going to go check on that thing 

 

hahaha, I wouldn't want to check a volcano either :P

 

But to be a technical nazi, Lews Therin did it in one go as a destructive force. The Ways were 'nurtured' and 'grown' by Saidin which left it in constant contact.

 

I would

[jack of shadows]

dragonmount is not a good example,lews therin created his monument only after

elan morin healed him,pride,shame and rage were certainly in the mix,but not the taint.

[Suttree]

dragonmount is not a good example,lews therin created his monument only after

elan morin healed him,pride,shame and rage were certainly in the mix,but not the taint.

LTT did not have the taint removed. He was just granted a short period of sanity.

 

Well, since the Taint is cleansed, there is nothing 'feeding' Machin Shin. It's still there like a fungus. If you got rid of it somehow, with the cause gone, it shouldn't come back

 

Am I correct in recalling that Brandon wrote a scene which didn't make the cut which included the Ogier cleaning the ways?

[Barid Bel Medar]

I'm not sure if it was getting rid of Machin Shin, but they definitely had some way of at least pushing it back, which would suggest that there is room to cleanse it. 

[jack of shadows]

@suttree,

"he was just granted a short period of sanity".

yes,but how exactly did elan morin do it?how could he grant a completely insane person 

his sanity back if not by removing his taint?

in my opinion,nynaeve did something similar to naeff madness,she didn't heal him(not

per se anyway),she removed the taint from his mind.

[Suttree]

@suttree,

yes,but how exactly did elan morin do it?how could he grant a completely insane person 

his sanity back if not by removing his taint?

in my opinion,nynaeve did something similar to naeff madness,she didn't heal him(not

per se anyway),she removed the taint from his mind.

 

One can treat some of the negative impacts of a disease, while not curing the disease itself. Ishamael says as much himself.

 

Tossing back his black cloak, Elan Morin flexed his hands. "A pity for you," he mused, "that one of your Sisters is not here. I was never very skilled at Healing, and I follow a different power now. But even one of them could only give you a few lucid minutes, if you did not destroy her first. What I can do will serve as well, for my purposes." His sudden smile was cruel. "But I fear Shai'tan's healing is different from the sort you know. Be healed, Lews Therin!" He extended his hands, and the light dimmed as if a shadow had been laid across the sun.

[mb]

one difference between the Ways and other weaves is that the Ways are a physical thing; other weaves generally disappear after they are made.

 

Dragonmount; from what I skimmed, I take Androl transported at least a portion of its lava to Caemlyn.

not entirely sure, but there might have been some chance that some creature/entity came about sometime after the creation of Dragonmount.  If that creature/entity existed, there might be some chance that it killed at least some of the people that went up Dragonmount.

[Guest]

 

@suttree,

yes,but how exactly did elan morin do it?how could he grant a completely insane person 

his sanity back if not by removing his taint?

in my opinion,nynaeve did something similar to naeff madness,she didn't heal him(not

per se anyway),she removed the taint from his mind.

 

One can treat some of the negative impacts of a disease, while not curing the disease itself. Ishamael says as much himself.

 

Tossing back his black cloak, Elan Morin flexed his hands. "A pity for you," he mused, "that one of your Sisters is not here. I was never very skilled at Healing, and I follow a different power now. But even one of them could only give you a few lucid minutes, if you did not destroy her first. What I can do will serve as well, for my purposes." His sudden smile was cruel. "But I fear Shai'tan's healing is different from the sort you know. Be healed, Lews Therin!" He extended his hands, and the light dimmed as if a shadow had been laid across the sun.

 

 

Have to agree with @Suttree here. Even after the taint was removed, the madness didn't go away. It stopped progressing as what was feeding it was cut off but it was a physical disease. Androl and the others who had suffered the beginning of madness retained those vestiges. I'm assuming Machin Shin is something similar. An entire new entity created and grown by the taint but not dependent on it to survive.

[jack of shadows]

@aziz,

"even after the taint was removed,the madness didn't go away."

yes,it did.

you mixed two different problems,cleansing saidin and removing the taint.

cleansing saidin didn't remove the already existing taint inside male channeler's  brain

so their madness was still there.

just before her brief return to the white tower,nynaeve removed the taint from three asha'man's 

brains,naeff(on-screen),narishma and flinn(off-screen),we could clearly see from naeff's reaction

that his madness was gone.

[Guest]

@aziz,

"even after the taint was removed,the madness didn't go away."

yes,it did.

you mixed two different problems,cleansing saidin and removing the taint.

cleansing saidin didn't remove the already existing taint inside male channeler's  mind

so their madness was still there.

just before her brief return to the white tower,nynaeve removed the taint from three asha'man's 

minds,naeff(on-screen),narishma and flinn(off-screen),we could clearly see from naeff's reaction

that his madness was gone.

 

wait no. I'm pretty sure cleansing saidin = removing the DO's taint from it. 

Let me look up some quotes. The male chanellers (sp?) were going mad because of the the taint. it wasn't the taint itself in their minds. 

If you think of how Nynaeve perceives the madness in their head as the taint (the black spiky stuff) I think that's just the OP version of a CT scan. But they were experiencing an actual physical disease due to the taint. 

 

which brings me to another question. I've started a re-read and in the first couple of books there's a lot of mention of how the male channelers (sp?) would not only go mad but also their bodies would rot around them. When Rand uses the Portal Stones he sees the version where he's lost limbs and men say he "smells of decay". But later NONE of the Asha'mann (sp?) experience any leprosy like symptoms. Am I missing sth? 

[Guest]

@jack of shadows: I'm too lazy to search for quotes without my morning coffee haha, but this might help http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Cleansing_of_saidin 

in particular.. "in 1000 NE, Rand Al'Thor made an extraordinary claim: he believed he had discovered how to cleanse the Dark One's 3,000-year-old taint on saidin."

 

For me that means cleansing saidin = removing taint 

[Guest]

okay for some reason my edited post isn't showing up the two lines I added but this is the sentence I mostly wanted to draw attention to: "In 1000 NE, Rand al'Thor made an extraordinary claim: he believed he had discovered how to cleanse the Dark One's 3,000-year-old taint on saidin"

 

for me this means cleansing saidin = removing DO's taint

[Sabio]

I think rotting limbs is deep into "the madness"  From the time Asha'amn started training to the time the taint was cleaned not that long went by I think for the rot to come into play. 

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think rotting limbs is deep into "the madness"  From the time Asha'amn started training to the time the taint was cleaned not that long went by I think for the rot to come into play. 

 

This. The rot comes after. None of the Asha'man had been channeling long enough to even begin to show signs. You go mad first, then decay. The time varies from person to person, but Taim killed the men who were too insane - like Rand did with Morr - so they didn't have time. Most of the other male channelers throughout history died or were Severed by Aes Sedai before it got to that point. 

 

I'd say someone who lived to the point where they were decaying would be extremely rare. 

 

 

Also, to settle some confusion. 

 

Rand -> cleansing is exactly like the Ways. 

 

The Taint was cleansed, but the effects of the Taint still stayed in the 'black spikes'. The Taint caused the black spikes to grow on the brains of male channelers. They don't get any worse, but what damage there is stays. 

 

Nynaeve healed the madness, not the taint. She removed the madness that had already taken form. 

[jack of shadows]

@barid bel medar,

"nynaeve healed the madness not the taint".

nynaeve healed the madness when she removed the taint,

in my opinion,those black spikes inside male channeler's brain are a physical

manifestation of the taint,something akin to a brain tumor,nynaeve didn't remove

the madness,she removed the malignant black spikes,and when those spikes 

were removed the madness was gone.

[Sabio]

So the real big question is are the black spikes actually the taint, or just the end product the madness takes on the brain? 

 

If those black spikes is the actual taint, could she even remove that?  After all curing the madness is different then actually removing the DO's taint from the brain.