Defining DM Mafia Roles and Balance

[WWWwombat]

You're putting the cart before the horse. And believe me I totally understand the emphasis you want to put on tactics because yes that is where the meat of the game really is but you can't get to that meat without preparing and cooking it first. The first thing every player needs to learn in a game is what the "pieces" do. What's possible and impossible, what are the ins and outs? After that is established is when a player moves on to learning the best way to manipulate those "pieces" and why. I think you and others are having your perspective colored by virtue of already knowing how to play so you emphasize what is important to you which is tactics not mechanics because you already know the fundamentals.

 

Yes but without knowing how a knight moves you'll never be able to learn how to fork in the first place.

 

I don't see semi-open setups as being an obstacle to that though.  If you can't be bothered to read up on some roles that might be in the game, then you probably aren't going to be putting in much effort in the first place.

[Nolder]

I don't see semi-open setups as being an obstacle to that though.  If you can't be bothered to read up on some roles that might be in the game, then you probably aren't going to be putting in much effort in the first place.

Yeah no there is a massive difference between semi open and closed.

I am ok with semi open...I just don't see the point other than gratifying vets and mods.

That's all I'm saying. Semi open is a fine option and way better than closed.

Like...I really think closed setups should be outright banned for Basic.

If it's a closed setup it should be Standard or Advanced imo.

 

 

Edit: also, and this is kind of offtopic, I think DM has an affinity for closed setups and I'm not sure why. Open setups are a lot of fun. Some of the best games I've ever played were open setups. I don't understand the aversion so many people have for them. It leads me to believe that DM puts more emphasis on storytelling/scenes and "gotcha" roles and mechanics than actual gameplay. Which makes sense because first and foremost this is a forum for a fantasy book series. I just find it disappointing that there aren't many mafia for mafia's sake enthusiasts here. I will play the same (balanced) setup with no theme 50 times in a row because I love playing mafia. I think most here do not feel the same way.

[WWWwombat]

People seemed to enjoy Des bringing over the VS Hunt setup.  Some of it is probably an affinity for flavor and mystery, but a lot of it is inertia too imo.

[Nolder]

People seemed to enjoy Des bringing over the VS Hunt setup.  Some of it is probably an affinity for flavor and mystery, but a lot of it is inertia too imo.

I don't know what you mean.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

want to make something even less fun?

 

make it a requirement.

 

a better model for change IMO is the way the hybrid hammer has crept into use.

 

I don't like it but a lot of players and mods seem

to and no one changed any rules or forced people

to comply.

 

they just ran some games with it and the idea caught on.

[Yates]

want to make something even less fun?

 

make it a requirement.

Well, technically there are requirements on ANY mafia game wrt balance etc. So this isn't a fantastic argument to make either. Plus, you need to define the rules for a new setup so everyone understands them if they are going to play in that sandbox. Just my opinion.

[Tommyrod]

Lots of conservatives and libertarians ITT

[Nolder]

Lots of conservatives and libertarians ITT

Sup.

[Tommyrod]

Progressive here

 

Refuse to kowtow to your 20th century mafia traditions

[WWWwombat]

 

People seemed to enjoy Des bringing over the VS Hunt setup.  Some of it is probably an affinity for flavor and mystery, but a lot of it is inertia too imo.

I don't know what you mean.

 

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/88433-advanced-dragonmount-witchhunt-v10-signups-are-now-open-just-like-the-setup-p/

 

It's a complicated setup but entirely open.

[WWWwombat]

TopTierTroll

[Nolder]

 

 

People seemed to enjoy Des bringing over the VS Hunt setup.  Some of it is probably an affinity for flavor and mystery, but a lot of it is inertia too imo.

I don't know what you mean.

 

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/88433-advanced-dragonmount-witchhunt-v10-signups-are-now-open-just-like-the-setup-p/

 

It's a complicated setup but entirely open.

 

I despise games that rely on in jokes among friends. Too exclusive and not very fun if you're not part of the crowd.

 

Also I meant the inertia thing.

[Nolder]

Progressive here

 

Refuse to kowtow to your 20th century mafia traditions

Obstructionist.

[Leelou]

I don't think open set ups should be overly common. If people want to mod them, fine. I thought there was already a list for roles allowed in basic games? I don't really mind taking a look at that list and seeing if things should be added or removed though. I actually dislike the hybrid hammer. 

 

Will post more, I have to go park my boss's car. Don't ask. 

[WWWwombat]

It wasn't really about in-jokes though because Des took the setup from another site and just slapped new names on the roles.  As for inertia, people tend to do what's comfortable.  People are more comfortable with closed setups here because that's what they're used to.  Personally, I enjoy closed setups more, but I like to play the occasional open one.

[Tommyrod]

I've had a lot of success recently in keeping games running one after the other on POG by hosting open setup games. We discuss the roles in the signup thread and then I decide on something and run it. The players seem to prefer open for the most part. So there's ways to make it appealing.

[Arsis]

I'm not going to read this whole thread. I just have one thing to say about what qas going on in the first few pages. Dont link to mafiascum for roles if that isn't how they work. That has nothing to do with your artistic license andnis just sloppy, lazy and game breaking. If the official resource for dm mafia says a role works a certain way and I look it up there after being directed to look there it should work that way. You should either stop setting false expectations or just go along with the roles.

[WWWwombat]

Good point.

[Clovdyx]

 

 

People seemed to enjoy Des bringing over the VS Hunt setup.  Some of it is probably an affinity for flavor and mystery, but a lot of it is inertia too imo.

I don't know what you mean.

 

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/88433-advanced-dragonmount-witchhunt-v10-signups-are-now-open-just-like-the-setup-p/

 

It's a complicated setup but entirely open.

 

 

My favorite thing about this is Despot named the role that only becomes useful at/near endgame after himself.

[Clovdyx]

I don't think open set ups should be overly common. If people want to mod them, fine. I thought there was already a list for roles allowed in basic games? I don't really mind taking a look at that list and seeing if things should be added or removed though. I actually dislike the hybrid hammer. 

 

Will post more, I have to go park my boss's car. Don't ask. 

 

If there''s a list on what's allowed in basic games, I haven't seen it.  The welcome thread says this:

 

A Basic game will contain standard mafia roles. There are no recruiting roles or complex roles used, and the mafia/town ratio will be consistent with guides found on the mafiascum site linked above (usually ~25% mafia/scum).

 

 

But it doesn't define what is, or isn't, a standard mafia role.  It links to this page earlier as "a solid guide to many roles you'd find within any given mafia game", but I don't think anybody could reasonably argue half of those as standard roles.

[Verbal32]

Also, I suspect long time DM Mafia types to have some strong opinions [*cough* Verb *cough*].

 

Indeed, heh.

 

 

 

 

Basic and Standard are different gametypes here, right? I don't actually know what the distinction is. I was thinking of making a template for Basic and allowing mod freedom for Standard and higher.

 

They used to be - I merged them years ago.

 

 

 

 

I also don't quite understand where Nolder and Darthe are coming from with their criticisms.  Darthe, I ran a very non-standard game with you and had a blast.  Some people took to it more quickly than others, but no one was outright hostile to the concept.

 

I have been on DM for a long time.  We used to call Cops "Finders" and Doctors "Healers."  Some mods also used to prohibit night chat.  Mods never provided safe claims or prohibited character claiming when I first came here.  There are definitely some others I can't think of right now.  All of these things are things that have changed because enough players and mods decided that they should.  And it all happened organically, without Verbal or anyone else in authority saying that it should or shouldn't happen.  So if Verbal is reluctant to make drastic changes without community support, that is because that is how things have worked for a while on DM.  And it has worked.  Without much drama.  Things that people like stick around and things that they don't, don't.  People here are resistant to change, but so are most people.  If your ideas are good enough, they will make it into the metagame.

 

(Also, Healer might be a good name for a DM-style self-protect doc assuming it isn't a standard role somewhere else.  I've stopped trying to keep up with MafiaWiki and other places renaming and adding/removing roles)

 

DINGDINGDINGDING, we have winner.

 

 

 

To clarify:  when having a beer with Yates and to avoid him continuing to look longingly into my eyes, I awkwardly changed to topic to DM Mafia.  We spoke, he kept trying to hold my hand, but we eventually spoke about how certain roles work, what should be known before hand, etc etc.

 

I told him to start a thread for discussion because of what Wombat said above.  I'm not going to tell people what they can and cannot do.  If we all agree on some clarifications, then I'm all for it.

 

If everybody wants to have 3 types of games, where 1 of them is a template-driven setup where role mechanics are very standardized and adherence to them is required, then cool.  As Nolder said, 2/3 of the types will allow mods like Nyn and whoever to make whatever pleases them, and have their roles work in whatever way they want.

 

But the reason I merged Basic & Standard is because we didn't have enough players to realistically field games in all categories.  A long time ago, Docs could not self-protect.  But like all things on DM, mafia evolved into what we know of it today.  I'm not going to make significant changes unless the vast majority of the mafia community here is on-board and looking forward to it.

[Yates]

To clarify:  when having a beer with Yates and to avoid him continuing to look longingly into my eyes, I awkwardly changed to topic to DM Mafia.  We spoke, he kept trying to hold my hand, but we eventually spoke about how certain roles work, what should be known before hand, etc etc.

Way to throw me under the bus and make it look like *I* was the creeper there. I mean, a fella accepts a drink from another fella and certain expectations are set.

 

Plus. Look at the way you were dressed. You were ASKING for it in that vintage Star Wars tee.

[Verbal32]

 

To clarify:  when having a beer with Yates and to avoid him continuing to look longingly into my eyes, I awkwardly changed to topic to DM Mafia.  We spoke, he kept trying to hold my hand, but we eventually spoke about how certain roles work, what should be known before hand, etc etc.

Way to throw me under the bus and make it look like *I* was the creeper there. I mean, a fella accepts a drink from another fella and certain expectations are set.

 

Plus. Look at the way you were dressed. You were ASKING for it in that vintage Star Wars tee.

 

 

I know, but there are rules to gain access to the entity otherwise known as Verbalicious.

 

 

1. Buy me a beer [COMPLETE]

2. Buy me 2 beers [OPEN]

3. ??? [OPEN]

4.  Profit! [OPEN]

[Verbal32]

Asking for it?!  I'm not that easy!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wait, did the Star Wars t-shirt do it for you?

[Yates]

Would it upset everyone greatly if I just went ahead and created a new thread that listed about 25 roles and included descriptions for each one?

 

In fact, I could make it so mods could copy and paste the roles right into their games IF THEY SO CHOSE TO.

 

As a mod you could say, "we are using some of these roles" and link to my thread IF YOU WANTED TO.

 

Would this be less objectionable to everyone currently opposed to changing the world?