[Basic]: Be Nice Mafia

[Sili Quirrels]

I don't remember tinfoiling on you in the marlfox game probably because you were a tracker. Earlier in the game I did, but only a little because you weren't town telling due to a hydra partner.

[Sili Quirrels]

If you're town it wouldn't surprise me. Sometimes I tunnel a person too hard when I should really leave them alone. I'm going to leave you alone now.

 

Your refutation was good(?) - not sure.

[Yates]

I think Clov is forgetting someone dies if we no lynch.

Actually, I may be wrong on this. I forgot Tina said no lynch is allowed but I'm not sure if that means no lynch counts as a majority "lynch" or if it just means we didn't reach a majority lynch and thus someone gets randomed.

 

@Moddess - Halp?

[Sili Quirrels]

let's' lynch jmm unless anyone has someone better

[Songstress]

I'm here, I'm here... feeling less urk-y than last night (and this morning), although still a bit iffy

 

Lemme go back and grab some stuff that stuck out at me while reading up...

[Songstress]

 

I think Clov is forgetting someone dies if we no lynch.

Actually, I may be wrong on this. I forgot Tina said no lynch is allowed but I'm not sure if that means no lynch counts as a majority "lynch" or if it just means we didn't reach a majority lynch and thus someone gets randomed.

 

@Moddess - Halp?

 

 

I'm not the moddess, but I'm pretty sure she's working by standard DM rules here.  If she allows "no lynch" votes, then if we achieve a majority on "no lynch", no lynch will occur.  Nobody dies.

 

There's no point in allowing people to vote for no lynch if it does nothing, and she plans to random kill someone anyway.  

[Songstress]

 

 

Yeah, yates is lying. I don't think anyone will believe me but... :/

 

Lying about what?  

 

I might be tunneling yates. It's hard to tell, so the least I can do is tell you what I find irksome about his poe list.

 

If my arguments are good maybe it will be persuasive... and if they aren't maybe I'm mistaken.

 

This is the post I claim he lies in,

By POE all of the scum are in you, Tress, BFG, and Thane.

 

Cass is Town 100% of the time, here. I don't recall seeing Clov scum but this is a pretty solid Clov Town approach to the game. Thane hasn't contributed enough and Tress has a medical excuse to not be contributing. Lack of content players are hard to judge. I'd feel good lynching in that pool and investigating there as well.

 

poe - Yates hasn't substantiated enough town reads to form a healthy poe day 1. The only reason poe is there is to imply he's done more work than he has.

poe includes 4 scum - 4 out of 7 players isn't a poe. it's a crapshoot.

Thane hasn't contributed enough - Thane isn't known for case building, but he has said a little about everyone. I think Yates misses it because he's looking for 'notable' content only which is wolfy.

Tress has a medical excuse - Yates is intensely aware of player status but not player content. To say neither thane or tress have much content to speak of is insanely reductive, and begging for poor reads.

Jmm isn't mentioned - Yates was reading jmm as null, but does not include him in a purported poe over 4 others. This means tress, thane, me, and bfg are all scum leans to him.

It's hard to judge low content players - Uses this to excuse Thane and Tress in a poe,  but does not include the lowest content poster.

Hedges on scum leans due to low content - instead of building a case on them.

Insterts clov as a new town read - but does not include jmm in the same breath.

 

Sili - Here's where I'm at IRT Yates...

 

 

 

 

 

You claim she's a scum lean but you treat her as Town. Do you not recall this discussion?

You didn't, as far as I can tell, imply anything like that.

 

Not to make this into too big of a deal but, what?? You claim you called BFG a scum suspect. I acknowledge that. I read it. It's pretty clear. Then you go on to respond to BFG throughout all of Page 7 in a tone that suggests [to me] you already know she's Town. [Granted; tone reading is a skill I'm trying to hone.] So when you claim I never "commented" on the fact that you called BFG a scum read, you are missing the fact that it is implied that I'm commenting on it when I ask BFG what she thinks about you treating her like you know she's Town. This question only really makes sense if I already know that you called her scummy and thus your tone made the question pertinent given your stated read. Follow?

 

You eschew,

I'm waiting for my scum list to town tell, then I'll start over by adjusting my expectations and rereading.

 

Yeah. Pretty much. I actually kind of wait for ANYONE to Town tell to a degree I recognize so I can focus my scum hunting elsewhere. I kind of pride myself on not Town tunneling and think I've done a pretty decent job of late. That's how I accomplish that feat. But what's the point of this statement [accusation?]?

 

 

From your quoted excerpts, coded blue. I had bfg as scum by poe. It was not a strong stance and I was looking for reasons to change my mind. I imply this by the quote you left out and my inclusion of clov as a scum lean.

What did I leave out? It's possible I misunderstood something or wasn't following your train of thought...

 

You promised you would go into detail how I treat Bfg as town. The most I think you can say is we cooperate to meet an ends, and that's pretty much all I got from reading thrice. You'll have to help me.

Best laid plans of mice and men. I'm just going to call it "tone" rather then spend the 1000 words it would take to explain why that appears to be the case.

 

The point is linking players to me is a good part of your content, and so I ask, how is insinuating scum partners without case building early day 1 without a single flip conducive to hunting scum?

I was being cheeky with you and Cass. Really, I was trying to coax a reaction out of you two, as you already suspected. Cass fell for it and I think her reaction was on point. So she got the first Equestria Town Carrot. Your response is automagically void because you knew what I was doing and admitted to it.

 

Your tone with BFG, given your stated opinion of her alignment, struck me ass odd and is a completely separate event. It's just coincidence, really, that it happened to be you. Again. Or, maybe it's not coincidence so much as simple math.

 

It's pure tinfoil right?

See? You did it again. Now you are treating ME like you know I'm Town. It can't be "tinfoil" unless you know I'm Town.

 

Like, say I flip Scum, what are you going to do - lynch bfg because we worked together for a page? From a villager's point of view (e.g. mine) it seems frivolous and maybe destructive depending on the roster's gullibility, because I could very well be in anti-spew and as a matter of fact, scum treating a player like town usually means that player is town.

 

Like jmm has been doing for me.

 

And you say I've been doing for bfg.

I agree with the bold. If you were to flip scum, I would think that would clear me, BFG, and Cass [to a lesser degree]. At least it would weigh favorably in my evaluation of BFG and Cass's alignments.

 

 

 

I don't really get this impression at all from their interactions.  There is something that stood out to me, but I'm hoping you can give an example or explain what you mean before I show it.

As I told Sili, it's mostly tone. Let me see if I can pull up a quote or two that really emphasizes what I mean...

 

Okay, here's I think the exchange that felt too familiar to me:

 

Lol, misunderstood what you said, I agree with the general meta on Thane. I disagree with 'the wolf' though, it reads as a continuation of 'teh mafia' started by Tress and thus a deliberate use of words and not an unconscious use.

ah i see. i'm still leaning town on him but i'm a little more scared now. i'll be watching him carefully.

Sure. MAYBE Sili is just "working together," as he says. But something about that doesn't feel natural if Sili is assuming BFG is scum.

 

But the other thing that bothers me is the same thing I just busted Sili for:

Sili, given 2 mafia who are you most likely to tinfoil on at the moment?

Here, BFG is assuming Sili is Town. That's why I said earlier that it felt like at least one of them knew the other's alignment. And it's not like BFG really went after Sili. That whole page reads like a limp distancing argument. And that's in my minus column for BFG. This isn't really something I was prepared to talk about but it seems as though the cat's out of the bag so let's make it public and discuss...

 

 

He made it seem like he was comfortable enough leaving his argument about the link between BFG/you as tone.  I pressed for further information, and he obliged.  That's by no means locks him in as town, but him being willing to work with me gives him a little bit of credit.  He's displaying a similar thought process to me ("tinfoil" vs "suspicion")*  

 

And his argument about linking you makes sense.  You named BFG as a scum read...immediately after you agreed with her reads.  You seem to have taken her suspicion of Thane to heart ("I'm more scared of him now").  I don't expect players to immediately write off anything their suspects say, but if you're that in sync with her, why should she be a scum read?  Is everything she's saying a TMI-based read that she's gifting us?

Yates asserts tone is somehow this nebulous undefined quality, then a couple posts later dispenses with the how's and why's of it's inner workings when pressed by someone else. It's queer. Not to mention the two topics are actually over two seperate claims, so he isn't continuing the same argument. Yates starts by declaring I treat Bfg like she's town, and later asserts I simply let go of a scum lean. The latter is a far less notable offense, but it can be substantiated to a degree.

 

I interpret the case as such: why wasn't I building a case on bfg if I had her as scum, and my answer is simple: she was never a scum lean. She asked me for my poe and since I was discerning her alignment at the time I put her in my lower bracket. Assume it was a null-scum read for absence of information and my posts make perfect sense because it's exactly what happened. I even express a tentative quality about those leans in particular.

 

And I mean, since when does cooperation and agreement with certain reads lead to being fatilly connected? wtf. I liked her content, the arguments presented, and I agreed with them. And I especially did after I went back and checked to see what she meant.

 

 

Is it just me, or did anyone else read this and think "the majority of this post sounds NOTHING like how Sili usually posts"?

 

[Songstress]

[v]No Lynch[/v]

 

 

By my math, we have about 18 hours left and need 5 votes of 8 on one target or it goes random.  I think Cass is definitely town, and I still like Yates to be town.  Between them and myself, RNGesus has about a 40% chance of hitting someone I'm not cool lynching.  Not great odds.

 

Also think NL should give us an extra day phase.  If there's only one kill a night - highly likely given the game size -, then a mislynch today and tomorrow (coupled with a successful kill each night) seals it following N2.  No Lynch makes the earliest loss D3.

 

I'm willing to vote no lynch if necessary to achieve a majority, although my preference is to lynch our strongest suspect for mafia. If not enough people are confident in their scum reads, no lynch would be an OK choice in this small of a game, IMO.

[Sili Quirrels]

i spent a long time on it. was it good different or bad different?

[Songstress]

Full reads list:

 

2. Clov - Town lean. Reading through his posts, he's asking good questions, and I can follow where he's coming from. The No Lynch suggestion is a pretty good one if we're not confident in a mafia suspect.

 

3. Yates - Gut wants to say town, but Yates has been known to fool me so I have to keep that little bit of tinfoil in the back of my head and say "mild town lean with an option to do a 180". His early Sili/Cass and Sili/BFG commentary was actually very close to my own thoughts, so I won't mark him down for "linking".  I think he's explained himself well in response to Cass and Sili.

 

4. Thane - not a lot to go on, but the reads he's posted I can see as legit.  I'll put him in the null pile for now, slightly on the town side.

 

5. jmm  - Still waiting for elaboration on more of his reads, which don't all make a lot of sense to me.  The interaction between him and Sili reads a little strange to me, and I'm not sure what to make of it.  Questionable, slight scum lean. 

 

6. Cass - Strong town lean.  The #work is phenomenal. Could do with a tiny bit less tinfoiling, but if she's scum, I'll concede right now.  

 

7. BFG - Initially was leaning slightly scum here, but her responses to the (good IMO) points Yates and Clov were making were actually quite reasonable. Mixed read right now, I can see it both ways.  I also noticed in reading through her posts that there were a couple of things directed at me that I skimmed over, I'll come back to those questions.

 

8. Sili - Was really not fond of the post announcing that he likes to change up his reads a lot which people find scummy - I'm never a fan of "pre-excusing scummy behavior" posts, TBH, regardless of whether it seemed like a good idea at the time.  It comes across as self-conscious and draws more attention to it.  The reasons he's given for town reads and scum reads have been super thin and questionable in most cases.  Especially finding his interactions with jmm awkward - see this post and this post where he takes the "2 or 1 mafia" question a step further and tries to imply that jmm is actually suggesting/entertaining the possibility of 3 mafia.  I'm willing to bet that everyone in this game expects there to be 2 mafia, and trying to push the idea that jmm is suggesting there may be 3, while also suggesting that he said "2" before "1" because he knew there were 2 (instead of because he thought it was a more likely answer).... not a lot of sense.  I don't think his responses to Cass and Yates have been particularly convincing...  overall, leaning mafia here.

[Songstress]

 

 

 

But if your read on Cass is also tentative, why didn't you caveat it the same way and instead used the caveat that she would be town unless she's played some games as mafia?

Sili-Cass scum team? Is possible.

 

 

 

 

TBH though Sili, I find this question slightly odd coming from you...

 

You wilfing against me again?

Sili and Virgin scum in an awkward distancing/buddying Tango? Oh yeah. I can definitely see it.

 

 

I won't say this hasn't occurred to me, but I'm not sure it's likely.

 

Sili generally comes across as ridiculously scummy to me, and this early game is no exception.  Cass giving me a town-ish vibe at the moment.

 

 

 

Town vibe from Clov.  Null on BFG.

 

*peers around waiting for Thane*

Why no read on Yates who you're mostly interacting with? Why am I null but nothing on Jmm?

 

 

At the time, I was still forming thoughts on Yates.  He's one who has definitely had the ability to fool me in the past and I wasn't ready to declare an opinion on him yet.

 

As for jmm, he slipped my mind  Would have had him as null at the time of those posts, though.

[Songstress]

 

 

I don't associate town Thane with 'guarded' play or words...

Welp. That's the one tell I was hinting at in my Thane post.

 

What do you make of the fact that Sili is talking to you as if he knows you are Town given your [and his] statement here???

 

 

<<<deleted>>>

 

His latest post:

 

 

Truth. I am very much taking that mindset, especially with Sili, since I tunneled him for a while last game

like, he knows i'm town, otherwise the matter of tunneling me when I'm scum wouldn't be significant to him. Why not tunnel me again, right?

 

Good point, and quoted again so he doesn't miss it.

 

 

I find it quite curious that Sili only has one vote given that so many people are finding him scummy, but I don't know what to make of it given the size of the game, I think I'll need to sleep on it.

Curious? Couple of thoughts here:

1. Just because Sili is holding a fork, it doesn't mean he stole the cake.

2. It's WAY early in the game.

3. Curse of the small game. I think people tend to be more cautious with votes in small games.

 

Now I have a Sili-BFG relationship to resolve...

 

Lol, it's actually his least reliable tell (but sorry), according to Tommy Thane was able to fake looseness and tone for a game (of course Tommy was possibly mafia in the game he said that - soon after SpaceBalls), so not sure how reliable an indication this actually is) there are other tells. He's sort of borderline for me so far.

 

Because Sili had a good point. Which Jmm still hasn't answered. Jmm tunnelled Silo (his words) in a game where Sili was mafia, why would he worry about that?

 

I find Sili very hard to read, and I typically read him scummy, this game his early involvement is in line with his town game, however he makes so many 'weird' statements and his opinion changes with the wind (if it wasn't the wrong author 'words are wind' would describe him well :) but that describes both mafia and town game) that it's hard to have faith n the read.

 

 

You played with Jmm last game? What's your opinion of him this game? Same to Tress who nodded that game and anyone else who played it.

 

 

The point Sili raised about tunneling is a good one - although some of the other points he's pushing jmm on aren't iMO.

 

Since there's only the one game to go off of, and jmm had an ace in the hole in that game that allowed him to play however he wanted, I don't know that previous game meta is going to help us this time.  Aside from his tunneling on Sili, I seem to recall thinking that some of his reads were weird, but he didn't explain them.  And he's not explaining them here either, so that's no help.  

 

The interactions between Sili and jmm are kinda throwing me for a loop - I'm leaning mafia on Sili right now for multiple reasons, and he's pushing jmm hard as scum.  My best guess is at least one of them is, although both of them being scum would require Sili to be hardcore distancing and pushing for the lynch of his teammate D1 (with a 2 person team sounds very risky) while the teammate very awkwardly declares him as town.    jmm scum and Sili town is a possibility, but I'm having a hard time with flat-out calling Sili town for the reasons I outlined in my reads list.  

 

I think we need more from jmm, and soon.

[Songstress]

For those who are terrible at time zones (like me, once you get outside the U.S. mainland) - I think deadline is about 13 hours from now.

 

Countdown link:

http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20150110T21&p0=239&msg=DAY+ONE+DEADLINE&csz=1&swk=1

[Sili Quirrels]

tress :/

 

jmm isn't even paying attention to the thread... he doesn't 'care'. last game he 'cared' even when mechanically clear. Why would he be paying less attention this time?

 

You're really sketching me out here.

[BFG]

Just a heads up that I might start having internet problems again :( (I could actually cry) I haven't been able to access DM for the past hour and couldn't access it last night after Cloudflare either

[BFG]

Tress's countdown clock seems right to me

[Sili Quirrels]

i suggested jmm thought there were 3 scum to emphasize a point and catch him in a lie. i thought that was clear.

[BFG]

Sili can you point me to your most recent game as mafia that wasn't Wind in the Door?

[Sili Quirrels]

uh, besides sk and turbo, the wind in the door game tress modded.

[BFG]

I struggle to see that mafia can be as engaged and active in the thread as Sili is this game. Tommy has managed it occasionally, but even then most of the time as mafia he takes a back seat (comparatively speaking). As such I'm leaning Sili as town right now. His presence this game is also completely at odds with his previous game as mafia here, although that wasn't necessarily indicative of his actual mafia game.

[BFG]

Tress you still here?

[Cass]

OK, specifics as promised. I'm going through and highlighting things that either ping to me or I don't understand, starting again with Sili. I'm going to try spoilering parts of quotes I don't think are relevant to each point, because I don't like editing them out. Stuff that stands out to me in particular will be in bold and red. My comments will be below in blue.

 

Here goes. (PART ONE - 'cos according to DM the whole thing has 'too many blocks of quoted text'  )

 

Cass,

 

When the fact I haven't read the sign up thread, when I joined only a few days ago, is used against me it feels erronious. I'm not obligated to know everything, to read everyone the same way, nor to account for your tinfoil. (@Clov: I haven't played with Cass for two months)

 

I missed the questions since I was on mobile, so here I go:

 

 

 

- Why should we be reading you as Town?
- What's the difference in your mind between a Town 'read' and a Town 'lean'?
- What was your reason for suggesting Clov was a likely Wolf? Do you have a reason for not elaborating at the time?
- You said chopping and changing is normal for you, and that you like to 'give your reads breathing room', but you 'pushed' Clov at least twice before suddenly dropping him and saying he actually seemed fine. Why?
- Why is jmm's question about the number of wolves scummy?
- How can you say you have Clov as Town because your interactions were 'likely v/v violence', but then claim you're 'spewed' clear if he is Scum? I can't follow that logic/don't see anything that points to either of these btw.

 

-My engagement in the thread is good. I play this game to problem solve and my wolf game usually lags behind in this regard.

-A read is a stated opinion while a lean is a stance. The former is less permanent, sometimes.

-I was anxious to find scum so the first person to post something snarky caught my eye. I felt his soft nudge was unwarranted and premature given it was page 1. I didn't elaborate since sometimes wolves ask why a person is reading them this or that, but clov is experienced and knew I was in an awkward position and didn't have a strong case so it meant very little. I would approach it differently given another opportunity.

-'at least twice'. How is it at least, and since when did I push him twice? I reminded him when it was apparent he wouldn't respond readily. To build a case twice on the same person I would have needed to adjust my reads three times. e.g. null -> scum -> town/null -> scum.

 

My process was null -> scum -> town. I changed my mind when his responses demonstrated a good level of engagement and insight; I read his nitpicking as genuine for clov (but I don't know him very well), and the conversation was remniscent of ones I've had with past villagers like csarmi or cory, and quite possibly clov in our one game together.

 

-The question was too detailed for me; for jmm it felt well thought out and premature. e.g. he says 'one or two scum probably'. He never responded to Clov's remark and he hasn't offered any useful input to gauge where he stands.

 

His latest post:

 

Truth.  I am very much taking that mindset, especially with Sili, since I tunneled him for a while last game 

like, he knows i'm town, otherwise the matter of tunneling me when I'm scum wouldn't be significant to him. Why not tunnel me again, right?

 

-I rarely if ever engage/interact with my wolfpack. I don't have the knack for it. Clov also nudged me repeatadly and took me to task quite readily.

 

 

 

- I didn't know/can't rely on your saying that you hadn't read the sign up thread and I never said you were 'obligated to know everything, read everyone the same way' or 'account for my ''tinfoil''. I'm all for explaining things if you're feeling defensive but I don't like it when you twist my words, which that sentence feels like you were doing.

 

- That game ended less than a month ago. Link here.

 

 

 

 

 

Cass,

 

When the fact I haven't read the sign up thread, when I joined only a few days ago, is used against me it feels erronious. I'm not obligated to know everything, to read everyone the same way, nor to account for your tinfoil. (@Clov: I haven't played with Cass for two months)

 

I missed the questions since I was on mobile, so here I go:

 

 

 

1. Why should we be reading you as Town?
2.What's the difference in your mind between a Town 'read' and a Town 'lean'?
3. What was your reason for suggesting Clov was a likely Wolf? Do you have a reason for not elaborating at the time?
4. You said chopping and changing is normal for you, and that you like to 'give your reads breathing room', but you 'pushed' Clov at least twice before suddenly dropping him and saying he actually seemed fine. Why?
5. Why is jmm's question about the number of wolves scummy?
6. How can you say you have Clov as Town because your interactions were 'likely v/v violence', but then claim you're 'spewed' clear if he is Scum? I can't follow that logic/don't see anything that points to either of these btw.

 

1 -My engagement in the thread is good. I play this game to problem solve and my wolf game usually lags behind in this regard.

2 -A read is a stated opinion while a lean is a stance. The former is less permanent, sometimes.

3 -I was anxious to find scum so the first person to post something snarky caught my eye. I felt his soft nudge was unwarranted and premature given it was page 1. I didn't elaborate since sometimes wolves ask why a person is reading them this or that, but clov is experienced and knew I was in an awkward position and didn't have a strong case so it meant very little. I would approach it differently given another opportunity.

4-'at least twice'. How is it at least, and since when did I push him twice? I reminded him when it was apparent he wouldn't respond readily. To build a case twice on the same person I would have needed to adjust my reads three times. e.g. null -> scum -> town/null -> scum.

 My process was null -> scum -> town. I changed my mind when his responses demonstrated a good level of engagement and insight; I read his nitpicking as genuine for clov (but I don't know him very well), and the conversation was remniscent of ones I've had with past villagers like csarmi or cory, and quite possibly clov in our one game together.

5 The question was too detailed for me; for jmm it felt well thought out and premature. e.g. he says 'one or two scum probably'. He never responded to Clov's remark and he hasn't offered any useful input to gauge where he stands.

 

His latest post:

Truth.  I am very much taking that mindset, especially with Sili, since I tunneled him for a while last game  

like, he knows i'm town, otherwise the matter of tunneling me when I'm scum wouldn't be significant to him. Why not tunnel me again, right?

 

6 I rarely if ever engage/interact with my wolfpack. I don't have the knack for it. Clov also nudged me repeatadly and took me to task quite readily.

 

Thanks for the answers  . I've added numbers 1-6 to the questions/answers for ease of following here.

 

1. Like I said in the generalised post, I'm glad you answered (and reading since that point, glad you have continued to interact) but I still feel like it took a lot to get you to 'explain' and that seems wilfy. I'll happily agree that you've been active in the thread since the beginning, but that alone doesn't automatically make you Town, and it's not quite the same as having a 'good' engagement - at least not to me...

 

2. Ok, cheers for explaining.

 

3. You felt his 'soft nudge was unwarranted given that it was page 1' and yet you voted BFG on Page 1 because of an emoticon. I mentioned before that I would have been ok to take that vote as a joke vote except you gave a 'proper' explanation when you unvoted and that seemed strange. The rest of your answer here feels like WIFOM. Except for the part where you say you'd approach it differently, what are you getting at there?

 

4. My explanation of 'twice' is that IMO you said you thought he was a wolf/pushed him for potentially being so here and here. I said you pushed him twice, not that you pushed him for two different things. The 'at least' is a disclaimer in case I missed something. WIFOM again for the 'I would have needed to adjust my reads three times... null-> scum -> town/null -> scum' thing. I never said anything like that and your null->scum->town thing could equally have been you backing off as a wolf because you didn't think your argument was going well/that you were going to get anywhere. 

 

5. I was wondering the same question (how many wolves), and asking whether it was one or two makes perfect sense to me, as it's highly unlikely to be anything else. I don't see this as wolfish, and I don't think that the 'probably' sounds overly out of place. I don't personally like jmm's tone or lack of as it makes him hard for me to read (and I find that suspicious in itself), but I don't think he's actually done anything suspicious yet. Because I don't see it as overly suspicious, I do find you jumping on this question somewhat opportunistic and therefore potentially wolfy. The point about the tunneling you when you're scum shouldn't be significant to him is a good one though - I'm waiting with interest to see his response.

 

6. I still don't understand your initial logic here (your interactions were 'likely v/v violence', but you're 'spewed' clear if he is Scum), and I can't confirm that you rarely engage/interact with your wolfpack / don't have a knack for it. I feel like you gave me fluff in answer for this question and then pointed your finger at Clov. The logic gap is/was a weak-to-null point for me, but not actually answering the question pings a little stronger.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I dont think i would read me as a wolf if i knew me so i dont see what u see tress.

Current reads are

Yates town
Clov town
Cass town
Tress town
Bfg town

Jmm scum.

Expect me to itterate heavily in the background. Sometimes ppl find it fishy that i nudge and swap targets but i like to give reads breathing room. It also creates content. If something is important ill usually elaborate to persuade people

 

What makes you think BFG is town?  Jmm scum?  Neither of those seem like they should be above null to me.

 

 

Thane is also town in the derp clear sort of way.

 

He says the wolf instead of a wolf. Its a tentative meta read premised on him being selective about his word choice if he ever rands mafia for me.

 

....what?

 

 

 

In a word, Jmm didn't sound curious, and the erronious caveat doesn't help matters - saying '2 or 1 probably' implies a disingenuous taxing consideration of the question beforehand. He knows it's 2, that's why he put it first, and he added probably for posturing's sake.

 

It was probably bfg's casual response that compelled me to put her down as town.

 

 

As above, pushing this seems like a bit of an opportunistic reach to me since I didn't read it that way. Also, pinging him for the fact he 'didn't sound curious' doesn't seem to match up with the idea that he's generally without emotion, which I think you mentioned elsewhere, based on observations you formed on him in a game where he was Town.

 

 

 

Yeah, but like of course that isn't enough. Maybe he's heteroclectic, or perhaps he was buying town cred. but as a town. One awkward post doesn't make someone a wolf, so I need to know a lot more from him.

 

Eh, I say again - i read cass as town because it wasn't self-conscious and she said she was excited in a genuine way.

 

I still don't see how that alone would convince you I was Town, and I don't like the 'Eh' being used like you're brushing the suspicion of a TMI slip off.

What do you mean by 'heteroclectic'? (It's not necessarily relevant, but Google hasn't helped). 

 

 

I think jmm, bfg, or clov.

I could seperate my reads into -

Town: Cass, Yates, Tress, Thane
Scum: Bfg, jmm, clov

Yates is kind of town-telling, noticing the things he does, but it's premature. I'm scared of Thane, and I'll kick myself if I'm wrong.

I'm waiting for my scum list to town tell, then I'll start over by adjusting my expectations and rereading.

 

Why the caveat on Yate's 'town-telling' being 'premature' and no caveats on the rest of us you have as Town even though you're judging us at the same time? Particularly interesting in light of the fact you're now voting Yates.

The thing about being scared of Thane doesn't make sense to me, so I see it as a filler, something else to add after your caveat and the lead-in to changing your mind on Yates.

 

 

Clov is theer by virtue of peer pressure.

What? Why would you do that, unless you're scum??

 

 

 

Re my initial question: I know 8 is a bit of an awkward number as far as mafia is concerned - you could easily have two or one mafia in the game and no one would bat an eyelash.  However, one mafia seems more unfair to the mafia than two seems to the town, so since two seemed more likely to me, I put it first.  I'll admit, it was an interesting phrasing of the question.

Is it possible there are three scum, like you intoned might be the case?

 

I've checked and rechecked, and I still get absolutely no impression that there was an intonation of there potentially being three scum. This question seemed odd and I can't understand why you would say it.

 

 

[Cass]

PART TWO

 

 

I think Thane is the type to overthink when under pressure. That's my running theory at least.

When he writes in a way that suggests he's not thinking too hard, then I infer he doesn't feel pressured and the content is more honest. if he's thinking of the wolfpack as a single unit then i can also infer his enthusiasm for the hunt is genuine.

 

Lol, misunderstood what you said, I agree with the general meta on Thane. I disagree with 'the wolf' though, it reads as a continuation of 'teh mafia' started by Tress and thus a deliberate use of words and not an unconscious use.

I also read 'the wolf' as a continuation of 'teh mafia'

 

 

ah i see. i'm still leaning town on him but i'm a little more scared now. i'll be watching him carefully.

I (still) don't understand the logic behind the idea of you being 'scared' of Thane. I'm wondering what the relevance could be if you are scum. Can you explain why you're 'scared'? 

 

 

 

 

 

So, SIli.... how is JMM your scum suspect? you doubt he genuinly asks a question and throws a decoy question to get towncred?
 
@jmm: how many games have you played?

I'll need to account for his lack of games but my thinking was his posts were too 'excited', and didn't say much. He only asks one question, how many mafia there are in an 8 person team with his second post. -felt like he might have done it just for town cred the way it was phrased.

 

Then why did you initially have him as town, for the same posts you're now reading him as mafia for?

 

 

 

i glanced over them because i was caught up with clov.

 

 

also, reading jmm as mafia for more than one post now. did he say anything about being inactive in the signups thread?

I thought the point of this question from BFG (and later the follow-up 'why bother saying he was town?') was good. I don't know how you could have answered either of these in a way that would make me think your actions there aren't odd.

Which posts exactly are you reading him as scum for now, and why (other than his apathetic tone)? 

 

 

 

Your reads are fine except there's no content there. The apathy is disconcerting.

 

Experienced mafia-ers: 

With 8 are we looking at 2 or 1 mafia probably? 

 If 3 or more mafia is absurd I'm wondering why add the caveat? It feels like you were entertaining the possibility.

 

Repeating this point of attack doesn't gel with the way I read jmm's sentence, so I find it odd. (FWIW, I don't see the 'probably' as a caveat, I see the point of the sentence being 'are we most likely looking at 1 or 2 mafia' with the 'probably' meaning 'most likely'). I do find the reversal of '1 or 2' odd, and I'm watching jmm/will have more to come on him later, but I don't see that being a big thing if he thought 2 was the most likely, and I don't get what you're pushing here about entertaining the possibility of 3 as an option, at all.

 

 

 

yates and jmm. 

This pinged at the time because you didn't elaborate. In both the games I've played with you Sili, I think it's posts like this from you that rub me the wrong way - regardless of how you're actually aligned. I get baffled at your sudden changes or random statements, and it goes against you in my perception of your general vibe. This isn't relevant to this current game, because you 'explain' your Yates thing later, but it's something that bugs me nonetheless and I want to point it out in case you don't realise/are not doing it deliberately for a reason I can't deduce.

 

 

 

 

 

Town:

 

me - double-checked my pm. it's confirmed.

 

Clov - demonstrates consistent wherewithal and attention to detail. He's proactive, and shows a healthy level of paranoia for someone of his personality type (far as I can figure).

 

Cass - emulates strong town tinfoily behavior to a tee.

 

Bfg - consistent skepticism, above board enthusiasm, depth of insight. if she continues in a believable way i'll continue to think she's town until my poe get's the better of me.

 

Thane - i reread his posts and definitely get a town vibe, but it's hard to put a finger on why. i guess maybe he's not pushing the angles that would be +ev for scum, his tone is impulsive, and he's a little scatter-brained.

 

Tress - I remember a little of her meta and recall in a cursory way her tone and the types of points she brought up last game. My gut isn't finding any inconsistency to latch onto so I'm putting her here.

 

 

Poe

 

sili - 100% (cannot express this enough)

cass - 90%

thane - 88%

clov - 88%

bfg - 80%

tress - 80%

 

Colored List

 

Sili

Cass

Thane

Clov

Bfg

Tress

Yates

Jmm

 

Ways to parse the group: Cass, Thane, and Clov I consider loose character reads. Yates - I expect impact from his town game, but he never builds a case I think. e.g. He hasn't contributed to my wagon but does nudge it along by insinuating scum/scum partners for me. I regard his content as lacking overall. Take for instance his tinfoil above? Last page I declared bfg a scum lean in one of my  opening posts and he never comments on it.

 

 

Jmm is ... so apathetic... that I can't even express how... i kind of hope i'm wrong actually, or maybe someone could correct me if i am. Jmm isn't paranoid, scatter-brained, or skeptical, nor is he enthusiastic, run&gun, or tunneling anyone. He is completely apathetic and hasn't offered the thread an iota of actual game content to demonstrate he's read it in any detail. The small points, his posture-driven opening and weird apathy towards my gameplay is just icing on the cake at this point - the problem has become more fundamental: all but two players in this roster are actively hunting for scum and he isn't one of them.

I find jmm's general 'apathy' weird and hard to get my head around as well, but why is it particularly relevant in regards to his perception of your gameplay? Why is that the 'icing on the cake?'

 

 

 

 

 

Last page I declared bfg a scum lean in one of my opening posts and he never comments on it.

I actually did - indirectly. You claim she's a scum lean but you treat her as Town. Do you not recall this discussion?

For example; reconcile this series of posts for me: <<<<<SPOILER REMOVED by CASS >>>>>>
BFG enters the game with a reads summary:

So I'll start with the easy stuff, Cass's paranoia seems newish town to me.

Clov's early involvement in the game is also townish from him, although it's been a while since I've seen him as mafia.

Presumably to BFG:

Good start. I concur.

Randomly:

Scum: Bfg, jmm, clov

 

You didn't, as far as I can tell, imply anything like that.

 

This is your page 8 content:

 

 

 

 

 

 

yates, where do i treat bfg like she's lock town?

All of page 7, basically. It sounds like you know her alignment or she knows yours. Just the way you are approaching her questions. I don't know. I'll go into more detail tomorrow. I'm spent.

 

 

I don't associate town Thane with 'guarded' play or words...

Welp. That's the one tell I was hinting at in my Thane post.

What do you make of the fact that Sili is talking to you as if he knows you are Town given your [and his] statement here???

 

<<<deleted>>>

His latest post:

 

Truth. I am very much taking that mindset, especially with Sili, since I tunneled him for a while last game 

like, he knows i'm town, otherwise the matter of tunneling me when I'm scum wouldn't be significant to him. Why not tunnel me again, right?

 

Good point, and quoted again so he doesn't miss it.

 

I find it quite curious that Sili only has one vote given that so many people are finding him scummy, but I don't know what to make of it given the size of the game, I think I'll need to sleep on it.

Curious? Couple of thoughts here:
1. Just because Sili is holding a fork, it doesn't mean he stole the cake.
2. It's WAY early in the game.
3. Curse of the small game. I think people tend to be more cautious with votes in small games.

Now I have a Sili-BFG relationship to resolve...

 

 

Initial (obviously weak) leans:

BFG: Town
Sili: Town
Thane: ?Town
Clov: ?Town
Tress: ?Mafia
Yates: ?Mafia
Cass: Mafia

I feel like this is a mostly contrarian list. It will be interesting to see some supporting information.

 

 

So tell me where I go wrong.

 

You eschew,

I'm waiting for my scum list to town tell, then I'll start over by adjusting my expectations and rereading.

 

 

 

From your quoted excerpts, coded blue. I had bfg as scum by poe. It was not a strong stance and I was looking for reasons to change my mind. I imply this by the quote you left out and my inclusion of clov as a scum lean.

 

The blue also has no real relevance to your initial position.

 

You promised you would go into detail how I treat Bfg as town. The most I think you can say is we cooperate to meet an ends, and that's pretty much all I got from reading thrice. You'll have to help me.

 

EVERYONE??? No, not everyone. I linked you to Sili and Cass to Sili.

 

And clov to sili.

 

 

 

I think you're missing the point. The point is linking players to me is a good part of your content, and so I ask, how is insinuating scum partners without case building early day 1 without a single flip conducive to hunting scum?

 

It's pure tinfoil right?

 

Like, say I flip Scum, what are you going to do - lynch bfg because we worked together for a page? From a villager's point of view (e.g. mine) it seems frivolous and maybe destructive depending on the roster's gullibility, because I could very well be in anti-spew and as a matter of fact, scum treating a player like town usually means that player is town.

 

Like jmm has been doing for me.

 

And you say I've been doing for bfg.

 

 

My head hurts looking at this back and forth and I plan to go back and re-read Yates based on your points just in case, but I liked his initial point (asking you to explain the jump from the 'good start, I concur' to 'BFG is Scum') and I don't like the part about you 'looking for reasons to change your mind'. I don't overly understand the thought process and I don't like you saying after the fact that BFG was only scum by POE when you mentioned nothing of that reasoning in the post where you initially switched your reads. For me your thought process seems to go 'BFG's stuff is good -> BFG is scum -> BFG is Town but ONLY UNTIL POE GETS THE BETTER OF ME -> BFG was only SCUM by POE and I wasn't treating her as Town (current post being examined).

 

In a nutshell, I find you hedging your read on BFG using POE both ways disconcerting, and I think it's a weak cover after the fact for changing your view of her to scum - because you didn't mention anything about it in the original 'BFG is scum' post. To me it doesn't all add up.

[Cass]

PART THREE

 

 

 

I'll let you know when I have one. I think he's going to be a hard read. Last game I thought he was scummy because he was "completely apathetic" and didn't "offer the thread an iota of actual game content to demonstrate he's read it in any detail." Plus, throughout the entire game he was never really "actively hunting for scum."

 

Jmm Iso so people can see for themselves. More voices in the wolfden would be nice.

 

As far as I can recall, he is a behind the scenes player (someone who makes up their mind without communicating it in lists), or at least he was when he was when an innocent child (didn't need to explain himself), but jmm was engaged in the game at least. He didn't elaborate all at once, in one big post about all the players in sequence, but there was good content there like spiced apples.

 

Red: harder than me?

 

I think what you've said of jmm here -particularly the stuff in bold - about how he played his last game (where he was Town) can be applied to what we're seeing in this one too (where you're now claiming he's scum). I'm not saying that I agree with what jmm has posted so far, but can you explain where you're getting the view that his play is different/that he's scum?

 

On my part I do actually think he's going to be a harder read for me than you, although potentially less confusing. 

 

 

 

Yates who do u have down as scum? Ill know if ur lying probably.

What? How? (TMI?)

 

 

 

I swear i tried to get a post running 4 different times and each time my tablet shut down.

 

Now I will respond, in order of what's most important to me.

Not relevant, but I sympathise with Tablet Suck.

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, yates is lying. I don't think anyone will believe me but... :/

 

Lying about what?  

 

I might be tunneling yates. It's hard to tell, so the least I can do is tell you what I find irksome about his poe list.

 

If my arguments are good maybe it will be persuasive... and if they aren't maybe I'm mistaken.

 

This is the post I claim he lies in,

By POE all of the scum are in you, Tress, BFG, and Thane.

Cass is Town 100% of the time, here. I don't recall seeing Clov scum but this is a pretty solid Clov Town approach to the game. Thane hasn't contributed enough and Tress has a medical excuse to not be contributing. Lack of content players are hard to judge. I'd feel good lynching in that pool and investigating there as well.

 

poe - Yates hasn't substantiated enough town reads to form a healthy poe day 1. The only reason poe is there is to imply he's done more work than he has.

poe includes 4 scum - 4 out of 7 players isn't a poe. it's a crapshoot.

Thane hasn't contributed enough - Thane isn't known for case building, but he has said a little about everyone. I think Yates misses it because he's looking for 'notable' content only which is wolfy.

Tress has a medical excuse - Yates is intensely aware of player status but not player content. To say neither thane or tress have much content to speak of is insanely reductive, and begging for poor reads.

Jmm isn't mentioned - Yates was reading jmm as null, but does not include him in a purported poe over 4 others. This means tress, thane, me, and bfg are all scum leans to him.

It's hard to judge low content players - Uses this to excuse Thane and Tress in a poe,  but does not include the lowest content poster.

Hedges on scum leans due to low content - instead of building a case on them.

Insterts clov as a new town read - but does not include jmm in the same breath.

 

Sili - Here's where I'm at IRT Yates...

 

 

 

 

 

You claim she's a scum lean but you treat her as Town. Do you not recall this discussion?

You didn't, as far as I can tell, imply anything like that.

 

Not to make this into too big of a deal but, what?? You claim you called BFG a scum suspect. I acknowledge that. I read it. It's pretty clear. Then you go on to respond to BFG throughout all of Page 7 in a tone that suggests [to me] you already know she's Town. [Granted; tone reading is a skill I'm trying to hone.] So when you claim I never "commented" on the fact that you called BFG a scum read, you are missing the fact that it is implied that I'm commenting on it when I ask BFG what she thinks about you treating her like you know she's Town. This question only really makes sense if I already know that you called her scummy and thus your tone made the question pertinent given your stated read. Follow?

You eschew,

I'm waiting for my scum list to town tell, then I'll start over by adjusting my expectations and rereading.

 

Yeah. Pretty much. I actually kind of wait for ANYONE to Town tell to a degree I recognize so I can focus my scum hunting elsewhere. I kind of pride myself on not Town tunneling and think I've done a pretty decent job of late. That's how I accomplish that feat. But what's the point of this statement [accusation?]?

From your quoted excerpts, coded blue. I had bfg as scum by poe. It was not a strong stance and I was looking for reasons to change my mind. I imply this by the quote you left out and my inclusion of clov as a scum lean.

What did I leave out? It's possible I misunderstood something or wasn't following your train of thought...
 

You promised you would go into detail how I treat Bfg as town. The most I think you can say is we cooperate to meet an ends, and that's pretty much all I got from reading thrice. You'll have to help me.

Best laid plans of mice and men. I'm just going to call it "tone" rather then spend the 1000 words it would take to explain why that appears to be the case.
 

The point is linking players to me is a good part of your content, and so I ask, how is insinuating scum partners without case building early day 1 without a single flip conducive to hunting scum?

I was being cheeky with you and Cass. Really, I was trying to coax a reaction out of you two, as you already suspected. Cass fell for it and I think her reaction was on point. So she got the first Equestria Town Carrot. Your response is automagically void because you knew what I was doing and admitted to it.

Your tone with BFG, given your stated opinion of her alignment, struck me ass odd and is a completely separate event. It's just coincidence, really, that it happened to be you. Again. Or, maybe it's not coincidence so much as simple math.

It's pure tinfoil right?

See? You did it again. Now you are treating ME like you know I'm Town. It can't be "tinfoil" unless you know I'm Town.
 

Like, say I flip Scum, what are you going to do - lynch bfg because we worked together for a page? From a villager's point of view (e.g. mine) it seems frivolous and maybe destructive depending on the roster's gullibility, because I could very well be in anti-spew and as a matter of fact, scum treating a player like town usually means that player is town.
 
Like jmm has been doing for me.
 
And you say I've been doing for bfg.

I agree with the bold. If you were to flip scum, I would think that would clear me, BFG, and Cass [to a lesser degree]. At least it would weigh favorably in my evaluation of BFG and Cass's alignments.

 

 

 

I don't really get this impression at all from their interactions.  There is something that stood out to me, but I'm hoping you can give an example or explain what you mean before I show it.

As I told Sili, it's mostly tone. Let me see if I can pull up a quote or two that really emphasizes what I mean...

Okay, here's I think the exchange that felt too familiar to me:

Lol, misunderstood what you said, I agree with the general meta on Thane. I disagree with 'the wolf' though, it reads as a continuation of 'teh mafia' started by Tress and thus a deliberate use of words and not an unconscious use.

ah i see. i'm still leaning town on him but i'm a little more scared now. i'll be watching him carefully.

Sure. MAYBE Sili is just "working together," as he says. But something about that doesn't feel natural if Sili is assuming BFG is scum.

But the other thing that bothers me is the same thing I just busted Sili for:

Sili, given 2 mafia who are you most likely to tinfoil on at the moment?

Here, BFG is assuming Sili is Town. That's why I said earlier that it felt like at least one of them knew the other's alignment. And it's not like BFG really went after Sili. That whole page reads like a limp distancing argument. And that's in my minus column for BFG. This isn't really something I was prepared to talk about but it seems as though the cat's out of the bag so let's make it public and discuss...

 

 

He made it seem like he was comfortable enough leaving his argument about the link between BFG/you as tone.  I pressed for further information, and he obliged.  That's by no means locks him in as town, but him being willing to work with me gives him a little bit of credit.  He's displaying a similar thought process to me ("tinfoil" vs "suspicion")*  

 

And his argument about linking you makes sense.  You named BFG as a scum read...immediately after you agreed with her reads.  You seem to have taken her suspicion of Thane to heart ("I'm more scared of him now").  I don't expect players to immediately write off anything their suspects say, but if you're that in sync with her, why should she be a scum read?  Is everything she's saying a TMI-based read that she's gifting us?

 

 

Yates asserts tone is somehow this nebulous undefined quality, then a couple posts later dispenses with the how's and why's of it's inner workings when pressed by someone else. It's queer. Not to mention the two topics are actually over two seperate claims, so he isn't continuing the same argument. Yates starts by declaring I treat Bfg like she's town, and later asserts I simply let go of a scum lean. The latter is a far less notable offense, but it can be substantiated to a degree.

 

I interpret the case as such: why wasn't I building a case on bfg if I had her as scum, and my answer is simple: she was never a scum lean. She asked me for my poe and since I was discerning her alignment at the time I put her in my lower bracket. Assume it was a null-scum read for absence of information and my posts make perfect sense because it's exactly what happened. I even express a tentative quality about those leans in particular.

 

And I mean, since when does cooperation and agreement with certain reads lead to being fatilly connected? wtf. I liked her content, the arguments presented, and I agreed with them. And I especially did after I went back and checked to see what she meant.

 

Most of this thing hurts my head but I actually quite like your explanation of your changing views on BFG here. Why didn't you just say it like that earlier? It makes more sense than previously, although I find the 'tentative quality about those leans in particular' thing odd because, as above - i) you didn't say it was tentative when you first changed/said she was included with your most likely scum and ii) as far as I can tell, the 'tentative' you're referencing here is the whole I have her as 'x' because of/with caveat of POE on both sides, which detracts somewhat from the rest of the understandable explanation.

 

 

 

wait, no no... so okay, assume i'm town and now go. i want it to be a critical sort of answer that i can rely on.

 

AND YOU HAVENT TOLD ME IM WRONG YET. (about you being scum). weird.

 

How would Yates telling you you're wrong about you saying he is scum be at all indicative of him being Town? In my books telling someone that they're wrong for thinking you're scum/defending yourself by saying that you're not scum is only ever going to be a null response. Because of that, I find you pressing for such a response/claiming it's 'weird' that someone hasn't done so is weird in itself.

 

 

 

poe - Yates hasn't substantiated enough town reads to form a healthy poe day 1. The only reason poe is there is to imply he's done more work than he has.

poe includes 4 scum - 4 out of 7 players isn't a poe. it's a crapshoot.

Thane hasn't contributed enough - Thane isn't known for case building, but he has said a little about everyone. I think Yates misses it because he's looking for 'notable' content only which is wolfy.

Tress has a medical excuse - Yates is intensely aware of player status but not player content. To say neither thane or tress have much content to speak of is insanely reductive, and begging for poor reads.

Jmm isn't mentioned - Yates was reading jmm as null, but does not include him in a purported poe over 4 others. This means tress, thane, me, and bfg are all scum leans to him.

It's hard to judge low content players - Uses this to excuse Thane and Tress in a poe,  but does not include the lowest content poster.

Hedges on scum leans due to low content - instead of building a case on them.

Insterts clov as a new town read - but does not include jmm in the same breath.

 

forgot my conclusion. tl;dr to me at least, yates poe list seems to be disingenuous, inconsistent with past content in terms of read substantiation and case building, mostly fluff, and indicative of someone who hasn't taken a critical eye to the thread but still wants to appear like they have.

 

i call this scummy.

 

points of interest:

 

-Yates declares "all the scum are here" so it is an immutable list. But Yates doesn't include jmm in his analysis despite the slot being a point of contention.

-Yates has at least 2 scum leans he hasn't built a case on.

 

I have to re-read Yates properly to be sure of the points I'm making/try and fully understand your claims here, but for now, I find 'mostly fluff' suspicious and 'an immutable list' a twist of words because I wasn't reading him that way and I don't recall him saying anything of the sort.

 

 

dunno if i'm saying anything right but that's where i'm at. it's a been a challenge articulating my instincts.

 

and of course the problem with gut reads is they can be premature or misguided.

There's so much that still confuses me about you, and more importantly, too many inconsistencies for me to let you off the hook because of it, but either way, your 'articulating your instincts' has made it easier for me to try and figure out where I think you're coming from, so thanks.

 

 

In a nutshell though, I still think you're playing scum   

 

 

[Sili Quirrels]

Huh