[Standard] Cory vs. Bad Dietary Habits & Laziness Mafia, Mafia Sweep

[hazelkrs1]

 

Sooooooo much wrong with these posts by Pray

 

1. Just because you did some of that type of stuff as scum in another game doesn't mean Arsis would be scum here- that just means you were doing a good job of blending in as scum there

2. You immediately contradict yourself because you seem to think Arsis shouldn't be cleared for the reasons I gave, except then you try and say Arsis WASN'T doing those things

3. Don't think you have NEAR enough of a handle on Arsis' meta to try and use that against him. I don't even have a firm grasp on his meta yet, and I'm pretty sure I'm in a better sport regarding that than you (more games with him, have modded him)

4. Following Turin a lot arent ya? Not just with trying to say Arsis is scummy, but also with the buzzword thing. HOW does "wagonomics" say Arsis is scum, after ONE lynch that turned out to be on a 3P?

5. Vos legit "slipped" and got himself lynched- people getting on board with his lynch weren't really bandwagoning just because they voted him. In fact, even when Arsis voted Vos he was STILL saying how he thought TI was likely scum.

 

Look at the difference between how Turin reacted to the Vos wagon and how Arsis reacted. Turin was voting Arsis at the time, then Tommy and I cleared Arsis, while somewhere around the same time noticing Vos' really bad post. Turin just dropped the Arsis thing completely, even tho the two people who cleared Arsis both were "suspects" for him. Arsis otoh was paying attention to multiple people, and also thought Turin was scum. He looked more like he was legit sold on Vos being scum, but continued to still voice his suspicion on Turin, didn't drop it like a dog who just found a juicier bone.

 

6. Tone wise it looks like you're doing something akin to the "Scum mad for being caught for wrong reasons" thing. You look more like you're mad that town are clearing each other for what you think aren't good reasons, not like you seriously have this big suspicion on Arsis. You're responding more to people clearing Arsis than trying to point out actual inconsistencies in his play or something. Wolfy

 

 

 

1. Yes, it doesn't mean that Arsis would do the same thing. However, what I am pointing out is that you cannot "LOCK CLEAR" someone over those simple reasons. You can read him as town, not a problem but lock clearing someone is ridiculous

2. I have more than just this to think Arsis is scum. I don't see where I am contradicting when I am just pointing out how your "LOCK CLEAR" reasons look bad

3. I have played 3-4 games with him and it is usually enough for me to get a handle on a meta. It is irrelevant  how much you have played with him

4. I have already explained how I think he is scummy based on wagonomics  in this post

 

The votes that stand out in the vos train are Arsis and Darthe.

 

Arsis vote came at a time when the votes were closely tied and it was the point where it tipped towards Vos. Definitely trying to put the focus away from him. His vote was also meh. He just sheeped SlenderMan's and Des' arguments against vos.

 

5. Vos might have slipped. But, that was neither pointed out by Arsis or pursued by him. If you go back and look at his vote, he just sheeped the reasons for his vote off you and Slender. And, that is why it is opportunistic.

 

 

So apparently you're scum this game, huh Pray?

 

So, is this where you call those who disagrees with your reads as scum? We have had this before in other games and it usually turns out that I am right at the end of the day. Even had instances where I and Cory have just sheeped your reads as scum and you have lock cleared us as town. What can i say? You never learn. 

 

 

1. I can LOCK CLEAR someone for whatever I want. You don't like it? Tough cookie. But those are all legit towntells, and I can easily back them up with posts, and your scumbuddy Turin essentially spewed Arsis as town anyways

2. Let me state my point simpler. You basically said "You can't LOCK CLEAR TG for doing ______" and then said "TG didn't do ______" Those two points don't make sense side by side

3. I def disagree, and furthermore the only people I've seen you use meta are people you have EXTENSIVE experience with, but go ahead and humor me. How is he off his town meta, and give examples from other games, and how is he on his scum meta, again with examples. If you can't reasonably answer both of those, then you're essentially admitting to being scum

4. I was already planning on responding to that post, but spoiler alert is that your justification there is really poor and again, that's not really wagonomics. Wagonomics is more when you have a confirmed scum train and can analyze the countertrain, or have a town train which already has most the people on it confirmed or cleared one way or another. You're just throwing out buzzwords to try and strengthen a weak case

5. The point is he didn't try and overjustify his Vos vote, he didn't parrot what others said, he pretty much said "Despot and Slendy convinced me" which is totally understandable from a town POV, because me and Slendy both made convincing arguments that were both essentially half right (Vos wasn't town). And even while placing the vote, he was still discussing his other scum reads, especially Turin.

 

I like how you're at this point completely dodging talking about Turin btw

 

Again, compare what Arsis did to what Turin did. Like look at the arguments Tommy was making yesterday. Turin dropped his Arsis read like an old hat even tho the two people that cleared him were supposedly suspicious to him. Then he acts all howdy doody about "catching" Vos and doesn't mention Arsis at all, till the lynch was already settled.

 

Please try and tell me that Arsis had a scummier vote there compared to Turin's. I'd LOVE to hear the reasoning

 

 

6. The last bit is prob the worst part of your post- you just trying to talk about how right you were in other games (when you weren't even "right" at all, you were scum) which is basically obvious posturing because you don't in any way say how that is relevant to THIS game. Like how do you KNOW you're right this time, and that I'm not just awesome on the trail of scum? And why are you handling me like I'm just "silly wrong Despot" instead of Deep Wolf Despot?

 

7. Also why did you completely skip over my point about you cherrypicking Arsis' post about the Poisoner, when Yates was the one who revived that whole discussion?

[hazelkrs1]

 

There is less than zero reason to talk about TG's alignment Csarmi. The sooner you realize this the sooner I'll stop wanting to wrangle your neck like Homer choking Bart.

 

He's likely town.

 

He already claimed (Miller)

 

He's poisoned, so there's a very good chance he'll be resolved soon anyways.

 

SO FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY, STOP FREAKING TALKING ABOUT STUFF THAT DOESNT MATTER TODAY CSARMI

Despo, are you advocating that TG not be healed? Because otherwise he isn't getting resolved any time soon.

 

The rest looks like super defending without good cause.

 

 

Yeah Turin. I'm advocating TG not be healed

 

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

 

Fwiw, and Csarmi might not like this, but I actually dont think there IS a Healer this game. I think he's bluffing about that to draw a NK or something. Seems very Salami-ish.

 

But yeah, I have made my stance clear MANY times about whether or not I want him healed. Keep reaching buddy

 

[hazelkrs1]

 

 

 

Could someone come up with flavor for a town vig that poisons? I legit can't. I've been thinking about what is healthy and good for you that could be used as poison?

 

Anti-biotics? No, doesn't fit? Alcohol? Would probably be scum. Vaccines? Dountful. Flu-shot? That's a stretch and it wouldn't be poison imo.

 

That alone is probably the best evidence in favor of tg if the early claim and gameplay haven't sold you. It's a scum/3rd party shot.

 

Also, how posts like this is helping solving the game? Looks more like a distraction

 

 

See now THIS is a better example of an opportunistic push. YES, that post from Arsis wasn't really helping to solve, but numerous people were discussing it for a while, and I even tried scolding him to stop. But it's not like Arsis has only focused on stuff like this all game- he has many times shown that he is paying attention to stuff that will help resolve player slots, not just mechanic and setup stuff. So you cherrypicking this post, instead of say calling out Yates for recirculating a lot of the Poisoner talk to begin with, looks incredibly wolfy on your part

 

Do you actually not see the difference between talking about role of a poisoner vs the character of a poisoner? The former is still setup talk, the latter is nothing. It is neither setup nor solving nor anything useful. 

 

Also, I have already called Yates scum even before you started talking about him. So, try something else.

 

 

Missed this before-

 

Pray quote for me where you called Yates scum. Better yet summarize your points on him first.

 

And no, I don't think there is a valid distinction there. In both cases they were talking about stuff that wasn't really that helpful to town. In Arsis' case tho I think he was legit tinfoiling, where imo Yates was obfuscating

[hazelkrs1]

Alright you guys are right

 

I'm kind of ashamed of myself to be honest and I have no excuse for my play.

 

I promise I'll step it up and give you a full analysis when I get home (I re fixed my computer last night, so yay.)

 

Don't worry, I'm a villager and I'll try my hardest to make that really obvious.

 

This looked like a townie response to the slight pressure Monstr was starting to get, altho mebbe I just WANT to read Monstr as town so I can feel I soulread him right so fast

[hazelkrs1]

 

Official Vote Count:

 

Arsis (3) – dice, Pral, Halligeddon, 

TI (3) –  GleMeri, nervositee, manbat

Nervositee (7) - Des, TheSlenderMan, TI, Arsis, Tomstress, AJ, Darthe

Halligeddon (3) - Yates, SickPuppets, Krak

 

 

Not Voting (1): Torrey_Smith's_Brother

 

With 17 alive, it takes 9 to lynch!

 

Majority was not met, but deadline was. Nervositee was lynched!

 

 

Scene incoming.

 

 

 

The votes that stand out in the vos train are Arsis and Darthe.

 

Arsis vote came at a time when the votes were closely tied and it was the point where it tipped towards Vos. Definitely trying to put the focus away from him. His vote was also meh. He just sheeped SlenderMan's and Des' arguments against vos.

 

[unvote] [v]vos[/v]

 

 

Pulling those quotes up actually convinced me.

 

I'm still scum lean on turi. Darthe also weirded me out by being being almost spot on with my meta and then saying I'm scum for being in my town meta.. It was just strange. Tsb is still scum if anyone is curious.

 

 

Darthe's votes came at the fag end of the day when it was almost sure that vos would be lynched. Looked more like an attempt to get brownie points. Irrespective of his vote, vos would have been lynched.

 

 

Irt Arsis: How was he "definitely" trying to put the focus away from him? Focus had already shifted, so this point looks like total bs to me. Your vote and Dice's vote on him were stale votes, ie had been parked there long before. I already explained how him saying Slender and I convinced him actually isn't that bad, and again- even while switching his vote he's still discussing his other scum candidates. Also Arsis wasn't the only one who followed on to the reasoning Slender and I laid out- so why do you pick him out of the others who did so?

 

Irt Darthe: Firstly before Darthe switched his vote, Halligeddon had 4 votes, and Vos 6, so it was def still feasible that Halligeddon could have gotten lynched instead. More importantly however- think about what you're saying for a second. You think scum!Darthe voted Vos for "brownie points". This makes no freaking sense tho- if Darthe were scum, he would have known Vos wasn't on his team (so was presumably town). Since when would helping to lynch a townie help get someone "brownie points"?

[hazelkrs1]

 

Chinese fire drill. Start a new wagon. Like so:

 

[unvote]

 

[v]Pralaya[/v]

 

Classy. Trying to speed lynch when you knew that I would be absent. It is a scummy move but I have seen you do that as a townie and with success. Good thing it didn't happen.

 

 

I had suspicions of Pral early in the game for his opening post(s). I went back and looked at his play in Twilight as mafia and his play as town in Dr. Who and I found something I think might be a tell for him; a habit of writing paragraphs that have too many forced connectors. He'll say things like "And there, I found" or "And while I'm on the topic" to connect thoughts that don't flow easily from an organic thought process.

 

He also doesn't have much to say. I noticed in the prior town games of his that I looked at, he had one common theme: detailed reads list. Absent here. He's given very one-dimensional reasons for his stances, so simplistic that I don't see how they can be real.

 

Here's his reasoning for voting Arsis:

 

"Vote: Arsis on that note. [<--- on that note is one of those connectors I was talking about]

 

From what I have caught up so far (around 35 pages), he comes across as being too concerned for what people talk against him and trying to influence actions on others. In the few games I have played with him, he seems care-free in the first few days and that tone is missing in this game."

 

Yates, I guess, I have talked about him in my earlier posts."

Posts like: "Not sure about the new people yet. Despo looks slightly townish so far." or "Ok, caught up a bit more and Arsis seems as bad as I had him before. So, my vote stays there."

 

Just very SIMPLE. Too simple.

 

I see some bits of townish phrasing in his posts too, but I'm definitely concerned.

 

I do use a detailed read list a lot but I do that both as scum or town. And, i don't do it in all games. And, definitely don't do it on D1.  It was clear that i was still in the process of grasping the game while getting the reads of players. 

 

As to the argument that my reasoning was very simple, I agree that in some places it was. The Arsis read is not, though. I have a strong scum read on him and at that time, it was a pure meta read. 

 

You have been after me whole of D1, but you are barking up the wrong tree. I am town and that's all I can say now.

 

 

So Pray is def PR hinting here (which I find scummy) but he's also handling Tommy here like he KNOWS Tommy is town. Also he says Tommy has been after him all of D1, but that just isn't true. Tommy brought Pray up a couple times, mainly to reference his inactivity, but only started a true push towards EOD.

[Tommyrod]

[hazelkrs1]

 

I'd like everyone to make it absolutely clear whether they'd like TG to be healed. Before the day ends.

 

Thank you.

 

Frankly, I am surprised you are claiming healer. Because I thought you were scum before this. The reaction on D1 for TG's character claim (food-based) was totally different from what I was expecting as a town character (8 hours of sleep)

 

 

Pray avoids the question here even tho he quotes it, but how is a food-based (nutrient) totally different from ~8 hours of sleep? Both obviously help get the body in good shape, I don't see how you think that they're totally different

 

 

Underwhelmed, Pral.

 

Don't see a natural train of thought in the order you present things and how you point out things you've (to my recollection) never referred to before.

 

Tom taught me a fun bit of terminology in one game: 'terminating' vs. 'open-ended'. 'Terminating' stances and statements on everything, as in needs to 'close' the discussion/thought that was started for the sake of having contributed and appearing Pro-Town.

 

Seems 'blocky' and artificial is what I'm saiyan'.

 

No idea how to convince you then. I am good reader of people but a bad putting-those-reads-on-text kind of guy. That is why I have a hard time convincing people of my reads in every game. 

 

 

Pulling the "Poor me is bad at explaining my reads" card imo

[hazelkrs1]

Csarmi I have a question. Since town is made up of things that help Cory and what not, isn't it odd that Cory doesn't believe you exist? It should be about how you've helped Cory not how he doesn't think you exist, correct? 

 

 

 

 

Csarmi I have a question. Since town is made up of things that help Cory and what not, isn't it odd that Cory doesn't believe you exist? It should be about how you've helped Cory not how he doesn't think you exist, correct?

To be fair, it fits the overall theme of choice. I wouldn't be surprised to see something like 3/4 hours of sleep on the mafia side if it's not a fake claim.

 

I understand it fits the theme but everyone is stuff that has helped Cory correct? Isn't it odd then that he doesn't believe they exist then?

 

 

Thought this line of reasoning was really dumb and very likely meant to distract or derail conversation. OBVIOUSLY the "doesn't believe we exist" thing was a tongue in cheek thing, since many people find it difficult to fit 8 hours of sleep a day into their schedule.

 

At the time Turin and Pray were getting a lot of attention, looked like a derail attempt to me

[Tommyrod]

[Cory Caboose]

Official Vote Count:

 

Darthe (1) - Halligeddon

Krakalakachkn (2)- manbat, TI

TI (4) - Krakalakachkn, Tomstress, Arsis, Despothera

Pralaya (1) - TheSlenderMan

Tomstress (1) - Yates

 

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to majority!

 

Deadline:

 

[Pralaya]

1. I can LOCK CLEAR someone for whatever I want. You don't like it? Tough cookie. But those are all legit towntells, and I can easily back them up with posts, and your scumbuddy Turin essentially spewed Arsis as town anyways

2. Let me state my point simpler. You basically said "You can't LOCK CLEAR TG for doing ______" and then said "TG didn't do ______" Those two points don't make sense side by side

3. I def disagree, and furthermore the only people I've seen you use meta are people you have EXTENSIVE experience with, but go ahead and humor me. How is he off his town meta, and give examples from other games, and how is he on his scum meta, again with examples. If you can't reasonably answer both of those, then you're essentially admitting to being scum

4. I was already planning on responding to that post, but spoiler alert is that your justification there is really poor and again, that's not really wagonomics. Wagonomics is more when you have a confirmed scum train and can analyze the countertrain, or have a town train which already has most the people on it confirmed or cleared one way or another. You're just throwing out buzzwords to try and strengthen a weak case

5. The point is he didn't try and overjustify his Vos vote, he didn't parrot what others said, he pretty much said "Despot and Slendy convinced me" which is totally understandable from a town POV, because me and Slendy both made convincing arguments that were both essentially half right (Vos wasn't town). And even while placing the vote, he was still discussing his other scum reads, especially Turin.

1. You can lock clear who you want. I can say they are wrong and provide reasons why, which I did. Those reasons were poor and the reason why it is extremely easy to coast under you

2. I said your reasons were poor and I said I find Arsis scum because of so and so. Where is the contradiction? Those were two separate points

3. I already explained why he is off meta in this post

4. You are narrowing the definition again. Wagonomics is also when a town is lynched (or a 3rd party in this case) and see the context of every vote. This is what is showing Arsis as scum

5. Yeah, and that is a very easy way for scum to jump on a train. Which is one of the ways to look at scumtells. Definitely not a townie PoV. He never talked about vos and then he sees that he had 4 votes and vos had 4 votes and people were talking against vos - perfect way to lose the focus.

[Pralaya]

6. The last bit is prob the worst part of your post- you just trying to talk about how right you were in other games (when you weren't even "right" at all, you were scum) which is basically obvious posturing because you don't in any way say how that is relevant to THIS game. Like how do you KNOW you're right this time, and that I'm not just awesome on the trail of scum? And why are you handling me like I'm just "silly wrong Despot" instead of Deep Wolf Despot?

 

7. Also why did you completely skip over my point about you cherrypicking Arsis' post about the Poisoner, when Yates was the one who revived that whole discussion?

6. Experience. I have seen in happening in many games - where you read me scum just because I disagree with your reads - and then it turns out that I was right after all. Same thing happened in Real Genius and a couple of games before that. It has been your meta to spew those who agree with you as town and those who don't as scum. And, it is not changing as far as I can see.

7. I didn't skip. I have been saying that Yates is also scum,.

[Pralaya]

Missed this before-

 

Pray quote for me where you called Yates scum. Better yet summarize your points on him first.

 

And no, I don't think there is a valid distinction there. In both cases they were talking about stuff that wasn't really that helpful to town. In Arsis' case tho I think he was legit tinfoiling, where imo Yates was obfuscating

Show me where I have NOT called Yates scum. Ever since my reads on D1, it has been my read.

[Yates]

Oh and also the scum circle is shrinking a bit more I'd say- VERY comfortable with the idea of a TI/Pray/Yates/SP scum team

Don't get too comfortable.

 

In both cases they were talking about stuff that wasn't really that helpful to town. In Arsis' case tho I think he was legit tinfoiling, where imo Yates was obfuscating

I feel like you aren't actually reading my posts for context. Either that or you are wrong about the value of setup spec. While I agree that you can't go into it whole hog, it's nice to have an idea of what we are up against. We do this in every. single. game.

 

And to instantly contradict myself- it would GREATLY surprise me if the Poisoner was on the scum team. Much more likely to be a Malicious Third Party imo

^^ This is kind of important for solving the game, imo. Not to mention the fact that Tommy's reaction to the poisoner was informing my read on him - therefore, it was important to ME. I just couldn't imagine someone looking at that night result and thinking "poisoner is probably Town or scum." Apparently my mafia experience is different from everyone else in the game so whatever. Still suspect, imo.

 

There's no "obfuscation" going on in any of my posts, Des. In fact, I feel like I actively curtailed obfuscation [specifically with Arsis] when I advised against spending too much time on NK analysis - which is different from and significantly less helpful than setup spec.

[Yates]

Show me where I have NOT called Yates scum. Ever since my reads on D1, it has been my read.

I'm here now. Can you tell me why I'm scum, Pral? At least Des put some effort into taking my posts out of context and trying to put a scum spin on them. I just see you claiming I'm scum but not actually doing anything about it.

[csarmi]

Yates - I'd normally assume poisoner to be town or scum (the only time I saw it was in a champions game and those were the possibilities).

[Yates]

In other words, you're both doing exactly what scum would want- chasing at shadows

"Chasing at shadows," huh? Sounds familiar.  

[Yates]

Yates - I'd normally assume poisoner to be town or scum (the only time I saw it was in a champions game and those were the possibilities).

It is literally defined as an anti-town role.  But, again, you guys do weird stuff like allowing doc self-protects and having "commuters" that can apparently have passengers.  So I won't spend any more time on it. 

[Darthe]

Ive gotta be honest, I am in a bit over my head in this one. I think Tommy is town but without good reads on Des and Yates and all of the butting heads right now getting good reads from the top down is rough.

[csarmi]

 

 

 

Are these guys just new to the game? That might give them some leeway.

Ithi is probably the best scumhunter on DM (certainly in the top three). Turin is quite good too. Turin did push for MIller lynch in my game too... with that said, they is giving me bad vibes so far with their push. Especially if we add Turin's initial answer to me.

 

 

How do you feel about TG's claim, Turin?

I don't feel anything about it. Flavour wise it seems to fit. I am leaning to believe the claim. Not sure how Miller fits in with Standard type mafia set up however.

 

Arsis, is a quest bar some sort of protein thing? Or is it where adventurers go to tell tales?

Like you said, Ithi is a better player than me. She voted him initially. I trust her instincts 150% and I was sort of lying low on my suspicions to see who would question my change of stance between my going hard after you and being kind of meh here.

 

I think that your questioning is a good sign btw. But you were more involved in that than anyone else.

This makes sense. This is where Turin mentions first that he was looking for reactions?

[csarmi]

 

 

I'm monstrman

Oh wow I didn't know. Tight man!

 

Early green read for you then

I don't think the cop should view TG. I clearly think we should Lynch him, as that's the only way were gonna get a real true alignment.

 

Why are you making out like I'm trying to direct the cop? That's just waaaaaaaay out there.

Ithi you're the one who said that people might all walk away from this and let TG off the hook, and that the Cop wouldn't view him. Your words, not mine.

 

I wasn't trying to fos you for trying to direct the cop, I was just trying to get where you were coming from cause that post made no sense.

Despo clearly misinterpreting Ithi in an unbelievable way (Ithi said the cop - now - wouldn't view (and be able to catch TG) and Des starts talking as if Ithi wanted to tell the cop yo view the miller). This was so incredibly weird back then and still is now. What was that about Des?

[csarmi]

On a reread it seems that Des is trying to get Ithi pissed off by that nonsense and keep Turin/Ithi discussing the miller.

[csarmi]

 

 

 

I would love if he would have quoted me. I can't go back to see what I said back then. I remember joking around with Salami and voting tsb.

 

I am fairly new here. I wanted to know if Miller was a popular scum claim here. To me it seems risky to fake. I was questioning his motivation for claiming to figure it out. Fwiw, I believe he is Miller.

Eh I dunno, still seemed like a way of ditching responsibility for giving a heartfelt read to me. Whether scum fakeclaim miller here or not, shouldn't really affect how you viewed THIS PARTICULAR Miller claim. Doesn't matter how common it happens in other games, since this could either be the outlier OR the norm.

What? I totally disagree. If dm policy lynches miller's a fake claim is out of the question. It's good to establish motivations.

Sounds legit. Still got Slendy's observation of Arsis page one focus and his post one scum claim. Hmm.

[csarmi]

 

 

 

 

For all those of you who think this is a policy lynch, or are painting it as thus to make me seem like I'm slightly tapped.

 

I do not believe the miller claim.

 

I think it's the perfect place for mafia to hide.

 

I do not think the cop should view him.

 

I think he should be lynched.

 

And that's pretty much it.

My objection to this is that I don't think you have a strong reason to either believe or not believe the claim right now unless you know there's another miller in the game. Everything else is just you guessing. I think TG's claim was believable at the very least and we can see how his threadplay progresses. I'm just gonna judge him as if he never claimed anything and suggest you do the same.

I can't. I just feel it. It feels wrong. I'm sorry I can't explain it in a massive wall of text, or break it down post by post and point out 'a-ha - this is where it is'

 

But I can't. That's just how I am.

Tommy. do you think that everyone should just believe that claim just because it was made? do you believe every claim that comes out of the blue? I don't like things that look either too neat or will give multiple days to coast. I would rather look into them right away. There will be loads of other people looking at other things.

 

Ithi just didn't believe the claim. TG nudging at us made me very convinced that he is mafia. That he is the one with all the support is interesting to me. Maybe you should just lynch us and then follow up on who said what and who pushed the hardest or for the worst reasoning.

Sounds horrible.