Most powerful nations on the Randland

[Ismail Elezi]

Something that always intrigued me. Which are the most powerful nations on the world (assuming that Rand doesn't fight)?

Aiel - very likely they could have defeated the entire nations of the main continent, at the same time. Only 4 Aiel tribes (1/3 of all Aiel forces), pretty much did that and reached Tar Valon. The regenade Shaido tribe was enough to defeat nations.

Saenchan - at-least as strong as Aiel, and likely even stronger. Have more powerful channelers and from Aviendha vision we saw that in an eventual war between Aiel and Saenchan, Aiel not that will only lose, but in fact will get completely destroyed. And in that war, the other nations were helping Aiels. So, it is possible that the Saenchan Empire could defeat both Aiel and other nations of the main continent at the same time.

Sharan - this is more difficult, because we saw them only a bit, but they look very strong. And have probably the most powerful channelers. They aren't a war society, but from the A Memory of Light we saw that they can do very well.

From the other countries, Andor seems to be the biggest and most powerful one, but I think that each of these three would easily defeat it.

Thoughts?

[Suttree]

Are we talking powerful solely from a military perspective?

[Ismail Elezi]

Are we talking powerful solely from a military perspective?

Yes. What would have happened in an eventual war between them?

[mb]

the annual "cage matches" seem similar to this.

 

Aviendha's glass column visions I take to be speculation about the future.

 

The country/nation most likely to win a war I guess would fit each of these::

-one that could learn from anyone's mistakes

-one that could adapt plans when things go differently than hoped

-one that has allies

 

edit::

having knowledge in these could help the country/nation to win a war::

-themselves; strengths, weaknesses.

-their enemy/enemies; strengths, weaknesses, tendencies.

-the battlefield; location of various geographical features (bodies of water, cliffs, caves, tunnels, hills/mountains, etc).

[Elsalvador]

I don't see how it could be anything other than the Seanchan. RJ did a really good job of painting them as invincible without Rand (or, to a degree, Egwene I guess) to stop them.

[Sabio]

Before the war I would say the Seanchan, they used tactics that no nation in Randland had seen before such as the flying beasts .  Seanchan's true power was being able to pick off each nation one at a time.  My problem that during that last battle it seemed as if they were made too invincible and I felt their numbers were always overly inflated.  After the war I would say Shara is the weakest after all the losses they took.  Not to mention being isolated, like the Shaido, they will start to fall behind in technology and tactics.   In one of Rand's worlds I believe there was mention of aiel with the new riles on their way to peacekeeping missions in Shara, so I think they are going to be an occupied area for awhile.  After the war I would say it would be a draw since the Aiel now have the support of every nation if they are attacked. 

[Ismail Elezi]

Before the war I would say the Seanchan, they used tactics that no nation in Randland had seen before such as the flying beasts .  Seanchan's true power was being able to pick off each nation one at a time.  My problem that during that last battle it seemed as if they were made too invincible and I felt their numbers were always overly inflated.  After the war I would say Shara is the weakest after all the losses they took.  Not to mention being isolated, like the Shaido, they will start to fall behind in technology and tactics.   In one of Rand's worlds I believe it was there was mention of aiel with the new riles on their way to peacekeeping missions in Shara, so I think they are going to be an occupied area for awhile.  After the war I would say it would be a draw since the Aiel now have the support of every nation if they are attacked. 

That's not neccesary a good thing. From Aviendha vision, Aiel were on a stalemate with Saenchan until Andor entered the war against Saenchan, and then Saenchan became even more powerful. Considering that Saenchan actually gain new channelers during the war, Aiel might be better fighting them only by themselves.

 

I agree about the numbers being inflated and not very consistent. You get the impression that only the Saenchan have around 500000 soldiers (Ituralde defeated 100000 of them, and it looked that they aren't weakened at all), and considering that Shaido had around 100000 people (and 500 channelers) you would expect that all Aiel together would have hundreds of thousands of warriors and 2000+ channelers. However on the last battle, you get the impression that the entire army of light isn't very big (probably two hundred thousands or so if you are generous). It was mentioned that they have been outnumbered 4:1, and then Sanderson mentions only tens of thousands of Trollocs.

 

Like on Star Wars, I found the numbers of the armies to be very inconsistent.

[Suttree]

The country that is most interesting to me is Andor. Well likely falling short of some of the other powers mentioned we do know they have the largest military force of the central Randland nations. Add in to that the Kin along with new ties to the Borderlands through Perrin and they certainly have a bright future on this front.

[Sabio]

No idea why my quote never seems to work.  But the Aiel's doom was because they were left out of the dragons peace, it not confirmed but now that they are part of the dragon's peace there is a chance things will change.  The aiel were initially going to attack the Seanchan right after, but now they mentioned they will try to bargain to get the wise one's back.  The problem with the Aiel channelers is since they were not suppose to fight we have no idea how skilled many were with weaves meant for war.  During Dumani wells it seems like the Shaido were suppose to pick up on what the Aes Sedai were doing and copy it.  We know they could at least make fireballs fall from the sky.  I would say out of Seanchan, Shara, and the Aiel, combat wise the Aiel were probably the weakest in terms of battle skill.

 

I agree Revan, yes they gained extra soliders from the conquered lands, but it seems without the use of gateways they shipped over a lot of troops, animals, and equipment.  In the BWB is says the Aiel claimed at no time did the four clans have as many as 100,000 spears west off the Dragonwall.  The aiel claim their forces were 70,000- 80,000 and they were facing twice as many Alliance army.  Assuming each nation didn't send all they could, after all the borderlands especially would hold some back.  So 4 clans at most brought 100,000 total over and they would of left  a little back to defend their holds, but probably not much since we know all the Aiel were forbidden to attack the clans that went over until it was done.  So thats about 25000 per clan, and I am guessing each clan is roughly close in numbers.  So at 25000 for 11 clans is 275000 spears with an unknown number held back for defense of the holds.  Fires of heaven might give better numbers.  Still seems like army numbers got inflated as the series went on.  Especially the Shaido considering all the disasters they had and at the end there (if I remember right) was still a sizeable force heading towards the Seanchan and Perrin after that battle. 

[mb]

Dumani wells?  I think it was "Dumai's Wells".

[Giantevilhead]

The Seanchan are probably the most powerful since they employ a much greater range of strategies. They use political manipulation to gain power and improve their position. They utilize espionage and assassinations. They're also very innovative. They were able to quickly produce forkroot and use it to capture more channelers.

 

I think the Aiel probably have a stronger military. The books have consistently portrayed invidivual Aiel warriors to be far better fighters compared to soldiers/warriors from other lands. Whereas even though Seanchan warriors are disciplined, they weren't shown to be more skilled than warriors from other lands. However, the Aiel's code of honor and inability to adapt is a huge hindrance. They mostly fight fair and don't use much trickery or underhanded tactics.

[mb]

Aiel unable to adapt?  The Aiel seem adaptable in at least 1 area: their movement.  They have been able to remain quick across any terrain and in any weather condition.

code of honor a hindrance?  I am not so sure.  Most characters in this series seem to have some kind of code of honor; and at least the Seanchan also have an explicit one.  And most characters seem to "fight fair"; and also seem to use as little trickery (and as little underhanded tactics) as the Aiel.

[Giantevilhead]

Every nation has certain cultural practices that can hurt their ability to wage war. Da'covale committing suicide when their master die is a detrimental practice for the Seanchan. Gai'shain refusing to do violence is detrimental to the Aiel.

 

However, the Aiel seem to have more practices that would hurt their ability to wage war. They don't use animals for war, only to carry their supplies. They use a pretty limited selection of weapons. They don't use assassins. They don't take over the people they conquer.

[mb]

assassins; the character that hires them and the intended victim/victims have generally came from the same country.  Also, hirer and victim/victims have generally been political candidates of the country; and they generally knew each other before the assassination attempt.  And all assassination attempts have been in a city; never in a field.

Assassination attempts on the enemy I imagine would take up much time to prepare.  And they I guess would not make much difference in a war; unless each victim is a leader in the enemy army.

 

weapons; I do not recall any character using more than 3 weapon types.  The army with the most number of weapon types I think was Band of the Red Hand; other armies I think had roughly equal amount of weapon types.

Skill with weapon/weapons to me would be more important than number of weapon types.

 

animals; some Aiel also use them for transportation.  most countries in this series seem to use animals for just transportation and supplies; and they seemed to not suffer much.

animals fighting; there could be some chance that some enemy could learn how to fight them.  And training the animals to fight differently could take time; and there could be some chance of those techniques being also learned.

[Giantevilhead]

The Seanchan used Bloodknives to try to cause chaos in the White Tower and assassinate Egwene so they've used assassins to kill someone from a different nation. Gawyn tried to assassinate Demandred with the Bloodknife ter'angreal so the Seanchan can obviously do it in the field as well. Neither assassination attempts required a huge amount of planning. Also, just because two countries are in a war, it doesn't mean they'll only be fighting in the field. It still takes time for people to travel to different battlefields. They still have to manage all their infrastructure and supply lines to make sure that the troops are fed and have the equipment they need. Troops have to rest between battles. There are going to be situations when generals are doing something other than leading troops or fighting in the battlefield.

 

It's not an issue of the same soldiers being proficient with different weapons, it's a matter of different weapons being better for different situations. Every weapon has its advantages and disadvantages. If you only use a few types of weapon then it's easier for your opponent to exploit their disadvantages.

 

Aiel can learn to train animals but that's going to take time. It'll also take them time to acquire horses, rakens, grolms, etc. Not to mention how they'll have to learn how to breed and care for them. The Seanchan already know how to do all that and have people who specialize in training animals.

[dexterryu]

It really depends on how it's looked at. From a pure military standpoint it would be close between the Aeil and Seanchan. I'd give the Seanchan a slight advantage due to their ability to scout using Raken.

 

As far as the Power goes... I think should it be deemed "OK" to be used as a weapon that the any group of either Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, etc... would have the advantage due to their ability to link. Outside of a few instances given in the books brute strength with the power almost always won, and linking gives exactly that. Especially if Men and Women worked together as they started doing towards the end of the series.

[mb]

Gawyn vs Demandred; from what I skimmed, it seems to be a duel and not an assassination attempt.

Blood Knifes; as far as I recall, their instructions were general and not specific.

An assassination attempt to me would include specific instructions on who to kill; victim's name or victim's rank/title or a description of the victim.

[Sabio]

Hiding in the shadows to kill Aes Sedai seems a lot like assassinations to me.  They order were general but were simply to kill as many Aes Sedai as they could, and with Egwene being the newly elected  leader she would be top of their hit list.  For animals fighting, you basically just have calvary in Rand land, only the Saenchan use animals in war beside just being for calvary. Almost every animal they have has a purpose for fighting except their flying mounts.

 

Yeah Gawyn vs Dem was a more of a duel, Gawyn tried to get the advantage using the rings but I don't think he was trying to simply walk up behind Dem and shank him like an assassin would.  I think he truly thought with those rings he would be the better man in the fight. 

[Giantevilhead]

Gawyn planned to assassinate Demandred. He wanted to pull Demandred off of his horse and stab him in the face. Demandred sensed Gawyn and he was only able to kill Demandred's horse. It probably would have worked if it had been planned out better. If Gawyn had coordinated it with some of the troops and struck during an attack by other soldiers or if he had given two of the Bloodknife rings to the two best scouts/soldiers he could find and all attacked at the same time, the chances of success would have been way higher. But Gawyn was an idiot and ruined everything.

[mb]

"planned to kill" seems more accurate than "planned to assassinate".

assassinate generally implies that someone else hires/orders the assassin to kill.

[Giantevilhead]

Here's the definition of the word "assassin" from dictionary.com

 

noun

1. a murderer, especially one who kills a politically prominent person for fanatical or monetary reasons.

 

and the definition for the word "assassinate"

 

verb (used with object), assassinated, assassinating.

1. to kill suddenly or secretively, especially a politically prominent person; murder premeditatedly and treacherously.

 

Also, Demandred specifically accuses Gawyn of being an assassin.

[mbuehner]

"planned to kill" seems more accurate than "planned to assassinate".

assassinate generally implies that someone else hires/orders the assassin to kill.

Was Lee Harvey Oswald or Sirhan Sirhan not an assassin then?

 

 

I think there is a lot of backward looking in this thread as to what these nations could accomplish in the past. But things have radically changed by the end of the war. The Aiel had taken massive losses, the Seanchan, probably not so much (their contribution to the last battle was pretty underwhelming imo). They conquered several nations and were very effective at recruiting reasonably effective units from them, while the Aiel have done nothing but bleed and have no such way to replace their losses. The Aiel might reconquer, say Tarabon, but they wouldnt become Aiel or contribute much to their military. In fact the Aiel would have to leave forces to secure vital locations. Thats a huge difference.

 

And technology has changed taking away some of the Aiel advantages. Now everybody can move by gateway, so their speed is negated. I dont see the Aiel taking to gunpowder very quickly, so muskets and cannons will trump their skill with bows and spears.

 

Essentially the glass columns tell the story. The problem is, there really isnt much the Aiel could change even in theory that would correct these imbalances even if they wanted to, and even knowing about that prophecy.  

[mb]

to Giantevilhead::

not sure if Gawyn's beliefs were involved in his decision to kill Demandred; but money definitely was not involved.

and there seems to be no treachery in the attempt since Gawyn was not a friend/follower/ally/etc of Demandred; and Demandred never seemed to do any past favors for Gawyn.

 

to mbuehner::

the glass column visions I have took to be speculation about the future, not prophecy; like I told earlier.  prophecy; the event/events cannot be avoided.  From what I skimmed, a certain clan chief was killed; the visions told that he would live.  The events seemed changed when Aviendha demanded that the Aiel be included in Rand's contract.

technology; in other sources, technological advances seemed to help more with peace than with war; I imagine the same would apply to this series.  The Aiel have also learned Gateways; so their speed to me seems to not be negated.

 

to no particular person::

to me knowledge + allies would be more important in winning a war than anything else.  Kind of told that in my first post of this thread.

keeping conquered nations; gaining acceptance/respect from those people would be the best chance at that.  I would guess that nations that have morals would gain acceptance/respect quicker than anyone else.

[mbuehner]

to Giantevilhead::

not sure if Gawyn's beliefs were involved in his decision to kill Demandred; but money definitely was not involved.

and there seems to be no treachery in the attempt since Gawyn was not a friend/follower/ally/etc of Demandred; and Demandred never seemed to do any past favors for Gawyn.

 

to mbuehner::

the glass column visions I have took to be speculation about the future, not prophecy; like I told earlier.  prophecy; the event/events cannot be avoided.  From what I skimmed, a certain clan chief was killed; the visions told that he would live.  The events seemed changed when Aviendha demanded that the Aiel be included in Rand's contract.

technology; in other sources, technological advances seemed to help more with peace than with war; I imagine the same would apply to this series.  The Aiel have also learned Gateways; so their speed to me seems to not be negated.

 

to no particular person::

to me knowledge + allies would be more important in winning a war than anything else.  Kind of told that in my first post of this thread.

keeping conquered nations; gaining acceptance/respect from those people would be the best chance at that.  I would guess that nations that have morals would gain acceptance/respect quicker than anyone else.

 

Its not the specifics of the pillars that im pointing to- its the basic Aiel morays that they would likely be loath to abandon, the columns just displayed that.

 

As far as their speed- its not the speed thats negated, its the relative advantage they enjoyed over others. Essentially everyone moves at the same speed now, gateway speed. Which means the Aiel dont move faster than everyone else anymore.

[Sabio]

With the Aiel now part of the treaty, the future will be different. Doesn't mean better or worse, but what Avi saw was what would happen if the Aiel allowed themselves to be separate and  do their own thing.  Even  Rhurac had said they were simply going to attack the Seanchan after the war was over.  Now they can't simply do that.