[Basic]: Be Nice Mafia

[Sili Quirrels]

specific questions are okay, but not wots.

[Cass]

I have even less to go on with Yates, but three things rub me the wrong way so far:

 

i) He was the first to link me with Sili (yes, OMGUS!);

ii) He 'corrects/contradicts' me saying it was Town that first brought up the possibility of me being scum in that game,  but then when I say I'm pretty sure it was Scum/Kiv, he checks, gets the link and says 'Nope. It was Darthe.' (Darthe was scum);

iii) He's giving me 'advice', it feels slightly like what Kiv did, and I'm not sure if that's 'normal' for him or if it makes him more likely to be scum.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Kinda feels like the same as my first game where the Scum mostly said 'I have her as Town,' and then carefully insinuated it was possible I could be Scum because it was plausible that I could be being helped. The doubt that move cast over the rest of Town haunted/followed me for the whole freaking game.

FTR - it was Town that brought up the possibility of you being scum in that game. I bring this up only in an effort to prevent confusion regarding potential narrative spinning accusations that could follow.

See? That's me being nice to a new mafia player! Go me!

 

 

 

 

I'm pretty darn sure it was Kiv, and thus Scum, that got that ball rolling. Can't do it right now but I'll try and find the link tonight... If I'm right, Yates, that's not exactly how I'd go about defining 'nice'.

Nope. It was Darthe. I only remembered because I had a good chuckle about it and I think we mentioned something in the scum QT about how nice it was to have Town doing our dirty work.    
 

FWIW I really don't like people pairing me with Sili at this point, considering he's openly the one I've found most sus (Sorry Sili if I'm tinfoiling again).

Don't worry about it too much. It's early in the game and just a running theory based on a page and half or so of content. Be yourself and post naturally. I think this kind of paranoia is probably a good look for you though and exactly what I was trying to extract from you. Tentative early Town lean. That's a carrot for you!

With that said, I *do* want to help you out.

Ok *gets serious* Have sat down and re-read to here (Thane's post #80).

In a nutshell, my gut reads this far are that Sili, followed by possibly Clov and Yates, are coming across somewhat wilfish.

I'm going to leave the Sili read alone because you have explained it. I'll also let Clov talk to you about your read on him. What's the "wilfish" lean on me? Is it because I tied you to Sili? If that's the sum total of your suspicion, I feel compelled to offer some unsolicited advice [obviously this is all assuming you are Town, as I suspect]. First, don't immediately assume that someone is scummy just because they call you scummy. Look at the logic behind it and the motivation. Do a fair assessment. If you don't, you get accused of "oh my gosh you stink!" [OMGUS - edited for ponies]. And second, don't worry too much about how you look. Just post your unfiltered thoughts. If you are Town, you can always explain your thoughts as being Town driven because, guess what, they are Town driven.

Keep going with your Sili case. I'm looking forward to seeing how the two of you interact going forward and given some flips.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

@ Yates 

- Can you explain denying it was scum/Kiv that started the suggestions that I might not be Town in the other game, and then correcting yourself with 'Nope, it was Darthe'?

- Are you buddying me?/Is this normal behaviour for you as Town?

 

@Everyone

I understand the advice/warnings/implications that it's unnecessary/can sound scummy, and I have explained this before, but it is a RL, inherent character flaw of my personality that I hate being wrong/being misunderstood. I will probably always worry about 'what if' I'm wrong and how I'm apparently coming across to others. Because of that, I will probably always tinfoil on everybody/worry that I'm tinfoiling on everybody/over-explain everything when I am Town . I can't help it *rolls eyes*. This is just me and it does not mean I'm scum. And honestly, I know people tout that it seems suss, but I still think if more of us did this as Town, and put more effort into explaining where we're coming from/clearing up misconceptions/miscommunications, there would be less mislynching/less scummy wins.

 

Anyway, It's almost 4am here and I'm both exhausted and not supposed to be doing all-nighters again this game, so that's it in a nutshell and me trying to be succinct.

 

I'm off to bed, will be back occasionally/posting when I can again tomorrow. Ninight :)

[Sili Quirrels]

paranoia is actually a town tell because it's hard to fake consistently.

[Cass]

cass, you're tunneling. confirmation bias is really strong.

 

 

too much clique. i'm out - don't care about defending myself.

 

i'll help with reads and stuff to eod.

 

 

specific questions are okay, but not wots.

 

 

Back because I can't help but be suckered right back in. *g*

 

Sili, come on, if you're Town, this isn't helpful either. 

 

I did give you specific questions, as well as my WoT - If we say the first one doesn't count, will you at least agree to starting by giving me your view on those?

 

Specifically:

 

- Why should we be reading you as Town?

- What's the difference in your mind between a Town 'read' and a Town 'lean'?

- What was your reason for suggesting Clov was a likely Wolf? Do you have a reason for not elaborating at the time?

- You said chopping and changing is normal for you, and that you like to 'give your reads breathing room', but you 'pushed' Clov at least twice before suddenly dropping him and saying he actually seemed fine. Why?

- Why is jmm's question about the number of wolves scummy?

- How can you say you have Clov as Town because your interactions were 'likely v/v violence', but then claim you're 'spewed' clear if he is Scum? I can't follow that logic/don't see anything that points to either of these btw.

 

 

I can't tell if your tone is truly disgruntled or just plain cop-out scummy. Like I said, I hate misunderstandings/miscommunication. You know I'm the first to admit I get caught up in tinfoil/confbias - I am asking you to help me change that in regards to you if you're Town. If you are Town, communicate and help explain where I'm going wrong. (Please).

 

As much as I will hate my vote if I am wrong, at this point you're giving me nothing in the way of reasons/vibes to change it... help me out!

 

 

 

Ok, I'm really off to bed now everyone... *g* gl!

[Thane Vakarian]

nights Cass, now off to bed you!

[Clovdyx]

 

@ Clov - Just that it was odd that he would 'call' me Town 'like everyone else' but do it in a way that casts doubt/insinuates that I might be different from the others he listed...

Kinda feels like the same as my first game where the Scum mostly said 'I have her as Town,' and then carefully insinuated it was possible I could be Scum because it was plausible that I could be being helped. The doubt that move cast over the rest of Town haunted/followed me for the whole freaking game.

I feel like it was a search for something similar to push against me in this game: 'I have her as Town, BUT she could be pulling the wool over your eyes/could be Scum now because even though she's fairly new, she's had experience being Scum before...'

Since I know I'm Town again (and probably also because I'm once bitten, twice shy) it pings/makes me wary.

Does that make any sense? (I'm typing this on phone whilst trying not to ignore the toddler - let me know if doesn't)

Also, you read the last game, right? Do you think something different??

@ Sili - Do you have links to a recent Town game at all?

Going out to lunch/running errands now, back tonight when the kid's in bed - GL!

 

I was more concerned with him using a conditional he already knew the answer to.  That is, he's somewhat familiar with the games you've played, so he new the answer to  "Have you played a bunch of scum games?" would be no.  That would allow him to lock you in as town, based on what he said earlier.

 

Basically a cheap way to justify a TMI "read".

 

I dont think i would read me as a wolf if i knew me so i dont see what u see tress.

Current reads are

Yates town
Clov town
Cass town
Tress town
Bfg town

Jmm scum.

Expect me to itterate heavily in the background. Sometimes ppl find it fishy that i nudge and swap targets but i like to give reads breathing room. It also creates content. If something is important ill usually elaborate to persuade people

 

What makes you think BFG is town?  Jmm scum?  Neither of those seem like they should be above null to me.

 

 

Thane is also town in the derp clear sort of way.

 

He says the wolf instead of a wolf. Its a tentative meta read premised on him being selective about his word choice if he ever rands mafia for me.

 

....what?

[Sili Quirrels]

Cass,

 

When the fact I haven't read the sign up thread, when I joined only a few days ago, is used against me it feels erronious. I'm not obligated to know everything, to read everyone the same way, nor to account for your tinfoil. (@Clov: I haven't played with Cass for two months)

 

I missed the questions since I was on mobile, so here I go:

 

 

- Why should we be reading you as Town?
- What's the difference in your mind between a Town 'read' and a Town 'lean'?
- What was your reason for suggesting Clov was a likely Wolf? Do you have a reason for not elaborating at the time?
- You said chopping and changing is normal for you, and that you like to 'give your reads breathing room', but you 'pushed' Clov at least twice before suddenly dropping him and saying he actually seemed fine. Why?
- Why is jmm's question about the number of wolves scummy?
- How can you say you have Clov as Town because your interactions were 'likely v/v violence', but then claim you're 'spewed' clear if he is Scum? I can't follow that logic/don't see anything that points to either of these btw.

 

-My engagement in the thread is good. I play this game to problem solve and my wolf game usually lags behind in this regard.

-A read is a stated opinion while a lean is a stance. The former is less permanent, sometimes.

-I was anxious to find scum so the first person to post something snarky caught my eye. I felt his soft nudge was unwarranted and premature given it was page 1. I didn't elaborate since sometimes wolves ask why a person is reading them this or that, but clov is experienced and knew I was in an awkward position and didn't have a strong case so it meant very little. I would approach it differently given another opportunity.

-'at least twice'. How is it at least, and since when did I push him twice? I reminded him when it was apparent he wouldn't respond readily. To build a case twice on the same person I would have needed to adjust my reads three times. e.g. null -> scum -> town/null -> scum.

 

My process was null -> scum -> town. I changed my mind when his responses demonstrated a good level of engagement and insight; I read his nitpicking as genuine for clov (but I don't know him very well), and the conversation was remniscent of ones I've had with past villagers like csarmi or cory, and quite possibly clov in our one game together.

 

-The question was too detailed for me; for jmm it felt well thought out and premature. e.g. he says 'one or two scum probably'. He never responded to Clov's remark and he hasn't offered any useful input to gauge where he stands.

 

His latest post:

 

Truth.  I am very much taking that mindset, especially with Sili, since I tunneled him for a while last game 

like, he knows i'm town, otherwise the matter of tunneling me when I'm scum wouldn't be significant to him. Why not tunnel me again, right?

 

-I rarely if ever engage/interact with my wolfpack. I don't have the knack for it. Clov also nudged me repeatadly and took me to task quite readily.

[Sili Quirrels]

 

 

I dont think i would read me as a wolf if i knew me so i dont see what u see tress.

 

Current reads are

 

Yates town

Clov town

Cass town

Tress town

Bfg town

 

Jmm scum.

 

Expect me to itterate heavily in the background. Sometimes ppl find it fishy that i nudge and swap targets but i like to give reads breathing room. It also creates content. If something is important ill usually elaborate to persuade people

 

What makes you think BFG is town?  Jmm scum?  Neither of those seem like they should be above null to me.

 

 

Thane is also town in the derp clear sort of way.

 

He says the wolf instead of a wolf. Its a tentative meta read premised on him being selective about his word choice if he ever rands mafia for me.

 

....what?

 

In a word, Jmm didn't sound curious, and the erronious caveat doesn't help matters - saying '2 or 1 probably' implies a disingenuous taxing consideration of the question beforehand. He knows it's 2, that's why he put it first, and he added probably for posturing's sake.

 

It was probably bfg's casual response that compelled me to put her down as town.

[Clovdyx]

Quote chopping ITT.

 

Sili

In a nutshell, at this point, I'm totally reading you as scum (again), but I'm interested in some elaboration from you before I vote.

- What are your thoughts/reactions to the above?
- Why should we be reading you as Town?
- What's the difference in your mind between a Town 'read' and a Town 'lean'?
- What was your reason for suggesting Clov was a likely Wolf? Do you have a reason for not elaborating at the time?
- You said chopping and changing is normal for you, and that you like to 'give your reads breathing room', but you 'pushed' Clov at least twice before suddenly dropping him and saying he actually seemed fine. Why?
- Why is jmm's question about the number of wolves scummy?
- How can you say you have Clov as Town because your interactions were 'likely v/v violence', but then claim you're 'spewed' clear if he is Scum? I can't follow that logic/don't see anything that points to either of these btw.

 

 

The whole post seems like a genuine attempt at trying to get a read on Sili, so I think that looks really good for Cass.  The questions in red especially sound like she's trying to understand how he's playing.  Only way she's mafia here is if she's going for a very long set up on him being inconsistent (or completely wasting time, I guess).  I don't think that's the case.  I'm pretty comfortable calling Cass town for where we're at.

 

 

My plan is to pocket you.  See how you respond.  Serious question; when is the last time I read you wrong?  I want to see that comfortable, free thinking, shoot from the hip Thane Town so I'm setting you up for it.  And if a "Be Nice" game isn't the proper format to get you to that place, I don't know what is.

 

Yates, can you elaborate on what you mean by pocket him here?  The end of the post seems to be a reasonably pro-town thing to do, but I'm getting hung up on the first sentence.  You don't normally see that expression used as a positive thing, or as a way of helping somebody establish themselves, as you seem to be doing with Thane.

 

 

I'll need to account for his lack of games but my thinking was his posts were too 'excited', and didn't say much. He only asks one question, how many mafia there are in an 8 person team with his second post. -felt like he might have done it just for town cred the way it was phrased.

 

 

Jmm, to that point.

 

 

 

 

 

Greetings and salutations, fellow ponies. 

-----------------

This is the extent of my MLP knowledge: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zHZj8Xp-Ik

 

 

Experienced mafia-ers: 

With 8 are we looking at 2 or 1 mafia probably? 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't see how you can possibly say he's been particularly excited.  More importantly, why is that alignment indicative?  I think most people associate having fun and being easy going as towntelling, because it reduces the concern they're hiding something.  I don't know there's much truth to it, but it seems to make more sense than somebody being scummy for it.

 

The second point is reasonable enough, I suppose.

 

Massive quote chopping in the one below.

 

 

 

- Picks up the 'pressure' on Sili. Uses Sili's 'read' of me as the base:

Valid but ... *shoves on tinfoil hat*... parts 'fit' my current theory that Sili and Clov are W-W, and my concern that I'm being set up by Scum again.

 

- Says he's confused as to how Sili can take a hard stance on my alignment based on my first post.

Agree with this, but then

 

- Asks why I'm 'incapable' of making that post as scum?

My opening being null is a valid point in theory, but in practice I don't like that he uses the word 'incapable' here, in a tone that suggests he's saying I'm actually 'capable' of making that post as scum. Same potential as before. Scum casting doubt on my alignment based on 'questions' of my ability. Sili 'brushes this off' by saying 'she's not incapable?'. Tinfoily as all bollocks? Maybe. Either way, I don't like it. 

 

 

- Pushes harder at Sili for saying 'All my reads are tentative of course' so early on, and questions the caveat Sili put on his read of me compared to others.

This actually came across as Town to me (and was the part I was referring to when I mentioned the partial mind-meld with Clov).

 

- Talks about the 'relevance' of their 'different' opinions and the fact that he's considering Sili might be scum.

Ok, but slightly off. Feels kind of fake. He say's he'd rather 'try to judge' Sili on his reads than on 'meaningless posts' from the first page, but did judge him there. And then agrees that 'miscommunication' doesn't make someone scum and (?over) explains the possibility that Sili's PM may have made him scum and that it's his job to figure that out. Appeals for Town cred by essentially explaining stuff that is rather obvious, and then associating himself with 'everyone's' likely reasoning (bold in spoiler).

 

 

 

 

Questions me directly

- Says he's not sure how me being set up as scum by scum would work.

- Asks me what I'm thinking/to explain.

Maybe I wasn't overly clear in my initial statements to Sili, but I found Clov asking for explanations on this odd because i)at the end of the last game, I thought it was pretty obvious that this had been one of scum's main ploys when it came to me, and ii) I distinctly remember Clov commenting on the DT/after the game. I kind of made these points in my response (bold in the spoiler). He hasn't posted since asking me the initial question, so I'm still waiting to see what comes up in his response to my explanation.

 

Other

Pretty much null

 

- Jokes in response to Yate's first post

Seemed purposefully flippant, but not necessarily scummy.

 

- Answers jmm's question about the number of scum likely to be in this game

Says two. Initially I took this as Town/null, and nobody else experienced has contradicted the answer so it's probably correct, but, just to dot i's and cross t's can the mod/other experienced players please confirm this is right, please?

 

 

@ Clov

 

It's not much to go on yet, but already I'm reading your posts with a scummish lean, especially in relation to Sili/points raised by Sili. At this point you seem to be the second most likely wolf to me. I know I haven't played a proper game with you and could just be tinfoiling/reading you all wrong so I'm interested to know your thoughts/figure this out further.

 

- What are your responses/reactions to the above?

- What is your current read on Sili, and why? 

 

 

Red - Well, yeah, that would be the implication there.  I think your opening post was pretty null, so the way Sili presented his thoughts on it seemed strange - I didn't feel there was anything that was alignment indicative so him implying you would have had to get massive Mafia (alignment, not the game) experience to make it as Mafia was off.  Bold red behind it though is a bad conclusion, though.  I'm not "casting doubt" on your alignment, and my stance had nothing to do with your ability.  I was casting doubt on what appeared to be a strong read off nothing.

 

As for the rest of it, honestly, most of it seems to be paranoia/tinfoiling.  You and I seem to have been seeing the thread the same way early on.  From your POV, I can understand (and appreciate) some concern that maybe I'm trying to side with you or something, but I think it's a little early to worry about that.

 

Section highlighted in blue is something that stood out to me as more than just tinfoiling.  If you feel it felt fake, I can't really do/say anything to refute that.  You're wrong about me judging him based off the first page fluff, though.  My read from him in post #29 is based on him

 

1) moving on from a presumable joke vote of BFG

2) his "vibes"

 

Effort isn't much to go on, but for the first few hours of the phase, I can appreciate somebody trying to get down to business.  Like I said, it wasn't very strong, but it was a better option that making a guess based on initial posts and mod-directed spam.

 

Now I'm feeling worse about him.  His justification for reading you as town as early as he did seems based off nothing, and his explanation on reading jmm just doesn't make sense to me.  It doesn't seem like he's reading the same thread I am.

[Clovdyx]

In a word, Jmm didn't sound curious, and the erronious caveat doesn't help matters - saying '2 or 1 probably' implies a disingenuous taxing consideration of the question beforehand. He knows it's 2, that's why he put it first, and he added probably for posturing's sake.

 

It was probably bfg's casual response that compelled me to put her down as town.

 

 

I guess I just don't feel his question was very significant, but I at least can see where you're coming from with the bold.  Suggesting he put two first because he know it is plausible.  It certainly sounds awkward to read it in that order, rather than "1 or 2".

[Yates]

(Darthe was scum)

 Oh crap.  I forgot he was!  Not that it makes a big difference.  So you were wrong about it being Kiv and I was wrong about it being Town.  *shrug*  Point is, it didn't *have* to be scum that had brought that up.  I was lynched in my most recent Town game because of POE "just in case" there was a GF because I guess people thought I was the only one that could be a GF. [incidentally, that's the last game I played with Sili scum and he was lynched D2]  Point being, never underestimate the power of Townfoil.

 

Are you buddying me?/Is this normal behaviour for you as Town?

I'm buddying everyone. This is a friendly game. I'm a friendly guy. As far as "is it normal" for me? Sure. Why not? I will be friendly to scum suspects to see if I can get them to slip and I will be friendly to Obv Town because they are obv Town. You've only played with me once, right? In the game where I was killed N1 because the SK was scared I was the Cop? [lol] This, from that same game, is what a Yates Town post looks like on D1. I just happened to choose my first content post of the game but it should give you an idea. I'm not typically all that prickly unless/until I have to be.

 

@Everyone

I understand the advice/warnings/implications that it's unnecessary/can sound scummy, and I have explained this before, but it is a RL, inherent character flaw of my personality that I hate being wrong/being misunderstood.

Don't worry about it. I've likely given you all the advice I plan on giving you. You are officially a mafia veteran. Good luck!

[Yates]

 

My plan is to pocket you.  See how you respond.  Serious question; when is the last time I read you wrong?  I want to see that comfortable, free thinking, shoot from the hip Thane Town so I'm setting you up for it.  And if a "Be Nice" game isn't the proper format to get you to that place, I don't know what is.

Yates, can you elaborate on what you mean by pocket him here?

 

Sure. Reread that with air quotes around the word "pocket." You could probably replace that word with "White Knight" and still get the same basic gist.

[Sili Quirrels]

Yeah, but like of course that isn't enough. Maybe he's heteroclectic, or perhaps he was buying town cred. but as a town. One awkward post doesn't make someone a wolf, so I need to know a lot more from him.

 

Eh, I say again - i read cass as town because it wasn't self-conscious and she said she was excited in a genuine way.

[Yates]

Suggesting he put two first because he know it is plausible.  It certainly sounds awkward to read it in that order, rather than "1 or 2".

This is the quote in question, yes?

Experienced mafia-ers: 

 

With 8 are we looking at 2 or 1 mafia probably?

I think this is JMM's 2nd or 3rd game here? Don't think it's a huge deal.

[Clovdyx]

 

 

My plan is to pocket you.  See how you respond.  Serious question; when is the last time I read you wrong?  I want to see that comfortable, free thinking, shoot from the hip Thane Town so I'm setting you up for it.  And if a "Be Nice" game isn't the proper format to get you to that place, I don't know what is.

Yates, can you elaborate on what you mean by pocket him here?

 

Sure. Reread that with air quotes around the word "pocket." You could probably replace that word with "White Knight" and still get the same basic gist.

 

 

Should I take that to mean you're already reading Thane as likely town?  Or just going to act in a way that encourages him to get there?

[jmm]

Re my initial question: I know 8 is a bit of an awkward number as far as mafia is concerned - you could easily have two or one mafia in the game and no one would bat an eyelash.  However, one mafia seems more unfair to the mafia than two seems to the town, so since two seemed more likely to me, I put it first.  I'll admit, it was an interesting phrasing of the question.  

[BFG]

Good evening :)

[Yates]

Should I take that to mean you're already reading Thane as likely town?  Or just going to act in a way that encourages him to get there?

The later.

[Yates]

Good evening :)

*A WILD BFG APPEARS*

[BFG]

Lol, mixed reads on pretty much everyone at the moment.

 

Jmm how much of you play in your last game was influenced by being an IC?

[BFG]

 

Good evening :)

*A WILD BFG APPEARS*

 

Just a normal BFG I'm afraid :/

[BFG]

So I'll start with the easy stuff, Cass's paranoia seems newish town to me.

 

Clov's early involvement in the game is also townish from him, although it's been a while since I've seen him as mafia.

[Sili Quirrels]

Good start. I concur.

[BFG]

 

 

But if your read on Cass is also tentative, why didn't you caveat it the same way and instead used the caveat that she would be town unless she's played some games as mafia?

Sili-Cass scum team? Is possible.

 

 

 

 

TBH though Sili, I find this question slightly odd coming from you...

 

You wilfing against me again?

Sili and Virgin scum in an awkward distancing/buddying Tango? Oh yeah. I can definitely see it.

 

 

I won't say this hasn't occurred to me, but I'm not sure it's likely.

 

Sili generally comes across as ridiculously scummy to me, and this early game is no exception.  Cass giving me a town-ish vibe at the moment.

 

 

 

Town vibe from Clov.  Null on BFG.

 

*peers around waiting for Thane*

Why no read on Yates who you're mostly interacting with? Why am I null but nothing on Jmm?

[BFG]

Sili, given 2 mafia who are you most likely to tinfoil on at the moment?