Freemasons vs. Illuminati - LOOKING FOR ONE MORE PLAYER, QUICK GAME

[Lenlo]

Im of the opinion that you two might be mason buddies, so if TG flips scum your probably scum in my book if he flips town your probably town. I know you dont want masons to reveal though, so im not going to press you on that front.

[Yates]

I know you dont want masons to reveal though, so im not going to press you on that front.

Even if we were I couldn't claim it now.

 

But I can't be masons with TG, AJ, AND Arsis.

[Arsis]

I'm not a mason.

[Lenlo]

 

I know you dont want masons to reveal though, so im not going to press you on that front.

Even if we were I couldn't claim it now.

 

But I can't be masons with TG, AJ, AND Arsis.

 

I never said you were masons with Aj and Arsis though...

[Arsis]

[unvote] [v]Yates[/v]

 

Let's do this len.

[Clovdyx]

 

 

I dont think my dorm room could hold a mob and I dont think I could clear it with my roomie.

 

For the state of the game, I wouldnt mind lynching Arsis just to get him to shut up. Like you people yell at me for being useless and not playing a pro-town game blah blah blah and yet what has he done? Seriously, tell me what hes done aside from being around and being a distraction? Reminds me abit of late era EP, whom you wouldnt know but im sure others remember.

 

Other than that I think AJ is town, your status is dependent on TG's, Dice/GF/BFG need to post more, like how Key has started to argue actual points instead of stupid semantics with me, Des is usually around more and this is odd for him, Clov is leaning town, Hally has been scare lately and I could go either way on TG.

 

Again - maybe I'm just bad at reading Lenlo but I don't think posts like this come from scum.

 

 

Are you around, AJ?  I want to do a field experiment of sorts.

 

Upon reread, I'm reading Len as town, as I am with AJ and Key.  Not sure about Des.  I'd like to trust him, but mmmmmm. No idea whatsoever on Dice/GF.  

 

Where is this coming from?  Walk me through some of this.

 

 

 

your [Yates] status is dependent on TG's

In what way? What does this mean? I see that I tied myself to TG but what would a TG scum flip suggest about me and what would a TG Town flip suggest about me? I can see how either case could be spun to make me look scummy.

 

 

Im of the opinion that you two might be mason buddies, so if TG flips scum your probably scum in my book if he flips town your probably town. I know you dont want masons to reveal though, so im not going to press you on that front.

 

I think there are certain inferences you can make about one of their alignment's from the others flip, but I don't see it quite this way.  THIS is the kind of post I would expect to be made from Town!Lenlo, though.

 

[unvote] [v]Yates[/v]

Let's do this len.

 

And then there's this.  Are you still claiming town at this point?  Because I can't fathom how your actions this game can be interpreted as pro-town.  More often that not, that means you're not.

[Clovdyx]

AJ - Actually, I forgot about Lenlo in Tron.  I'll need to check his more recent games.  I was going to point out that his post seems closer to him in Buffy (more effort to get his thoughts in the thread, addressing others more than himself, less filler) than the town games I've played with him.  Most recent was kind of a  metabreaker though.  Let me do some research.

[Lenlo]

AJ - Actually, I forgot about Lenlo in Tron.  I'll need to check his more recent games.  I was going to point out that his post seems closer to him in Buffy (more effort to get his thoughts in the thread, addressing others more than himself, less filler) than the town games I've played with him.  Most recent was kind of a  metabreaker though.  Let me do some research.

What game are you talking about?

[Clovdyx]

 

AJ - Actually, I forgot about Lenlo in Tron.  I'll need to check his more recent games.  I was going to point out that his post seems closer to him in Buffy (more effort to get his thoughts in the thread, addressing others more than himself, less filler) than the town games I've played with him.  Most recent was kind of a  metabreaker though.  Let me do some research.

What game are you talking about?

 

 

You in Tron.  

[Lenlo]

I dont remember Tron that well, sorry.

[Clovdyx]

I dont remember Tron that well, sorry.

 

You were more focused early on that I typically associate with your town game.  I thought you played pretty well.  Normally I expect you to be very spammy while contributing little of substance.  Hard to follow your reads and your direction for the lynch.  Here, I've been pretty in tune with what you've been saying, which makes me hesitate.

[Clovdyx]

 

I dont think my dorm room could hold a mob and I dont think I could clear it with my roomie.

 

For the state of the game, I wouldnt mind lynching Arsis just to get him to shut up. Like you people yell at me for being useless and not playing a pro-town game blah blah blah and yet what has he done? Seriously, tell me what hes done aside from being around and being a distraction? Reminds me abit of late era EP, whom you wouldnt know but im sure others remember.

 

Other than that I think AJ is town, your status is dependent on TG's, Dice/GF/BFG need to post more, like how Key has started to argue actual points instead of stupid semantics with me, Des is usually around more and this is odd for him, Clov is leaning town, Hally has been scare lately and I could go either way on TG.

 

Again - maybe I'm just bad at reading Lenlo but I don't think posts like this come from scum.

 

 

AJ - Actually, I forgot about Lenlo in Tron.  I'll need to check his more recent games.  I was going to point out that his post seems closer to him in Buffy (more effort to get his thoughts in the thread, addressing others more than himself, less filler) than the town games I've played with him.  Most recent was kind of a  metabreaker though.  Let me do some research.

 

All right.  The two games I found for that I wasn't around for were Woodstock and Doctor Who.  Nothing really of any sort of value in Woodstock - probably the weakest ISO I've ever seen.  That being said, he had 17 posts that game and appears to have been MIA most of the game.

 

Doctor Who, he still had the typical fluff entrance but he did get involved in the game pretty quickly.    He made these two posts what looks to be fairly quickly into the game:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lol I guess Im always the guy not up for lynching third party. Like Arsis said he's not doing anything to hurt town if he's a survivor. If you believe he's mafia fake claiming thats a different story, but if he's third party then theres no point in doing it.

 

@Lenlo - You said that at least we're not harming town. But there will always be a higher chance to lynch town. By your logic, a no lynch every day would be beneficial. But town has to take the risk to get mafia every day because thats our only chance

Its a matter of circumstances. If we have no outted, self proclaimed non-towns, then yes we have to risk it for the biscuit to win the game and lynch someone, but right here right now we have a self proclaimed non-town player and you want them to live just to try and lynch scum on D1, probably the hardest day to find said scum? If we lynch him then we dont lose town and when day comes we have the chance that the cop caught scum, the doc blocked the kill or the scum lowered the pool of potentials to lynch from. 

 

As for Arsis not doing anything to hurt town, sure for now. Its D1 and hes a survivor of course hes going to side with town, but whos to say later on at LyLo he wont side with mafia for the easy win? 

 

 

 

Rand your entire thought process/plan hinges on us hitting scum today. It HINGES on it. Infact it hinges on us never getting near LyLo, which is realisticly unlikely. 

 

 

 

 

Think about the argument you're using right now.  This same argument can be used to vote no lynch on d1.  The only difference is the potential of Arsis being a threat in end game, but until we get there, our top priority should be only mafia and dangerous third party.  Any lynch outside this potentially wastes a day.  And think about the people dying.  If Arsis dies and mafia shoots the most townie town, then we're still stuck in the same position.  We're still probably going to have a mislynch, and a d1 where people can consolidate on third party won't provide that much information.  However, now, the mislynch is on d2 instead of d1, and we enter d3 with four dead non-mafia, and all the mafia alive.  In a 13 person game, we have 9 people left, about 3 of which are mafia.  We've essentially changed the ratio from somewhere around 1/4 to 1/3.

 

As a contrast, if we try lynching mafia right now, lets say we get one mafia and one town in the next 2 days.  We now have 9 people left, but only 2 mafia, slightly decreasing the percent of mafia among the total population.

 

In the first option, we make ourselves feel better by lynching anti-town, but in reality the ratio of town to mafia is falling, and we are starting on a path to potentially losing the game.

 

In the second option, we'll keep the outed third party alive sure, but we'll be working our ways towards our goal, not away from it.

 

 

The bold is so much bigger a threat/reason than your making it out to be, so no this is NOTHING like a no lynch. Infact we are gaining information purely by arguing about this. Scum would love for survivor to stay around because it is quite likely that if they play their cards right, they have another person on their side should it come to LyLo because the Survivor wants an easy win.

 

Besides looking at your own post, second bold, your not even confident enough in your plan to completely back it. Your using noncommittal/passive language in your very own post about what is the best play, meaning your not even 100% that your idea is the best.

 

Third bold. Most towny town by their estimation, maybe. It should be interesting to see who they pick. Afterall if were getting as little information as your saying we will then the number of people who are shown to be town will be much smaller for each person, as we wouldnt have had enough to get good reads. It would be interesting and telling to see who they pick. Were getting much more information out of this then your are leading people to believe and your hard defending Arsis on a crappy claim as if he was LOCK TOWN. That doesnt look good to me.

 

Fourth bold, your not even that confident in our ability to get sucm D1. You say were not going to get much info off of a consolidation onto a third party but this current situation is nothing like a consolidation. We have talks, we have debates, we have votes and unvotes AS IF WE WERE DEBATING IF SOMEONE WE WERE LYNCHING WAS SCUM OR NOT. We are getting plenty of information from this.

 

Seriously your entire reasoning hinges on us actually getting a mafia lynch today, which is incredibly unlikely.

 

Tell me Rand if we arnt lynching Arsis, who would you rather us lynch? Tell me who your top scum and town reads are in this game right now. Oh and for funsies DO IT IN YOUR NEXT POST BECAUSE I AM MONITORING YOUR ONLINE TIMES AND WHAT THREADS YOU ARE VIEWING. ANYTHING OTHER THAN A LIST WILL BE CONSIDERED A SCUM CLAIM. :P

 

 

 

 

 

Not quite the same thing as the post you showed, but it does show him moving towards a "no harm done" lynch by taking out the survivor, which seems comparable to the first paragraph in that he's pushing somebody (Arsis, who coincidentally, was the survivor) that really won't hurt too much regardless of alignment because he's basically trolling.  Through a couple pages on his ISO, I'm not seeing much like the reads, but I don't know...I still think it's possible to come from scum.  I've got him as probable town so far this game, but I can't meta clear him.

 

If you were looking at it differently AJ, let me know what you think is strongly towntelling about it. 

[Andrej]

I admit with Lenlo it's mostly a gut feeling.

 

I failed to recognize him as scum in the Woodstock game, although he didn't have a ton of content to sift through and I was focusing elsewhere, but I have successfully cleared him in other games. The Disney game that Lily ran not too long ago I had him pegged pretty solidly as Town D1 and was right. He was pretty active that game and got down to ~business fairly quick. In the Red Wedding game Darthe ran I was more or less able to POE him as town because of his postings although he was scarce that game and didn't have a ton of thread presence. I think part of that may have been me Copping scum two Nights in a row, so the POE wasn't that hard admittedly.

 

I can follow your thoughts irt him in the Dr. Who game but I think the important key for that meta read was his intent behind pushing the Arsis lynch. Call it hindsight bias but knowing he was scum now, reading those posts I think it's fairly clear imo.

[Arsis]

What does poe mean?

[Darthe]

OFFICIAL VOTE COUNT 3:

Arsis (4/7): Len, Clov, BFG, AJ

Len (2/7):: Key, TG

TG (1/7): Des

Des (1/7): Yates

Yates (1/7): Arsis

 

 

Not voting (3/12):

Dice, Hally, GF

 

Deadline is in 23 hours. 

[Yates]

What does poe mean?

Process of elimination.

[Yates]

Comes in with the infamous "Vote: Arsis for the luls" post 80.

 

~11 hours and 31 posts later he acknowledges the Cult of Lenlo play in post 111.

 

Post 117, a couple of hours later, reads as Lenlo legitimately confused about TG and AJ's argument about "for the lulz" being a "reason for a vote." Not really alignment indicative as it could equally be a Townie saying "wtf?" or scum caught for the wrong reasons.

 

Here's what bothers me, though, he never really counter attacked TG. You know how Csarmi is over the top OMGUSy? I expect at least a LITTLE of that if you feel like someone is building a BS case on you. I know *I* do it if someone is using garbage logic to try to FRAME me [because I assume it's premeditated when the logic is so bad it can't be from a Town POV]. Does anyone with more experience with Lenlo feel like Town Lenlo would push back here? Because right now I'm reading this and thinking *I* would push back - unless I was scum trying to get a feel for who everyone was Town telling so I didn't rustle the wrong Townie.

 

I'm going to call this a ping. It doesn't feel right.

 

Post 162 stands out in ISO. This is the post where Lenlo asks what RVS is - I'm still not sure the point of that if it was supposed to be a joke. Though he claims it wasn't a joke in post 224. I just have a hard time believing he doesn't know what RVS is. I'm like 99% convinced he would have seen it in ANY of the games I was in with him, anyway. He also displays a little whymefryme by playing up his Cult of Lenlo meme.

 

 

Arsis, why did you vote Lenlo, and why did you immediately switch to AJ?

Lenlo is Lenlo. I vote him day 1 every game. It's a thing now.

 

Everyone else should join the Lynch Lenlo group, btw. We recently experienced a 200% increase in members, making us the fastest growing group on DM!

 

Question: What does RVS mean?

 

 

 

Post 246 is his Towniest sounding post of the game.

Only for you AJ, will I start trying before D2.

 

@Len - there's a 66 2/3% chance you are scum. Prove me/Arsis wrong. Tell me your thoughts on AJ and Clov. I actually don't know Clov at all so that might help.

I think AJ and Clov are both town. AJ respond reasonably to TGs arguments, he didnt try and deflect anything, he took TGs arguments head on and addressed/countered each and every one of them. Thats a towny way to argue back if ive ever seen one.

 

Clov has been asking good questions and getting people to think or clear up/clarify their arguments and this also looks good to me. Scum would prefer it if peoples arguments weren't clearly defines, they would want them to be easier to abuse and they are that way when they are unclear. I also like his posts about Arsis, they ring true to me. Arsis hasnt really been doing anything... meaningful imo. Hes been stalling/distracting/not really playing. and thats scummy imo, though im also a person who doesnt care at all about meta I dont keep track of it.

 

So Clov & AJ = Towny

Arsis = Leaning scum/not-town.

 

I say not town because im not sure if this is how he is as scum but it does remind me abit of how he was as a survivor, which was third party.

 

 

I agree with his read and thoughts on AJ and Clov and see them coming from a Town POV. I can also follow his reasoning on Arsis even if I'm not sure I agree with it.

 

Then post 250 is his "derp clear" post. I don't know. It's too wifomy. I've definately done something like this as both alignments.

 

Other than that, he's been vote parked on Arsis. That's either scum or completely disinterested Town. It doesn't look like we'll get an Arsis case out of Lenlo. I guess the best we'll get out of him is that he agrees with Clov wrt Arsis in the "Towniest Post" mentioned in the spoiler above. Otherwise, I don't see him generating reads of his own.

[Yates]

^^^ I should have titled that "Lenlo ISO" ^^^

[Yates]

Taking a break. Even with Lenlo's relatively short ISO that took a half hour. I'll probably do BFG next. After that, I suspect an Arsis ISO is going to be painful and laborious but needed.

[keyholder21]

Arsis - Needed the vote IMO as a consequence to gameplay. Also needed someone reasonable to chat with. Now he is openly sheeping to the point where I'm thinking, that is too obv as scum so he must be town.

AJ - So according to AJ I'm scum because I refuse to back off. But then, when I update my reads as the thread is changing, I'm scum because I backed off and now I'm just going with consensus. WHA? And then AJ goes and quotes me referring to two completely different things about Lenlo (1 about the ongoing jokes being par for the course, the other about his play in this game) and claims I'm flipflopping my reads on Lenlo? And I'm freakin' boggled that nobody (looking at Des here) could be bothered to remember enough of the thread to remember they were completely different comments on completely different things. Ugh.

What's funny is based off AJ's analysis he looks town-ish. But based of his ridiculous tunneling, refusal to update reads as the game progresses, terribad misrep about my comments on Lenlo, and narrative type game play where I'm scum if I do and I'm scum if I don't, he looks scum. I'm flip-flopping on him as lock-town and #confscum. Will decide tomorrow.

Bold – Looks that way to me too, for the most part, but a little piece of me says Arsis would be someone to try that to see if he could get away with it. I want to go back and look at his posts, because from what I remember, he has contributed like nil to the game.

 

Still think you and AJ are being hard-headed about each other. Similar things make you both look like obvious town to me. Going against the grain passionately, being at the center of gameplay, providing evidence to make people see things your (collective) way, trying to actually solve the game.

 

Okay - NOW I have something to work with and can see what you are saying a little better.

I think this is where my problem begins: The game started after 11pm EST on a weeknight. Half the game was probably asleep and those that posted just said hi. Then, the next day, early afternoon you posted asking about what TG&/or AJ thought about the inactives. It is really early into the game, imo, and it looks…off.

By early afternoon how many posts did AJ, TG, and I have already? I guess I hadn't really thought about how relatively early in the game it was because to me it felt like the game had started.

 

Then, after Clov and I posted, you asked if we would have posted then if you hadn’t said anything. Considering it was super early into the game and neither of us had posted any thoughts yet, this question seems odd to me.

So given the above, and the state of the game [pretty much outlined in that TG defense post] do you see why I'd be calling on people for activity? The fact that I asked you guys if you would have posted anyway is actually a point in my favor, I would think, supporting my claim that I was really just trying to get other people to weigh in on the conversation. As you know from however many years of playing, sometimes just seeing your name mentioned in a thread is enough to get someone skimming to take the next step and post sooner rather than later.

 

I legitimately couldn't figure out how my play was confusing to you or somehow scummy or out of character. You have a point about it being relatively early game wise. I hadn't thought of that until you just brought it up. I hope you can understand why - in the moment - I would have felt like we were already in the game. And it's not like AJ or TG were like "Whoa, Yates! Slow your roll! It's way early!" I think we were ALL just playing at that point.

 

First paragraph – it was like 2 pages after the game had started. Didn’t seem like much imo, which is why I found it weird.

 

Second paragraph – I took that question to be looking at us both suspiciously because we posted when we did, which didn’t look like support of the call for ‘inactives’.

 

BUT like I said, I feel much better about you since.

 

I'm in the wrong thread.

I lol’d *g*.

 

Or is it a town thing to vote for another town because he's coasting? Town vote other town all the time, right?

Could you please explain this? It could be because I am super exhausted and don’t feel well, but I’m not following. Are you being sarcastic, or serious?

 

 

Keeping it gutter.

You are playing like you are from Jersey. JERSEY!

 

Represent better.

 

I lol’d again *g*.

 

 

 

Arsis I just want dead at this point. Legit don't even care what alignment - he needs to go.

Normal game? PL wouldn't hurt my feelings. This game? I don't see how we are going to win. I plugged this setup into a mafia balance simulator.It's not pretty for Town.

 

We need people to Town tell like crazy and start a Town block within the next ~12-20 hours to have a chance.

 

I agree that policy lynching is bad in this situation.

There’s a mafia balance simulator? Can I have a link?

 

Lenlo and des would make good teammates for him.

Why do you think this?

 

 

I dont think my dorm room could hold a mob and I dont think I could clear it with my roomie.

 

For the state of the game, I wouldnt mind lynching Arsis just to get him to shut up. Like you people yell at me for being useless and not playing a pro-town game blah blah blah and yet what has he done? Seriously, tell me what hes done aside from being around and being a distraction? Reminds me abit of late era EP, whom you wouldnt know but im sure others remember.

 

Other than that I think AJ is town, your status is dependent on TG's, Dice/GF/BFG need to post more, like how Key has started to argue actual points instead of stupid semantics with me, Des is usually around more and this is odd for him, Clov is leaning town, Hally has been scare lately and I could go either way on TG.

Again - maybe I'm just bad at reading Lenlo but I don't think posts like this come from scum.

 

I don’t see where it comes from town?

Joke. Agreeing with the PL on Arsis. Ties Yates and TG together, says the lurkers need to post more. ‘likes’ something I’m doing that gets me off of him, casts suspicion –but not a lot and gives no read – on des, gives a read on Clov, says Hally has been scarce – which is not a read-, and is waffling on TG.

 

I feel like it’s mostly consensus, and possibly a bit of sheeping you, AJ (re: PL on Arsis and Yates suspicion due to TG).

 

Upon reread, I'm reading Len as town, as I am with AJ and Key. Not sure about Des. I'd like to trust him, but mmmmmm. No idea whatsoever on Dice/GF.

I see Clov already said this, but why do you feel any of these things?

[keyholder21]

Taking a break. Even with Lenlo's relatively short ISO that took a half hour. I'll probably do BFG next. After that, I suspect an Arsis ISO is going to be painful and laborious but needed.

Thanks for the Lenlo ISO, I had planned to try and get to that. I'm about to do an Arsis one.

[Yates]

Mafia Balance Simulator Link

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zb7oxzsz177h4f7/Mafia_Balance_Tester.jar

[Lenlo]

Comes in with the infamous "Vote: Arsis for the luls" post 80.

 

~11 hours and 31 posts later he acknowledges the Cult of Lenlo play in post 111.

 

Post 117, a couple of hours later, reads as Lenlo legitimately confused about TG and AJ's argument about "for the lulz" being a "reason for a vote." Not really alignment indicative as it could equally be a Townie saying "wtf?" or scum caught for the wrong reasons.

 

Here's what bothers me, though, he never really counter attacked TG. You know how Csarmi is over the top OMGUSy? I expect at least a LITTLE of that if you feel like someone is building a BS case on you. I know *I* do it if someone is using garbage logic to try to FRAME me [because I assume it's premeditated when the logic is so bad it can't be from a Town POV]. Does anyone with more experience with Lenlo feel like Town Lenlo would push back here? Because right now I'm reading this and thinking *I* would push back - unless I was scum trying to get a feel for who everyone was Town telling so I didn't rustle the wrong Townie.

 

I'm going to call this a ping. It doesn't feel right.

 

Post 162 stands out in ISO. This is the post where Lenlo asks what RVS is - I'm still not sure the point of that if it was supposed to be a joke. Though he claims it wasn't a joke in post 224. I just have a hard time believing he doesn't know what RVS is. I'm like 99% convinced he would have seen it in ANY of the games I was in with him, anyway. He also displays a little whymefryme by playing up his Cult of Lenlo meme.

 

I agree with his read and thoughts on AJ and Clov and see them coming from a Town POV. I can also follow his reasoning on Arsis even if I'm not sure I agree with it.

 

Then post 250 is his "derp clear" post. I don't know. It's too wifomy. I've definately done something like this as both alignments.

 

Other than that, he's been vote parked on Arsis. That's either scum or completely disinterested Town. It doesn't look like we'll get an Arsis case out of Lenlo. I guess the best we'll get out of him is that he agrees with Clov wrt Arsis in the "Towniest Post" mentioned in the spoiler above. Otherwise, I don't see him generating reads of his own.

 

So I legit had no idea what RVS stood for. I have never seen it before and never had it used around me before. I always called it joke voting. 

 

For Arsis what do you want me to case? To case someone they have to have done something in the game, but hes done jack all.

[Yates]

For Arsis what do you want me to case? To case someone they have to have done something in the game, but hes done jack all.

Maybe give some examples of Arsis doing "jack all." Like, he needed to respond to X or should have been more involved with Y. I'd like to see this Arsis case, too. That plus Key's Arsis ISO would be NY Times Best Seller reading material for this game. We are running out of time and I have NO idea who I want to lynch. My default will probably be you. Or maybe GF. Still deciding.

[Arsis]

@key. Aj said he thought I was town but voted for me anyway. Just to get rid of me because I wasn't playing the way he wanted me to play.

 

I was asking if that was a town thing to do? Do town vote other town in a small game?

 

To me I see you and Yates and aj being puzzled and trying to figure out wtf I'm doing and that's a strong town tell. I see aj getting annoyed and aggressive and that's a scum tell.