[Standard] 11/10 Top Tier Vanilla+ Game Thread

[Krakalakachkn]

Oh, and @ Krak

 

Oh, and ##Sili

 

Why???

 

 

Sili has spent a hell of a time fumbling over himself.  His lack of care where he puts his vote wouldn't really bother me except that he's being blatantly casual with it, overselling it.  His post here puts it in perspective.  How does he expect his vote to put pressure on people if he's flinging it around and admitting that it doesn't matter where he puts it?  Answer: it doesn't and he contradicted himself on the issue.  This might be a bit of wifom, but Sili's post makes me think that he knows Despo is barking up the wrong tree with his reads.  Don't like Sili's interactions here or here.  He's playing a weird combination of "better than" and "less knowledgeable than" the rest of the players.  Like he's split on how to approach the game because he's trying to compensate for being a wolf.  He's right about Des misrepping him in the earlier quote, and tbh I misread that part from him too, but his explanation attempts to put the blame on the town for Sili's play rather than being accountable for his own play.  Kind of a hypocritical post from Sili here, Sili voted much quicker than AJ and for a joke reason, and the first bit makes it seem like Sili thinks there was a reason for AJ to vote him.  Here Sili contradicts himself on his Kivam read.  Vote on Arsis looks like a wolf floating with the current.

 

 

Taken from one of my very few worthwhile posts this game.

[WWWwombat]

AJ is lower than I'd expect.  Thane is infuriating.

[WWWwombat]

@Cass: Dont have time to respond to all of your stuff just now, but the Yates thing:

 

I think you still don't quite understand the concept of "Seer Cover". On the surface it can definitely be seen as a protown thing to do- if a bunch of people all claim Seer and give their "viewings" then it allows the real Seer to easily breadcrumb his or her viewings into the thread without worrying about the scum finding him or her.

 

Then, if the Seer dies at some point, town just has to look through their posts and see who the real viewings were

 

That's not why I have Yates as town tho, the main reason I have him as town now is associative- the people that have pushed him look scummy to me, and that I don't think he would have willingly attracted this much attention as scum

 

Cass has Monstr as mentor though so it doesn't make sense that she wouldn't understand seer cover.

[WWWwombat]

Des, feels like you might be trying to buddy Cass.

[WWWwombat]

Think I need a break.

[Kivam]

This is going to sound absurd but I need to reread my recaps before giving a solid answer.  My gut (which isn't so much my gut as my memory of who was defended/defending/shifted/shifting) says Sili, but it could also be Darthe or Arsis (Praya now, but since he hasn't bothered playing, it's all Arsis [in fact, if it's a close call after re-read, I may be amenable to a policy-lynch of Praya given: (a) suspicions generated by Arsis; (b) the half-remembered connections; and © the odds that if he's a townie, we wouldn't be losing anything valuable anyway]).  Other info targets would be Yates and Des, but they are lower on my list, Yates because he's probably been dealt with by too many players to provide much of a focus and Des because of the same thought process in the opposite direction; he's so all over the place that there are likely links/breadcrumbs to half the game in his posts.

[Kivam]

Crap - the problem with responding from memory and forgetting the player list.  Thane.  Thane probably slots in very high on the "info lynch" scale given the focus on him earlier and the responses to it.  Might even be the number 1 info play.  Really have to review those recaps once I get home.

[DPR]

 

There is a 0% chance that Yates does not understand what Kivam is getting at.

There is a 0% chance that you didn't understand the point I was trying to make.

 

I *know* what Kivam is trying to say. I restated it for him - which you are conveniently leaving out. But I'm saying is hogwash.

 

Kivam's point about mafiasplaining is dead on and that's what I accuse you of brushing away. I didn't leave anything out. 

 

I have a history with a number of players in the game. If someone that knows how I play says "Yates does or says this as Town or this as scum" and it's accurate? Who cares? That's nothing more than introducing some meta knowledge. And in this case, he was introducing meta knowledge BECAUSE HE WAS ASKED FOR IT. How this becomes "Des and Yates are now linked" is complete garbage.

 

Meta knowledge? Des jumped up to the podium and gave a Seer Cover seminar. He portrayed it as a mostly town oriented move, which supports you as you made the move. The connection I made was that after you made the claim, no further comment was necessary. So why bring it up?

 

My feeling was that you had caught some heat for the 3A bit and that Des was trying to make you look better by pointing out you townish, but not too townish move. It made you look better. 

 

It was just odd to me so early on D1. I pointed it out. Look what happened. 

 

I'm actually feeling okay about Des and seeing a lot of his Town tells so maybe this is all moot. But I don't like being set up for associative tells that aren't associative tells.

 

If his town tells include missing blatant sarcasm and obsessively posting about me, then I think we can all feel better, 'cause... damn. 

 

Awwww guys, we appreciate you and all but it's really not necessary.

Okay. No slack offered then. The next time either of you are "confused" about something or make mountains out of mole hills, I will assign the appropriate amount of scum points to it.

 

Like - how you avoid direct questions, for example. Super scummy.

 

I've avoided direct questions from Des. Des is a hysterical mess (or maybe you didn't notice - town tell?) I could go back and forth with him, but it's all going to degenerate into an emo-personal crapfest that nobody wants to hear and won't benefit the town in any way. 

 

I've answered other player's questions, no problem.

How you have illustrated cognitive dissonance throughout your WoT's. Super scummy.

 

I misspoke two names - neither of which had any bearing on the point I was trying to make. Sili doesn't even tag his quotes. This is like disregarding a post because spellcheck jacked a word. I did make both corrections as soon as they were pointed out.

 

How you have failed to recognize [new to DM] standard play as WIFOM. Super scummy.

 

Not following you here. Just because you re-name a belly-flop as a triple-gainer, it doesn't change what's WIFOM and what's not. You know that.

How you have failed to adjust your reads based on information that disproves your own logic. Super scummy.

 

I've been steadfast against "reads" the entire game. "Reads" are speculation. "Reads" are conjecture. I've pointed out possible trails to pick up if any of the players I named flip scum. 

 

Seriously, whatever y'all are doing with your reads and soul-searches is pretty much just jerking as far as I see it. It counts for nada until the bodies start falling. 

 

The only reason I haven't jumped on the DPR wagon is because I have been cutting you slack AND because I have meta info on Des that suggests that he can get tunnelly on Townies because he will find things to fit his narrative. While that is typically a scum tell, I have very recently come to realize that this is not alignment indicative *for Des*. [And when it goes wrong - it goes really wrong.]

 

1. You have meta info on Des.

2. It suggests that he gets "tunnelly" on Townies because he will find things to fit his narrative.

​3. That is usually a scum tell...

4. Except for Des - unless it goes really wrong

 

These are your points. WTF is the matter with you?

 

This is your quote from above:

 

"I'm actually feeling okay about Des and seeing a lot of his Town tells"

 

I assume this is because he's found a great many things to "fit his narrative", like overlooking sarcasm and just making shit up, and you're crossing your fingers that he isn't really wrong?

 

So how about you start reading the thread for context? And try adjusting your reads when context you didn't understand is given?

 

How about you play your way, I'll play mine and we'll see what happens. 

 

Pop quiz, hotshot; what's the difference between your reaction to all of the context provided surrounding "SeerGate" and Cass's reaction after Des "defended" Kivam when Cass didn't understand the "pop quiz hotshot" reference? Here's a hint; one of them is incredibly scummy and one of them is naturally townie.

 

Answer: Cass has no experience and no negative rep. Which is, of course, why you are conjuring Cass for your epic close. Kinda like borrowing the baby's halo. 

 

 

I'm in blue above.

[Barmacral]

 

 

 

 

 

Re: your comment on button pushing - I thought it was as much, but I'm still not sure I liked the way it came across... and your explanation doesn't clear that up? I was more unclear on the why than the what. I guess what I really wanted to say was  “Barm, were you jumping on a nothing in order to set Leelou up as scum, pushing such a nothing button because you're WILF?” I didn't really see a point for Town to push that button. Who's buttons exactly are you trying to push?

 

At that point in the game anyone at all, the game had just started and up to then there had been exactly zero real content. And it worked, multiple people responded and blew things out of proportion for what I entirely agree should have amounted to nothing.

 

So... is this you backtracking Barm?

 

Nope, clarifying.

 

 

Uh... but you initially had pushed on Leelou for something you're now saying was blown out of proportion... weren't YOU one of those blowing it out of proportion (I thought her comment about it being null, was well, null to town)

 

Ergo, this looks like backtracking now, unless I'm misremembering something.

 

 

More tomorrow but for now I want to respond to this and then I'm heading to bed. I don't see my post as blowing anything out of proportion, I asked one question and left the topic entirely alone until I addressed Cass and Nyn's questions/concerns today. I thought things started to get blown out of proportion with Darthe's response to Leelou, personally. Here it is here:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sup

Townie post.

Generic to the way I speak post.

Defending yourself against an accusation of being town? Weird.

Not really, that shouldn't be judged as a townie or non townie post.

 

That looks like a guilty conscience.  I've argued this with you before but meta is meta and pulling something out of a mostly arbitrary post isn't exclusively random.  

 

 

FYI - Verb is travelling for business this week, he says he'll have his phone and try to be around, but not to expect much from him. I'll be the main talking head in this hydra until he gets back.

[Sili Quirrels]

 

Oh, and @ Krak

 

Oh, and ##Sili

 

Why???

 

 

Sili has spent a hell of a time fumbling over himself.  His lack of care where he puts his vote wouldn't really bother me except that he's being blatantly casual with it, overselling it.  His post here puts it in perspective.  How does he expect his vote to put pressure on people if he's flinging it around and admitting that it doesn't matter where he puts it?  Answer: it doesn't and he contradicted himself on the issue.  This might be a bit of wifom, but Sili's post makes me think that he knows Despo is barking up the wrong tree with his reads.  Don't like Sili's interactions here or here.  He's playing a weird combination of "better than" and "less knowledgeable than" the rest of the players.  Like he's split on how to approach the game because he's trying to compensate for being a wolf.  He's right about Des misrepping him in the earlier quote, and tbh I misread that part from him too, but his explanation attempts to put the blame on the town for Sili's play rather than being accountable for his own play.  Kind of a hypocritical post from Sili here, Sili voted much quicker than AJ and for a joke reason, and the first bit makes it seem like Sili thinks there was a reason for AJ to vote him.  Here Sili contradicts himself on his Kivam read.  Vote on Arsis looks like a wolf floating with the current.

 

 

Taken from one of my very few worthwhile posts this game.

 

I don't know if I should respond in detail, but here I go.

 

So the shtick with the voting is I like to get familiar with the game before I delve in. I don't take it seriously, you know, until I have the lay of the land, and part of what helps me with that is throwing a little metaphorical weight around.

 

When I replied to strongstress I was responding to criticism and using an analogous hypothetical town to showcase what I meant. I wasn't talking about this town.

 

I adjusted my understanding of Kivam as I ruminated on my interactions with the thread and Kivam's gameplay. It's not a contradiction I changed my reads, so much as a development.

 

Red :: In both instances I was replying in a casual way, and in the first comment, to two different stimuli.

[Sili Quirrels]

 

 

 

 

Why do you have bad juju about us? You've said this several times but I don't recall you giving a reason for it.

 

Because your language is stilted language, and implies a guilty conscience? 

 

ironically, i was only grasping at straws. but the longer this goes unanswered, and the more i look at the wording, the more peculiar it sounds. usually i'm not one to read too much into content and structure but this sort of phrasing pings me as posturing from an inexperienced wolf.

 

how he centers himself by reiterating bad juju, or recaps to ask a question he probably should have made sooner compels me to think he was pointedly ignoring it but is now trying to demonstrate tact.

 

i guess i would like to know how experienced barm is, and whether he's made any other overtures to address nyn and co's concerns with his gameplay.

 

 

Actually deleted another quote from Sili that I thought looked bad (him buddying up to Rags then saying he intentionally dropped another scumtell) as I'm now thinking he COULD be town here (albeit some of my thinking there is associative), but I still wanted to comment on this post.

 

This was directed @ Barm, and the way he "follows up" on his post here looks incredibly fake and forced to me. If you look at the time stamps, he asked his "question" of Barm, then roughly half an hour later says that the longer the question goes unanswered the worse it looks?

 

 

Barm never posted during that time period either. Could be paranoia on Sili's part I guess, but again, this looked forced to me when I saw it, and still does.

Barm posted  a couple times in the interim, once in response to a post made by leelou, and another time to Darthe.

[hazelkrs1]

Go back to that page Sili- he didn't. You posted at 8:06 at the top of the page, he hadn't posted anything and 30 minutes later you made it seem like he wasn't answering your question

[Sili Quirrels]

 

____________________________________________________________________

 

Barmacral, on 11 Nov 2014 - 4:14 PM, said:

Any votes that are on pral are because of plays Arsis made and are still as valid regardless of the player switch, it is up to Pral to convince people that they are wrong about Arsis.

 

And on that note I'm off to bed. See you all tomorrow.

 

____________________________________________________________________

 

This is weird posturing because it assumes that Laya and Arsis have to face off and forces that mentality.  Why would Laya have to react that 

 

 

What? I don't understand you here. Are you suggesting that Prayala get a clean slate? I'm not posturing or forcing any mentality. Your comment is confusing and exceptionally weird.

 

 

 

 

The thread needs more of the pirate.

 

Definitely.

 

As so.

[Sili Quirrels]

Note the time stamps. If that fails you the sequence is found on page 42.

[Tommyrod]

Vote Count D1.12:

 

Pral (5): Wombat [#568], Nyn [#691], Yates [#698], Sili [#700], AJ [#1117]

Sili (3): Kivam [#362], Thane [#453], Krak [#1026]

Nyn (1): Pral [#416]

Cass (1): Dicefrogger [#287]

Yates (1): Darthe [#508]

DPR (1): Deslami [#1095]

 

Unvote (1): Verbarm [#243]

 

Not Voting (7): Cass, DPR, Hallia, Leelou, Stelio, Rags, Tress

 

At the gallows: Pral

 

[hazelkrs1]

Note the time stamps. If that fails you the sequence is found on page 42.

I stand corrected. Thank you for that Sili.

[WWWwombat]

I've decided that I don't think Sili is a good lynch.  I'm starting to think he's likely to flip town and idk if that would give us much info that we couldn't get by going after one of those Sili-nudgers that Kivam mentioned.  I'm not too hot on a Pral lynch either, but I'd rather not leave his wagon until we have a viable alternative to Sili.  Also, there is something to be said for refusing to give in to terrorists inactives.

[Stelio Kontos]

Greetings, salutations even.  I should be around* for the next couple hours to focus* on this, which includes probably re-reading the pages I've basically power skimmed so far** -- so ask me whatever.

 

 

* - does not include time distracted by kids, email, shiny objects, or TV

** - (all of them, basically)

[Sili Quirrels]

what's your opinion on cass?

 

i feel like clearing him would be unwise. dingus might have explained mind-melding, but cass replied he inferred its meaning from the thread. so i guess despothera might have mentioned it once or twice, but cass used it like he knew beyond a doubt what it meant.

 

i think maybe that's something i would do (i have), but i dunno. i think i need to keep one eye on him because it's possible the wolfpack are feeding him posts, or they're advising him to stay away from their thread until day 2.

 

@cass, dingus tutored you right - what was his advice should you rand scum in your first game?

[Stelio Kontos]

Not reviewing my earlier POE btw, so eh there could be some inconsistencies or something, but I'd rather line out what my reads are RIGHT NOW, instead of letting them be colored by stuff I saw much earlier in the game

 

Gray Nulls (pretty sure everyone has posted by this point, so this category would more appropriately be named "muddled", but eh I wanted to keep it in the same format:

 

Hallia

Rags

VerBarm

 

LOCK CLEAR BLUES (wanna say I'd never lynch from this group, worried someone will read too much into that statement or w/e, but yeah these are my strongest town reads and it would take like a slap in the face from one of them personally as well as a giant sign pointing to their being scum here for me to vote them anytime soon):

 

Cass

Nyn

Stelio

Thane

Wombat

Yates

 

 

Greens (lighter town reads):

 

AJ

Krak

Leelou

Tress

 

Oranges (lighter scum reads):

 

Sili

Dice

 

Reds (pretty much LOCK SCUM for me):

 

Pray

Kivam

Darthe

DPR

 

(bunch of explanation stuff snipped from above)

 

Overall, based on sort of spidey-sense stuff rather than deep insight, this feels like a pretty good list to me.  That said, the stuff I really don't like:

 

I have a pretty strong town read (not a peek) on Kivam and will be lynching probably anyone but him.  If I'm getting word bombed into thinking he's good, so be it and I'll let it work for a while.

I don't really agree with a town read on AJ -- have him in that null to slightly category.  (I have a feeling that our feelings about AJ are heavily influenced by our read on Kivam though.)

Don't have any read at all on Dice, can't remember a thing he's said so far.

 

I'd pretty contentedly lynch any of the other three red names on the list at this point.

 

 

As a random aside, I'm slightly sketched out by the people giving me solid town reads based on a half dozen posts.  I mean, I appreciate the confidence and all, but I would have thought that volume alone would make me a lot more suspicious than that.

[WWWwombat]

Stelio LOCK CLEAR

 

 

jk

[Stelio Kontos]

what's your opinion on cass?

 

i feel like clearing him would be unwise. dingus might have explained mind-melding, but cass replied he inferred its meaning from the thread. so i guess despothera might have mentioned it once or twice, but cass used it like he knew beyond a doubt what it meant.

 

i think maybe that's something i would do (i have), but i dunno. i think i need to keep one eye on him because it's possible the wolfpack are feeding him posts, or they're advising him to stay away from their thread until day 2.

 

@cass, dingus tutored you right - what was his advice should you rand scum in your first game?

 

If you're asking me, and you may as well be, I'd say "fairly solidly good, but based on a limited sample size".  It's really hard for new players to post large word bombs and not stick out like a sore thumb.  Unless the mentor is literally writing posts for Cass (and that would seem to sort of defeat the purpose of a mentor), there's reason to give a good town lean based on that alone.  From what I've read so far, Cass seems engaged, seems to be reading the thread and thinking about multiple topics, and is generally behaving like I'd expect a villager to.

 

That said (deep breath), it's day 1 and it's not like there's anything hard to pin that on and some people are naturally good at faking tone as a wolf, and I expect I'll have a better read on Cass in a day or two when there's more actual info to process, and there are more things for a scum to have to fake than sounding cheerful and curious.

[Stelio Kontos]

Stelio LOCK CLEAR

 

 

jk

if I'm the seer I peeked myself villager last night, can't be too careful

 

or maybe it was him villager

[WWWwombat]

I'm cranky and incurious.

[hazelkrs1]

Kivam prob does deserve to be more on my orange than red tbqh