[Standard] 11/10 Top Tier Vanilla+ Game Thread

[Pralaya]

I am pretty content to lynch Pralaya -- I'm sorry, but if you can only catch up at 20 pages per day, you're probably never going to be caught up, and if you're never here to post then we're never ever going to be able to clear you, and I'd just as soon pick the scab now.  (And yes, I know that sounds mildly hypocritical since I haven't posted much, and no I don't care.)

 

Two things.

 

The game slows down as the days progresses. I pick up my posting D2-D3 onwards. Always.

 

And, my posts are always usually content oriented. Very rarely off-topic. So, there would be no reason for you to say "Oh, we cannot clear you at all !"

[Kivam]

 

Cass, you say you're caught up, but haven't reacted at all to my post responding to your questions that you said you really wanted answered.  That seems ... inconsistent with your other play in this thread.  What's up?

 

 

Kiv I missed this til now. I don't think I've even seen the post you're referring to. Hold up.

 

But if you're still here. What's your current take on me and DPR based on our most recent interactions?

 

 

heh.  Welcome to my life.

 

Re Wes - I'm with Wombat and Barm, both players who have played with Wes a lot.  (They call his play scummy; I call it townsided, because it's genuinely his play when town and I've seen it absolutely crush, though when he's scum that makes an excellent cover).  I completely understand why a player without history on Wes would read it as dodgy, but he's too good a player and too useful an asset to throw out on a Day 1 gut-call.  And for all the reads, suspicions, and evidence, it's vitally important to remember that is all Day 1 is - without confirmed alignments on multiple players, it's really hard to form judgments on anyone with any certainty.  I listed 5 players as highest on my suspicion list, because of their interactions and play, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if none of them are scum, because these are Day 1 suspicions. 

 

That's why information lynching (sorry, Yates, I've got to) is so important on Day 1.  Some people treat Day 1 as a throw away because it's all guesswork, which is a disaster; all that gets you is a Day 2 with little information more than you started Day 1 with.  Thankfully, that hasn't been the play this game - although Stelio was nodding towards it a bit and Hallia's total absence is scary but might be attributable to "it's just Day 1" error.  Others treat Day 1 the same as an endgame scumhunt, tunneling on or bulldogging their favorite "reads" and hunches as though they were supported by evidence rather than supposition.  That's just as much a disaster, because the odds of those reads being right is vanishingly small, and it leaves the town with less information than there should have been.  The town's biggest advantage is numbers, which means we can afford and profit from an early mislynch if it leads to a better chance for the town to win long term.

 

Getting back to Wes - as I said, he's a null read to me.  Sentimentally, I don't want him dead D1 in my first game in 2 years.  And logically, I don't want him dead D1 because if he's actually town, he can be a huge help in a town win.  So do I trust him?  You know the answer to that.  But will I lynch him today?  Absolutely not.

 

[Nynaeve]

I think this is hilarious, Des. Cause you're basically underestimating her and saying there's no way she could fake this as scum considering it's her first game. But the word on the street is that she's a prodigy that's gonna be upstaging us all soon, according to Kivam.... so I think I'm gonna size her up the same way I size up everyone else. ktanks.

[Cass]

 

 

 

 

 

I really don't see what's the big deal about DPR proposing the option that a newbie might be being coached. It's a valid possibility. And it's not an insult at all. It's a viable strategy.

I would agree with you if he was accusing her of being coached. He didn't accuse her of simply being coached. He said her scum team was writing her posts for her. He literally called her a "puppet" at one point. I'm keenly aware of this because he accused ME of authoring her posts.

 

 

Same diff. Again, Dawn got accused of the same when she was on my scum team. They said she didn't sound like herself. Using big words and such. And some were wondering if someone was feeding her posts. It's not a slight, imo. It's thinking outside the box. I could see how it would annoy her, if it weren't true. But beyond that *Shrugs*

 

I'm not saying I agree with DPR. While I AM getting a more experienced feel from her posts, it's possible she just has a very good mentor. 

 

I don't know, this just seems like an overreaction to me.

 

 

Flattered, but Nyn - have you even entertained the idea that I am writing all my own posts? <- That's not snide, it's genuine. If you think at everything I've written from this angle, would it change your read of me/help convince you that I'm Town?

 

Just sayin.

 

I'm starting to hate the fact that people know I am a noob.

 

 

 

 

Flattered, but Nyn - have you even entertained the idea that I am writing all my own posts? <- That's not snide, it's genuine. If you think at everything I've written from this angle, would it change your read of me/help convince you that I'm Town?

 

Just sayin.

 

I'm starting to hate the fact that people know I am a noob.

 

 

You're missing my point. I wasn't actually talking about you. I was saying that I think people are overreacting to a valid option and calling it rude as if DPR kicked a puppy or something. It's stupid.

 

So this has nothing to do with my read on you. You're still neatly in the null pile.

 

 

 

I feel misunderstood/misrepresented in your response, which must mean I didn't come across as clearly as I thought. Let me try again

 

I completely agree with you on the people overreacting thing.

I agree that it's a valid option.

I know I can't convince you that's not what's happening based solely on a "I'm writing everything myself."

 

And none of that is relevant to what I was trying to ask.

 

 

What I want to know is WHY you're reading me as null, not Town. And whether the possibility-of-a-mentor-thing has something to do with that view.

 

Cos, again, I guess I want to know If you take a sec to think at everything I've written from the angle that I have written it, would it change your read of me/help convince you that I'm Town.

 

I ask because that seemed to work for Wombat.

 

Wombat - help me/her out?

[Cass]

 

 

 

 

 

My preferences for this vote are now, in order:

 

DPR

Sili

 

 

I don't want to change my vote if people are not going to back me on DPR, because it just means we lose our chance at Sili. Help. And seriously, it's 3.18am, I need to go to bed. I don't understand your timezones - how many hours til night begins??

 

I see. You're a first game mafia prodigy, but you don't get the whole time-zone thing. 

 

You want to contribute to the town? Lay a vote down so that you've documented your stance.

 

 

Yes. I don't get the time-zone thingy. As far as I knew my ability to tell time on the other side of the world has no bearing on my powers of logic and deduction :P.

And notice how you didn't help me out, even though I'm definitely a noob?

 

I have laid a vote down - Sili.

 

I'm asking Town if they'd support me in a vote against you.

 

I'm not stupid, your reputation counts for something. It would make you hard to kill first round.

 

I'd hate to see Sili slip out of a vote if he's scum  because the town vote was divided over you - a 'legend' and me - a 'noob'.

 

Townies (NOT DPR) I need a weigh in on this before I go to bed. And an answer to how long I have before night happens, because I'm wondering if it's worth me staying up ALL NIGHT to re-read everything everyone has on Sili.

 

But, you know what? I think I've handled myself well enough, and that there're enough people who believe I'm smart enough to have come to this conclusion all by myself. 

 

[v]DPR[/v]

 

 

 

Correction. (Thanks for finding that mistake Des - OMG).

 

[v]##DPR[/v]

 

With Sili as my (potentially wonky) current second preference

 

 

 

 

I intend now to find Kiv's missing post, reply briefly and get to bed some time before sleeping. If noone jumps on the DPR wagon with me, I have a lot of Sili searching ahead of me tomorrow. If I even manage to wake. 

 

 

Yeah. You are wonky.

 

No matter how much you may want it, I'm not counting your vote twice.

 

 

Stop it!

 

I'm trying to find Kiv's post. The longer that takes, the more tired I'll be, the less effective I'll be at searching for ways to clear/destroy you tomorrow...  

[Kivam]

 

Suggest you all do the same, if only to save the egg on your faces when - if she's as good as I think she is, and can be - she's routinely kicking all of your asses in future games.

 

Gee. Thanks.

 

 

[Stelio Kontos]

 

I am pretty content to lynch Pralaya -- I'm sorry, but if you can only catch up at 20 pages per day, you're probably never going to be caught up, and if you're never here to post then we're never ever going to be able to clear you, and I'd just as soon pick the scab now.  (And yes, I know that sounds mildly hypocritical since I haven't posted much, and no I don't care.)

 

Two things.

 

The game slows down as the days progresses. I pick up my posting D2-D3 onwards. Always.

 

And, my posts are always usually content oriented. Very rarely off-topic. So, there would be no reason for you to say "Oh, we cannot clear you at all !"

 

 

I'm all for content oriented and rarely off topic, and I'm all for not spamming, but, there's a difference between that and not posting at all for a day-plus. 

 

Regardless, you have ample opportunity the next few hours to do enough to no get lynched since it's a mix of "the guy you subbed in for was kinda wolfy" and "not posting" -- it seems like posting some decent thoughts should cross off both those objections. 

 

You're going to be held to the "I post more on d2" standard by the way.

 

[hazelkrs1]

 

 

Don't see how you could have Cass as null. You really think she could fake her rambling SoC posts as scum her first time?

1. As far as I know there's also a SK in the mix

 

2. It's a possible.

1. Good point. I haven't even started to look for potential SK's

 

2. /shrug

[Cass]

 

 

 

I really don't see what's the big deal about DPR proposing the option that a newbie might be being coached. It's a valid possibility. And it's not an insult at all. It's a viable strategy.

I would agree with you if he was accusing her of being coached. He didn't accuse her of simply being coached. He said her scum team was writing her posts for her. He literally called her a "puppet" at one point. I'm keenly aware of this because he accused ME of authoring her posts.

 

 

Same diff. Again, Dawn got accused of the same when she was on my scum team. They said she didn't sound like herself. Using big words and such. And some were wondering if someone was feeding her posts. It's not a slight, imo. It's thinking outside the box. I could see how it would annoy her, if it weren't true. But beyond that *Shrugs*

 

I'm not saying I agree with DPR. While I AM getting a more experienced feel from her posts, it's possible she just has a very good mentor. 

 

I don't know, this just seems like an overreaction to me.

 

 

Or she's just very, very good.  I was writing posts like that in my first game, too, no mentor, no scum team (was town, popped Sirayn and a teammate D1, was very very proud ), just a natural facility for logic, argument, and writing. In fact, I'm willing to bet Cass has all of that in spades; if not, then unless both Dice and Yates are scum on a team with Cass, I would assume that at least one of the two of them would be wondering very vocally where she suddenly developed these new-found abilities.

 

I have no idea whether her content is accurate - I know it's not on me, and Wes is not playing at all out of character for him as either scum or town, so while he could be scum, I have literally no reason to think so at the moment.  But the idea that there's no way a new player could get to Cass' results on her own ... it just isn't true, as I know from experience.  It isn't common, but it happens. 

 

So ... she could be scum getting fed content from teammates, could be scum getting this content on her own, could be town getting fed content from a mentor or could be town getting this content on her own.  Since it's a null tell either way (coached/uncoached and puppeted/unpuppeted fit equally well as scum or town), I'm going to do her the honor of assuming that, town or scum, she's playing on talent, not puppetry or coaching. 

 

Suggest you all do the same, if only to save the egg on your faces when - if she's as good as I think she is, and can be - she's routinely kicking all of your asses in future games.

 

 

 

Kiv, right now I   you for this, obviously.

 

But do me a favour and LINK ME YOUR OTHER POST!. For whatever reason I'm an idiot and cannot work out ISO. It could be, because, although I have a facility for logic, arguments and writing, I AM NOT A TECHY and I'M FLIPPING SLOW ON HERE!

 

And I'd really, really like to read your post and go to bed. The sun is coming up again. I lovehate this game.

[Nynaeve]

What I want to know is WHY you're reading me as null, not Town. And whether the possibility-of-a-mentor-thing has something to do with that view.

 

Cos, again, I guess I want to know If you take a sec to think at everything I've written from the angle that I have written it, would it change your read of me/help convince you that I'm Town.

 

I ask because that seemed to work for Wombat.

 

Wombat - help me/her out?

 

I don't have a read on you yet. Keep posting your thoughts and I'll develop a read eventually. Usually I mix up meta with content and general experience with a player's style. In your case I lack familiarity, as with DPR and Kivam. In these cases I take more time to develop a read. So keep doing what you've been doing. 

 

You having a mentor has nothing to do with it. I have a mentor too *shrugs*

[Cass]

 

What I want to know is WHY you're reading me as null, not Town. And whether the possibility-of-a-mentor-thing has something to do with that view.

 

Cos, again, I guess I want to know If you take a sec to think at everything I've written from the angle that I have written it, would it change your read of me/help convince you that I'm Town.

 

I ask because that seemed to work for Wombat.

 

Wombat - help me/her out?

 

I don't have a read on you yet. Keep posting your thoughts and I'll develop a read eventually. Usually I mix up meta with content and general experience with a player's style. In your case I lack familiarity, as with DPR and Kivam. In these cases I take more time to develop a read. So keep doing what you've been doing. 

 

You having a mentor has nothing to do with it. I have a mentor too *shrugs*

 

 

Ok cool. Thanks.

[Leelou]

 

I literally cannot catch up. Whenever I finish reading one page, there's a new page to read.

 

I hate you all.

 

(except Lee <3)

 

This has been my evening.

 

 

This is me right now. Can't catch up in between meetings. 

[Sili Quirrels]

at times like these, i am reminded i haven't seen ragnarok around ever since he promised me he'd post more.

[Stelio Kontos]

 

 

Cass, you say you're caught up, but haven't reacted at all to my post responding to your questions that you said you really wanted answered.  That seems ... inconsistent with your other play in this thread.  What's up?

 

 

Kiv I missed this til now. I don't think I've even seen the post you're referring to. Hold up.

 

But if you're still here. What's your current take on me and DPR based on our most recent interactions?

 

 

heh.  Welcome to my life.

 

Re Wes - I'm with Wombat and Barm, both players who have played with Wes a lot.  (They call his play scummy; I call it townsided, because it's genuinely his play when town and I've seen it absolutely crush, though when he's scum that makes an excellent cover).  I completely understand why a player without history on Wes would read it as dodgy, but he's too good a player and too useful an asset to throw out on a Day 1 gut-call.  And for all the reads, suspicions, and evidence, it's vitally important to remember that is all Day 1 is - without confirmed alignments on multiple players, it's really hard to form judgments on anyone with any certainty.  I listed 5 players as highest on my suspicion list, because of their interactions and play, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if none of them are scum, because these are Day 1 suspicions. 

 

That's why information lynching (sorry, Yates, I've got to) is so important on Day 1.  Some people treat Day 1 as a throw away because it's all guesswork, which is a disaster; all that gets you is a Day 2 with little information more than you started Day 1 with.  Thankfully, that hasn't been the play this game - although Stelio was nodding towards it a bit and Hallia's total absence is scary but might be attributable to "it's just Day 1" error.  Others treat Day 1 the same as an endgame scumhunt, tunneling on or bulldogging their favorite "reads" and hunches as though they were supported by evidence rather than supposition.  That's just as much a disaster, because the odds of those reads being right is vanishingly small, and it leaves the town with less information than there should have been.  The town's biggest advantage is numbers, which means we can afford and profit from an early mislynch if it leads to a better chance for the town to win long term.

 

Getting back to Wes - as I said, he's a null read to me.  Sentimentally, I don't want him dead D1 in my first game in 2 years.  And logically, I don't want him dead D1 because if he's actually town, he can be a huge help in a town win.  So do I trust him?  You know the answer to that.  But will I lynch him today?  Absolutely not.

 

 

I think you sort of misunderstand my position, probably because I haven't really explained it.

 

There are certain things that can usefully be gleaned on day 1, but they are exclusively meta based (if so-and-so posts 100 times, they're always a villager because they have post volume tells, for instance).  It's hard, no, let me rephrase, it's stupid to go after people simply for their ideas.  Thought processes, maybe, kinda, but those are also very player dependent and meta based.

 

And as someone with essentially zero meta playing with any of you, for me day 1 is pretty close to a crapshoot. 

 

And I get what you're saying, insofar as I haven't really put a lot out there to be digested or to connect myself to other people very much -- but that's because, frankly, you're mostly talking about stuff that I have no intelligent input on.  And that's what you SHOULD be talking about.  But I'd rather not interject opinions that I would be 100% pulling out of my ass, because that doesn't help anyone.

[Nynaeve]

Des shurgged at me. I feel dirty.

[Kivam]

A random aside, by the way: I'm not really happy with the talk about "lynching people for information" -- ever, really, but especially on day 1.  Like, if you lynch a villager, what information do you expect to get other than "welp, they flipped villager even though a significant number of people, certainly including a few villagers because that's how math works, thought he was wolfy"? 

 

How about we just lynch the wolfiest people and hope they flip wolf?

 

Assuming you mean that question honestly rather than playing it off, here's what I look for:

1) Lynchfuel - was there a moment when the lynch was subtly kicked into high gear, by a vote or an argument?  Can find scum here with more regularity than randomness would allow

 

2) Competing trains - who else was on the block, and were they scum (info that might not be immediately apparent D2, but may become so later)?  If so, look for scum shifting momentum away from a teammate and towards the other candidate, even if not necessarily defending the teammate in any obvious way; and, in contrast

 

3) Throwaway votes - especially where both trains are on innocents, I look for people hanging out with votes in odd places, candidates who, by near day's end, stand no realistic chance of getting lynched.  Got to take into account people who simply weren't around EoD when an early vote became throwaway (if everyone on Arsis moves to me, and someone who shows up only after deadline is left as the last vote on Arsis, that's circumstances, not throwaway), but other than that, people who waste voting opportunities are often scum looking to stay "clean" by not being involved in lynching a townie.  That's even more true when both the top options were townies.

 

Sure, lynching scum would give us more info, and those pieces of evidence aren't exactly fool proof.  But "welp, they flipped villager, who knows" is not the only deduction to be made from an innocent flip, and over time, they can accumulate into real solid evidence.

[Nynaeve]

Stelio is very alluring.

[Yates]

Stelio is very alluring.

Nyn - will you yell at me again if I make another thread about basic mafia theory arguments? I don't want to shove anything down your throat...  

[Kivam]

Was holding off on the Kiv thing to see if he was going to bite at people voting him for his catchup posts but he never really did.  Kind of odd to see him not even address votes so I've been content to leave it for now but before I go (an hour and a half left) I'll probably change it since there isn't much there.  

 

It's Day 1, and I'm playing with a bunch of people who never played with me before but seem to have heard my name.  Why would I be riled up by getting voted?

[Nynaeve]

 

Stelio is very alluring.

Nyn - will you yell at me again if I make another thread about basic mafia theory arguments? I don't want to shove anything down your throat...  

 

I will probably stay away to keep my squirrely wrath in check.  >.>

 

Also...

 

[Yates]

Sure, lynching scum would give us more info...

Nobody cares, Kivam. Just pretend we've all played a game or two of mafia before and that we already know what happens after a lynch. Cool? Cool.

[hazelkrs1]

I think this is hilarious, Des. Cause you're basically underestimating her and saying there's no way she could fake this as scum considering it's her first game. But the word on the street is that she's a prodigy that's gonna be upstaging us all soon, according to Kivam.... so I think I'm gonna size her up the same way I size up everyone else. ktanks.

I didn't say there was NO WAY she could fake this as scum, I just find it highly unlikely.

 

It's one thing to pick up the elements of scumhunting very quickly, quite another to be able to fake tone as scum that well imo, and do that rambling sort of thing that would be MUCH more likely to accidentally let something slip when rambling like that

[csarmi]

 

Darthe my main concern with you is you preempting the Despo tunnel on you and your convoluted early posts.

I've preempted Des tunneling me several times because, as I said in the beginning, he does it a lot.  I don't get what would sketch you out about that.  Des tunnels me a lot.  Des is wrong a lot.  The two are inclusive facts of my experiences with him in mafia games.  

 

Convoluted?

 

 

I mean you pointed out that "oh Des gonna tunnel me" to pre-empt his attack on you.

 

Convoluted as in your first posts were hard to comprehend. You usually sound clearer to me.

 

I think my best towntell on you is when I keep nodding my head (or shaking it) but understand what you mean (at least on a reread which didn't happen yet). I'm holding my read on you pending a recap which may or may not happen this weekend. Today is a lost cause already, I'm not in a good shape and I'll need to rest.

 

So Despo gotta carry the flag.

[Nynaeve]

 

Was holding off on the Kiv thing to see if he was going to bite at people voting him for his catchup posts but he never really did.  Kind of odd to see him not even address votes so I've been content to leave it for now but before I go (an hour and a half left) I'll probably change it since there isn't much there.  

 

It's Day 1, and I'm playing with a bunch of people who never played with me before but seem to have heard my name.  Why would I be riled up by getting voted?

 

 

Yeah, he's popular. Don't be jelly Derf.

[csarmi]

Sili is a strong independent woman and doesn't afraid of anything

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxFG7zAFJjk