Forsaken Reborn?

[mrandall0314]

Shouldent each of the forsaken be reborn around the time rand was too. I am only just starting TOM so please dont spoil the last two books for me but shouldent there be other reborn forsaken also i feel that the forsaken should rember a matt and perrin like figure in their time.

[Sabio]

The forsaken weren't dead so they couldn't be reborn when Rand was.  Mat wasn't reborn as anything he is just from the Mantherean bloodline, I think someone said he might be related to the king of Mantherean.  The memories Mat has are something totally different because of his bargain by going through the door.  There was no one like Mat during the AOL, LTT was in charge and as Rand explained everyone assumed they were a general and many times seems like they did their own things.  There was no Mat with memories.   Probably the same with Perrin, what Perrin has was described as an old thing but doesn't mean there were people going around taking to wolves in the AOL.  Very few people remember anything about their former lives, Brigette normally wouldn't remember her other lives as she is living her current life, how she forced into the world meant she still had her memories.  The DO forcing a soul into a body isn't being reborn so the soul retains memories.  Not sure there is anything special about most of the forsaken, there is nothing to say Demandred is destined to be  forsaken again when the time comes for the next war of ages. 

[mrandall0314]

Thank youI assumed that most tarverin would be bound to the pattern and reborn.  Also is it ever know if there is a dragon reborn inbetween or multuple rand and tellomon.

[mrandall0314]

and sence each person is reborn to the same "thread to the pattern" and time is a circle dosent that mean each pattern is identical  and there is no change. unless latter in the book please dont spoil. rand cuts the pattern and forms it in to a line insted of repeting it self

[Sabio]

Just going by Brigette's POV she was once spun out and lived a normal life (think a farmer or something) and commented it was the most boring life ever.  So even the heroes when they are spun out don't necessarily do anything special everrytime.  A few things might be the same in every life, like in Brigette's case always being tied to what's his name.  Might be the same with LTT, he might get spun over the ages and live uneventful lives but he will always be spun out when the time comes for the DO prion to be opened and the last battle.  I am not sure if RJ ever said anything about the Forsaken and if their souls are always destined to go to the DO when the time comes.  If what Ishy said was true then Ishy is always tied to the DO.  Guess others might know if some souls are only spun out on need, after all look how long from LTT's death to being reborn it was.  Sounds like in that time people like Brigette had been spun out on multiple occasions. 

[Mr Ares]

and sence each person is reborn to the same "thread to the pattern" and time is a circle dosent that mean each pattern is identical  and there is no change. unless latter in the book please dont spoil. rand cuts the pattern and forms it in to a line insted of repeting it self

It's more that the big picture repeats - the little details have considerable room for variation.

[mb]

Birgitte's POV in Knife of Dreams; it tells that she and Gaidal played a part in the founding of the White Tower.  No other life was told about in that chapter.

 

about Forsaken; there were others besides the 13.  The books do not tell whether or not those were reborn; nor reveal their names of any life.

 

About Mat and Perrin; not sure if there was someone called "Fox" or "Wolf" in the Age of Legends.  or "Raven" (Tuon).

[Sabio]

I am confused what brought up brigette's pov in KOD?

[Orderofolde]

The forsaken weren't dead so they couldn't be reborn when Rand was.  Mat wasn't reborn as anything he is just from the Mantherean bloodline, I think someone said he might be related to the king of Mantherean.  The memories Mat has are something totally different because of his bargain by going through the door.  There was no one like Mat during the AOL, LTT was in charge and as Rand explained everyone assumed they were a general and many times seems like they did their own things.  There was no Mat with memories.   Probably the same with Perrin, what Perrin has was described as an old thing but doesn't mean there were people going around taking to wolves in the AOL.  Very few people remember anything about their former lives, Brigette normally wouldn't remember her other lives as she is living her current life, how she forced into the world meant she still had her memories.  The DO forcing a soul into a body isn't being reborn so the soul retains memories.  Not sure there is anything special about most of the forsaken, there is nothing to say Demandred is destined to be  forsaken again when the time comes for the next war of ages. 

Actually, there were other forsaken.  Those who had already been killed, and those not trapped within the bore.  It has been mentioned that the thirteen forsaken were among the strongest who happened to be attending the DO when LTT and his Hundred Companions (there were more than a hundred) attacked and caught and sealed them there.  The remainder following the attack were weak, some generals of little import or note, riffraff and that sort or else RJ would have named them and dropped more than a hint that there had been others.  I think that I saw the number 30 pop up somewhere.  And the Forsaken that were killed would be reborn in the time of the next Age of Legends.  It is only an age or two at the most since the AOL.  They could have had their souls reborn in the mean time with the ability to be good or bad or to channel or no ability that manifests itself.  Birgitte gives us such a good look at past lives souls have lived.  Many of her lives were simple ones, most had something for her to do with a bow though army or brigand or hero of legend, most of it was innocuous unless you count jaunts into the land of the snakes and foxes.

[Orderofolde]

 

and sence each person is reborn to the same "thread to the pattern" and time is a circle dosent that mean each pattern is identical  and there is no change. unless latter in the book please dont spoil. rand cuts the pattern and forms it in to a line insted of repeting it self

It's more that the big picture repeats - the little details have considerable room for variation.

 

Especially if you consider that the lands, people, customs, cities, and so forth change so much in even the Third Age.  The pattern allows a man to do small things if there is room for it.  Rand speaks about it with Moiraine, the discussion in which she says a man might become mayor or a successful farmer but not every man can become a king.

[mb]

I am confused what brought up brigette's pov in KOD?

post #5.

 

 

 

Rand speaks about it with Moiraine, the discussion in which she says a man might become mayor or a successful farmer but not every man can become a king.

 

I do not recall such a discussion.  the closest of her comments seem to be a flash back in Lord of Chaos.

 

How people see you first is what they hold hardest in their minds.  It is the way of the world.  You can step down from a throne, and even if you behave a farmer in a pigsty, some part in each of them will remember that you did descend from a throne.  But if they see only a young man first, a country man, they will resent him stepping up to his throne later, whatever his right, whatever his power.

Loial's speeches about taveren seem to be closer.  And his discussion with Rand in Eye of the World.

[Sabio]

Not sure when brigette was discussing leading a normal life, so not sure if it was even KOD. Could of been any book, not even sure who she was talking to at the time. 

[Magicana]

 

The forsaken weren't dead so they couldn't be reborn when Rand was.  Mat wasn't reborn as anything he is just from the Mantherean bloodline, I think someone said he might be related to the king of Mantherean.  The memories Mat has are something totally different because of his bargain by going through the door.  There was no one like Mat during the AOL, LTT was in charge and as Rand explained everyone assumed they were a general and many times seems like they did their own things.  There was no Mat with memories.   Probably the same with Perrin, what Perrin has was described as an old thing but doesn't mean there were people going around taking to wolves in the AOL.  Very few people remember anything about their former lives, Brigette normally wouldn't remember her other lives as she is living her current life, how she forced into the world meant she still had her memories.  The DO forcing a soul into a body isn't being reborn so the soul retains memories.  Not sure there is anything special about most of the forsaken, there is nothing to say Demandred is destined to be  forsaken again when the time comes for the next war of ages. 

Actually, there were other forsaken.  Those who had already been killed, and those not trapped within the bore.  It has been mentioned that the thirteen forsaken were among the strongest who happened to be attending the DO when LTT and his Hundred Companions (there were more than a hundred) attacked and caught and sealed them there.  The remainder following the attack were weak, some generals of little import or note, riffraff and that sort or else RJ would have named them and dropped more than a hint that there had been others.  I think that I saw the number 30 pop up somewhere.  And the Forsaken that were killed would be reborn in the time of the next Age of Legends.  It is only an age or two at the most since the AOL.  They could have had their souls reborn in the mean time with the ability to be good or bad or to channel or no ability that manifests itself.  Birgitte gives us such a good look at past lives souls have lived.  Many of her lives were simple ones, most had something for her to do with a bow though army or brigand or hero of legend, most of it was innocuous unless you count jaunts into the land of the snakes and foxes.

 

 

I don't recall the exact number (The number I'm about to use is a guess), but when Moghedien exits the Vacuole and is given into Moridin's care, when he uses the True Power she remarks that only 27 others had been given that privilege.

[Orderofolde]

I must have rounded up, but then again we must remember that likely not all forsaken were probably given access to the TP, and it was a perk easily taken away.  But then we probably begin splitting hairs between Forsaken and regular Dreadlords at that point, so 27 seems a good number to me.

[mb]

Actually she saw a saa in his eye; not see him use the True Power.  and she told 29 others besides him.

[mrandall0314]

Then if only 14? were sealed wouldent the otheres be reborn. I would buy that some of the males woud have died from whatever coulture they were in and that some of the reborn forsaken mey have been born and become black aja and cought by suprise but i cant see that weeding out 16,17 reborn forsaken. Unless when you are reborn you may not allwase to the stray to the Shado.

 

And WHY dosent Alies teach parren how to control the wolf please dont spoil the end of TOM, AML

[Sabio]

I only count the Forsakem in the WOT books as Forsaken, I know there were more dreadlords in the AOL but since the people in the book refer to these 13 as forsaken that's why I call them forsaken.  Everyone is reorn so makes since the other dreadlords who weren't sealed have been reborn.  But its not likely all these dreadlord are reborn each time to serve the shadow.  Their souls like the average person will imo be reborn and it will come down to free will on what they do with their life.  From the sounds of it, very few souls are reborn to serve a specific purpose like LTT, possibly Ishy if he is right about fighting LTT thousands of times, heroes of the horn when the time comes.  Everyone else from the sounds of it comes down to choices.

[mrandall0314]

remind me the difrence between the forsaken and dreadlords. so potenialy ninive could have been a dreadlord in a privios life? and which is ALO sorry still a biginer. Thanks.

[Magicana]

remind me the difrence between the forsaken and dreadlords. so potenialy ninive could have been a dreadlord in a privios life? and which is ALO sorry still a biginer. Thanks.

 

The difference between Forsaken and the Dreadlords in Rand's time is rank and experience. In the Age of Legends (AOL, answering your third question) they were simply the higher ranked and more skilled/powerful followers of the Dark One. I don't think they were known as the Forsaken then, or if that was a retroactive term applied after the AOL, or if all the followers of the Dark One were such named.

 

Nynaeve could have been a Dreadlord. 

[damandred]

 

 

remind me the difrence between the forsaken and dreadlords. so potenialy ninive could have been a dreadlord in a privios life? and which is ALO sorry still a biginer. Thanks.

The difference between Forsaken and the Dreadlords in Rand's time is rank and experience. In the Age of Legends (AOL, answering your third question) they were simply the higher ranked and more skilled/powerful followers of the Dark One. I don't think they were known as the Forsaken then, or if that was a retroactive term applied after the AOL, or if all the followers of the Dark One were such named.

 

Nynaeve could have been a Dreadlord.

All AS , male or female who turned to the shadow in the AoL were known as foresaken, but after wards the name became specifically to be reserved for the 13 leaders that got trapped with the DO, shadow turned Chanelers during the trollac war could of been known as foresaken, but chose to be called dreadlords so as not to offend the 13 that were bound.

[Sabio]

According to the BWB dreadlords were Aes Sedai who served the shadow in the AOL.  The best of them were given power and ability beyond that of others, making them almost demigods.  Among themselves they were know as "The Chosen to rule the world forever" or simply "the Chosen".  To all others they were known as the "Forsaken" .  None of those who equaled or approached in strength those now called Forsaken was still alive by the end of the last year of the war of power; yet not one of them is reported to of died by enemy action.  The Forsaken were simply the most powerful dreadlords, and the 13 that were trapped were the most powerful survivors of the winnowing process of the Forsaken killing each other off.   Since these 13 were trapped their names survived while the other names of the forsaken who died are forgotten. 

[Mr Ares]

According to the BWB dreadlords were Aes Sedai who served the shadow in the AOL.  The best of them were given power and ability beyond that of others, making them almost demigods.  Among themselves they were know as "The Chosen to rule the world forever" or simply "the Chosen".  To all others they were known as the "Forsaken" .  None of those who equaled or approached in strength those now called Forsaken was still alive by the end of the last year of the war of power; yet not one of them is reported to of died by enemy action.  The Forsaken were simply the most powerful dreadlords, and the 13 that were trapped were the most powerful survivors of the winnowing process of the Forsaken killing each other off.   Since these 13 were trapped their names survived while the other names of the forsaken who died are forgotten. 

There are some pieces of information in the BWB that are wrong. This is one of them. From RJ himself:

 

 

WEEK 12 QUESTION

In Winters Heart, you mention that back in the Age of Legends, there were several other Forsaken that the Dark One had killed because he suspected they would betray him. What's their story? Were those people ever as high ranking as the 13 survivors, or where they more like high-ranking Dreadlords then actual Forsaken?

ROBERT JORDAN

First off, Dreadlords was the name given to men and women who could channel and sided with the Shadow in the Trolloc Wars. Yes, the women were called Dreadlords, too. They might have liked to call themselves "the Chosen," like the Forsaken, but feared to. The real Forsaken might not have appreciated it when they returned, as prophecies of the Shadow foretold would happen. Some of the Dreadlords had authority and responsibility equivalent to that of the Forsaken in the War of the Shadow, however. They ran the Shadow's side of the Trolloc Wars, though without the inherent ability to command the Myrddraal that the Forsaken possess, meaning they had to negotiate with them. Overall command at the beginning was in another's hands.

Forsaken was the name given to Aes Sedai who went over to the Shadow in the War of the Shadow at the end of the Age of Legends, though of course, they called themselves the Chosen, and despite the tales of the "current" Age, there were many more than a few of them. Since they occupied all sorts of levels, you might say that many were equivalent to some of the lesser Dreadlords, but it would be incorrect to call them so. At the time, they were all Forsaken—or Chosen—from the greatest to the least.

Some of those Forsaken the Dark One killed were every bit as high-ranking as the thirteen who were remembered, and who you might say constituted a large part of the Dark One's General Staff at the time of the sealing. With the Forsaken, where treachery and backstabbing were an acceptable way of getting ahead, the turnover in the upper ranks was fairly high, though Ishamael, Demandred, Lanfear, Graendal, Semirhage, and later Sammael, were always at the top end of the pyramid. They were very skilled at personal survival, politically and physically.

In large part the thirteen were remembered because they were trapped at Shayol Ghul, and so their names became part of that story, though it turned out that details of them, stories of them, survived wide-spread knowledge of the tale of the actual sealing itself. Just that they had been sealed away. Other Forsaken were left behind, so to speak, free but in a world that was rapidly sliding down the tube. The men eventually went mad and died from the same taint that killed off the other male Aes Sedai. They had no access to the Dark One's protective filters. The women died, too, though from age or in battle or from natural disasters created by insane male Aes Sedai or from diseases that could no longer be controlled because civilization itself had been destroyed and access to those who were skilled in Healing was all but gone. And soon after their deaths, their names were forgotten, except for what might possibly be discovered in some ancient manuscript fragment that survived the Breaking. A bleak story of people who deserved no better, and not worth telling in any detail.

[Sabio]

So basically it comes down to:

Dreadlords were the aes sedai who fought for the shadow.

They were actually all "chosen" at one time but lost the title after the war of power since any dreadlords after that feared to use the title. 

With the honor of being "chosen" came added hazards of your fellow chosen killing you and the DO killing you on a whim.

Now people only consider the 13 sealed away as Forsaken because they got sealed away.

The other chosen names were lost through time.

 

That's sort of a big oops in the BWB then.  Because it makes it seems like only the most powerful in the AOL were "chosen" and the DO granted them special powers during the war for power and the rest of the aes sedai fighting for him were simply dreadlords.  So wonder if the part in the BWB about the 13 sealed away being the most powerful remaining during the war of power at the time as being true or not.  Or if ttheir power had nothing to do with it and they simply happened to be there at the time it was sealed.

[Mr Ares]

So basically it comes down to:

Dreadlords were the aes sedai who fought for the shadow.

They were actually all "chosen" at one time but lost the title after the war of power since any dreadlords after that feared to use the title. 

With the honor of being "chosen" came added hazards of your fellow chosen killing you and the DO killing you on a whim.

Now people only consider the 13 sealed away as Forsaken because they got sealed away.

The other chosen names were lost through time.

 

That's sort of a big oops in the BWB then.  Because it makes it seems like only the most powerful in the AOL were "chosen" and the DO granted them special powers during the war for power and the rest of the aes sedai fighting for him were simply dreadlords.  So wonder if the part in the BWB about the 13 sealed away being the most powerful remaining during the war of power at the time as being true or not.  Or if ttheir power had nothing to do with it and they simply happened to be there at the time it was sealed.

The BWB is meant to be written from the perspective of an in universe historian. While the information in there is generally accurate, there are some errors. Dreadlords were only during the Trolloc Wars. As for the "most powerful", power is a nebulous thing to measure. Most powerful in what sense? The thirteen who were sealed were top commanders - there might have been similarly highly placed people who were unable to attend, or who were killed during the Strike, but as far as we know the ones who were sealed were the top thirteen at the end, and no-one else was on the same level.

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

ROBERT JORDAN

First off, Dreadlords was the name given to men and women who could channel and sided with the Shadow in the Trolloc Wars. Yes, the women were called Dreadlords, too. They might have liked to call themselves "the Chosen," like the Forsaken, but feared to. The real Forsaken might not have appreciated it when they returned, as prophecies of the Shadow foretold would happen. Some of the Dreadlords had authority and responsibility equivalent to that of the Forsaken in the War of the Shadow, however. They ran the Shadow's side of the Trolloc Wars, though without the inherent ability to command the Myrddraal that the Forsaken possess, meaning they had to negotiate with them. Overall command at the beginning was in another's hands.

Forsaken was the name given to Aes Sedai who went over to the Shadow in the War of the Shadow at the end of the Age of Legends, though of course, they called themselves the Chosen, and despite the tales of the "current" Age, there were many more than a few of them. Since they occupied all sorts of levels, you might say that many were equivalent to some of the lesser Dreadlords, but it would be incorrect to call them so. At the time, they were all Forsaken—or Chosen—from the greatest to the least.

Some of those Forsaken the Dark One killed were every bit as high-ranking as the thirteen who were remembered, and who you might say constituted a large part of the Dark One's General Staff at the time of the sealing. With the Forsaken, where treachery and backstabbing were an acceptable way of getting ahead, the turnover in the upper ranks was fairly high, though Ishamael, Demandred, Lanfear, Graendal, Semirhage, and later Sammael, were always at the top end of the pyramid. They were very skilled at personal survival, politically and physically.

 

 

 

Dreadlords= Aes Sedai/male channelers who fought for the shadow post-Breaking. 

 

Chosen/Forsaken: Aes Sedai who fought for the shadow in the War of Power. 

 

As Mr. Ares also said, the 'most powerful' gauge is hard to judge. 

 

We can say that the 6 mentioned in the quote were among the very best, and Ishamael was the DO's commander-in-chief.

 

The others were not always in the upper echelons, but at the Strike they were the best of what was available at the time. 

 

However, there is reason to believe that all 13 were some of the most dangerous and competent, even if only the 6 mentioned were a step above the others. Only 19 people were given access to the True Power in the War of Power. All 13 of the Sealed Chosen were among them, which gives us a good indication that they were all quite important. I doubt any of them were low-end ring ins because there was nobody else left. 

 

The Shadow was dominant to the end, so the DO would not have been too concerned and I doubt he would have felt the need to give crappy Forsaken access when he had all but won. There is a possibility that some of the Forsaken were given access as an emergency at the Strike, but it is unlikely. From what we know of the Strike, the Shadow was caught unaware and the 13 were trapped before they could go out and fight. It's likely that they didn't actually feel the need to fight the strike team. Although Lews Therin succeeded, causalities were extremely high and most of the team was wiped out. I would say that the 13 and the DO weren't too bothered and left Lews Therin to others while they had the meeting, and that they were trapped before they could react.