Laughter and Tears????

[DocBean]

Is the thing that Cadsuane needs to teach Rand, and maybe all of the Ashamen, teaching them Laughter and Tears? Min said she will need to teach him something, she is trying to do that, so I guess it would make since.

 

What will teach him laughter and tears? I'm thinking the birth of his children might do the trick - especially the tears part if something were to happen to either of them.

 

So my question is two fold:

 

1. What is it that Min foresaw that Cadsuane will teach Rand, have we seen any hints as to what it might be?

 

and 2. What will make Rand more human and laughing and crying?

 

I tend to think that Moraine's rescue will help Rand stop making that list of dead women in his head. Which would be a good thing.

[Safia al-Maaz]

I don't think Min knows specifically what Cadsuane is going to teach Rand and the Asha'man, but Cadsuane and Sorilea seem to think they both are going to teach him laughter and tears.

 

Any number of things could cause Rand to remember laughter and tears, but I'm betting on the birth of his children. Every father cries when their children are born. ;)

[SBoydW]

I;m of the line of thinkning that Tam is going to have something to do with this, along with the birth of his children.

[Safia al-Maaz]

Hehe, I wonder what he'll do when he finds his son got a woman, a queen no less, pregnant without being married to her :shock: ;)

[Hero of Satsuma]

I think that a reunion with Moiraine may have something to do with it as well. She is always the first name on the list of women that he recites to himself.

[chemteach1977]

I second that idea about Moirraine. Her return will remove the first and worst name off of Rand's list. He believes Morraine died because he was not hard enough. Hopefully she can help him see reason.

 

Also, i am not sold on laughter and tears as an answer to Min's vision. A number of AM, especially those bonded to AS seem perfectly capable of laughter and tears. My theory would involve something about taint madness. Cads has seen more men who channeled tainted Saidin than anyone.

[Master of the Blades]

Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm, wearer of a crown of swords, spinner-out of fate. Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time, may learn the truth too late." - From a fragmentary translation of The Prophecies of the Dragon, attributed to Lord Mangore Kiramin, Sword-bard of Aramaelle and Warder to Caraighan Maconar, into what was then called the vulgar tongue (circa 300 AB).

 

"There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he one with the land. Soul of fire, heart of stone, in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield. He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow. Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love." - From a much-disputed translation of The Prophecies of the Dragon by the poet Kyera Termendal, of Shiota, believed to have been published between FY 700 and FY 800.

 

The above Prophecies of the Dragon may help interpret Min's viewing of Cadsuane's Lesso for the DR and the Ashaman.

 

Rand believes much that he is the key to Tarmon Gaidon, no one else. Very much the way LTT was reasoning when he led the hundred Companions to Shayol Ghul.

Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time, may learn the truth too late."

 

The Ashaman are cocky as well sure of themselves and believing they can overcome anything. they are charging ahead toward a cliff unknowingly.

 

Cadsuane is to teach them humility which they will find most painful. She has already begun having the Ashaman bonded to her AS cronies. As well she keeps warning Rand of being overly sure of himself.

 

The Second prophecy is almost word for word what Cadsuane and Sorilea agreed to do to help Rand.(TPOD New Alliances) Cadsuane makes refrences to a reed and an oak insinuating Rand is too hard a clear reference to the heart of stone in prophecy. I cant recall Cadsuane saying anything about laughter in her teachings. I cant recall saying anyhting in jest. She has insisted from the outset that Rand come to her for help rather than her fobbing her ideas on him. Given the context of the last sentence it is essential to the successful prosecution of the war against the Shadow that Rand have the full range of emotions.

[Myyrth]

I would be very dissapointed if RJ ends up teaching the Asha'man humility by getting them all bonded to Aes Sedai.... I would bo sooo angry..... :evil:

 

Those quotes from diffrent prophecies are very interesting, It will be interesting seeing the final outcome.

[SBoydW]

I would be a wee bit miffed if that happened to the Ashaman... I can't stand 95% of the AS.

[Bailey]

I was reading TSR a few nights ago and I think I had a breakthrough on this.

 

Its been a while since I read KOD, but I believe right after they capture Semmi she starts talking about Rand being crazy and past personalities reemerging and reintegrating because Lanfear said he knew things only LTT could know or something like that. We've already seen this beginning to happen with Rand (not LTT's voice, either). I can find a couple quotes in TSR or TFOH if you want.

 

In WH ( I think, it might be a different book) Rand says that there are names on his list that he hadn't added that had just kind of ended up on it. It also mentions that Ilyena was one of those names. So, theoretically at least, a good deal of Rand's problems with women dying come from having once killed his own wife.

 

So if Rand and LTT reintegrate, combine, whatever, then Rand should be able to mourn properly for the women he feels he killed (the list). This also eliminates some if not all of Rand's insanity problems and gives him some bad-a#* weaves to try out on the Forsaken (from the LTT part of him).

 

I also have a feeling that Moiraine may help him with this after she returns and all, which would fulfill Min's viewing of Rand not being able to win the Last Battle without her.

[FelixA9]

I don't think Min knows specifically what Cadsuane is going to teach Rand and the Asha'man' date=' but Cadsuane and Sorilea seem to think they both are going to teach him laughter and tears.

 

Any number of things could cause Rand to remember laughter and tears, but I'm betting on the birth of his children. Every father cries when their children are born. ;)[/quote']

 

Except that Min said specifically teach Rand and the Ashamen and that they wouldn't like it all.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Except that Min said specifically teach Rand and the Ashamen and that they wouldn't like it all.

 

Which leads me to think its not "laughter and tears" at all. Some of the Asha'man (Flinn comes to mind) are fairly stable in that sense, and I imagine some of the married ones still at the Black Tower are emotionally ok. I tend to think its something about the taint, and some lingering effect ... Cadsuane is the only one who still seems a little skeptical about the taint being cleansed, and something like that would affect all the Asha'man, not just Rand. And none of them would like it. Min did say:

 

"It's Cadsuane. She is going to teach you something, you and the Asha'man. All the Asha'man, I mean. It's something you have to learn, but I don't know what it is, except that none of you will like learning it from her. You aren't going to like it at all."

(ACoS, chapter 41)

 

The whole "laughter and tears" bit just doesn't seem to apply. Whether its some leftover from the taint, or something else entirely, it is something that applies to all the Asha'man.

[FelixA9]

So if Rand and LTT reintegrate' date=' combine, whatever, then Rand should be able to mourn properly for the women he feels he killed (the list). This also eliminates some if not all of Rand's insanity problems and gives him some bad-a#* weaves to try out on the Forsaken (from the LTT part of him).[/quote']

 

I hope it goes something like that. So that Rand will realize that he doesn't have to fight it. He's Rand and he's LTT. It's the same person it's just that he (Rand) has forgotten so much. He really needs to have a chat with Birgette so she can explain the whole thing to him :D Anyway when the veil is finally lifted so to speak and he's actually a sane LTT with all of his experience look out. As we'll recall even Ishy started to panic in the presence of a sane LTT and only saved his own butt by reminding LTT that he killed his wife himself wherein he was overcome with grief and forgot all about destroying Ishy.

[FelixA9]

Except that Min said specifically teach Rand and the Ashamen and that they wouldn't like it all.

 

Which leads me to think its not "laughter and tears" at all. Some of the Asha'man (Flinn comes to mind) are fairly stable in that sense' date=' and I imagine some of the married ones still at the Black Tower are emotionally ok. I tend to think its something about the taint, and some lingering effect ... Cadsuane is the only one who still seems a little skeptical about the taint being cleansed, and something like that would affect [i']all[/i] the Asha'man, not just Rand. And none of them would like it. Min did say:

 

"It's Cadsuane. She is going to teach you something, you and the Asha'man. All the Asha'man, I mean. It's something you have to learn, but I don't know what it is, except that none of you will like learning it from her. You aren't going to like it at all."

(ACoS, chapter 41)

 

The whole "laughter and tears" bit just doesn't seem to apply. Whether its some leftover from the taint, or something else entirely, it is something that applies to all the Asha'man.

 

I think the taint is gone. I think what she teaches them is something along the lines of "doesn't matter how big you think your britches are you still need to have respect for others". That and maybe a little "there are some things you can not do with the power without a woman helping"

[RobertAlexWillis]

I think what she teaches them is something along the lines of "doesn't matter how big you think your britches are you still need to have respect for others". That and maybe a little "there are some things you can not do with the power without a woman helping"

 

The thing is, while Rand could use a little of that, not all the Asha'man have that problem. The bonded ones are respectful to their Sisters, and (again, Damer Flinn comes to mind here) some seem to be quite well balanced.

 

In my opinion, it has to be something related to saidin, and the way doubts keep cropping up in Cadsuane's mind about the taint ... I just don't know. Maybe its not the taint itself still there, but some other effect that it causes ... I'm guessing here, but the emotional manners lessons just don't seem to apply to all the Asha'man. Most? Probably, but not all, and Min's viewing was very specific.

[Kaznen]

I think it might be something about how all the Asha'man expect to die at anytime. From the beginning they were told by Rand and Taim, "If fighting doesn't kill you, the taint will."

 

I think they need to learn how to loosen up.