Proof that the Vision in Egwene's Accepted were not real

[HighLordXanthus]

In Egwene's third trip through the rings during her test to be raised to accepted, she is the Amyrlin Seat, and while dealing with Rand and all, she is taken by the black ajah. She is described during this as seeing her self in the mirror with the characteristic agelessness of Aes Sedai, though she says that she never held the Oath Rod. Seeing as we know that the binding of the Oath's is what causes the typical agelessness, it stands to reason that the whole thing is just a figment made up from her own mind

[icspots]

It could still be real stuff as interpreted by her mind. She thinks that being Aes Sedai (and channeling for a long time) gives you the ageless face, and they don't learn that it's the Oath Rod until much later.

 

Everything isn't from her mind though. Remember Nynaeve's test? Lan mentions Sharina Sedai (Nynaeve's Aes Sedai advisor), and then later Nynaeve learns that Sharina actually does exist. So there's probably some modicum of truth/realness to it.

[Magicana]

Yes, it was real. But only as far as she knew it, and only one potential way things could unfold. Think Rand using the Portal Stone to get to Toman Head. It was like that.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Um, in trip number one, she and Rand get married and have a baby without ever leaving the Two Rivers.

 

I don't think we need any more than that to know its all from her mind.

[Luckers]

The fact is that the visions seen in the rings are obviously a massive part constructed based on the mind of the viewer, and therefore suspect. Yet the malleability suggest at least an aspect of tel'aran'rhiod, and the various things that have come true, such as Sharina Malloy, or the many things in Egwenes vision show that there is also an external true aspect. Obviously it cant be taken as total truth, but neither can it be denied as total fabrication.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Obviously it cant be taken as total truth, but neither can it be denied as total fabrication.

 

The part about her and Rand never leaving the Two Rivers and having a baby named Joiya is a total fabrication. And while there must be some external input (or she couldn't have learned about the 13-13 turning, among other things) all of it is filtered through the purpose of the ter'angreal, which is to test the candidate for Accepted (not predict reality). Egwene's test may have been slightly closer to reality (because of the resonance with the ter'angreal and her abilities as a Dreamer) but none of it will be really accurate because it is altered for a purpose. So, basing any decisions on those experiences would be foolish, as Egwene seems to be well aware.

[Guest Egwene]

Aren't they meant to be different paths that her live could have taken as well as could still take in the future? And if for example she had stayed in the two rivers than she likely would have named her baby Joiya...

 

So burried amongst all of it are probably the true pictures of things yet to happen....?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Aren't they meant to be different paths that her live could have taken as well as could still take in the future? And if for example she had stayed in the two rivers than she likely would have named her baby Joiya...

 

So burried amongst all of it are probably the true pictures of things yet to happen....?

 

The only other experience we have to go on is Nynaeve's, and none of hers seem remotely possible (one was purely abstract, and the other two have already been disproven by actual events). The only one of Egwene's could maybe happen is the one where she has to kill Rand, and that one seems unlikely.

 

The ter'angreal is meant to test the candidate. It apparently draws on both the candidate's mind, and some aspect of Tel'aran'rhiod, to make the tests as realistic as possible. That is, realistic in an experiential sense, not in the sense of showing what really happen. They need to feel real to the candidate, and sometimes the damage can be real (per Tel'aran'rhiod) but it is not exactly like Tel'aran'rhiod, in that it is all filtered through the mind of the candidate (hence, Nynaeve's thorns represented punishment she felt she deserved, not her actual experience).

 

The ter'angreal's ability to access information through Tel'aran'rhiod may have been enhanced by Egwene's ability as a Dreamer, and possibly by the proximity of the twisted ring ter'angreal, but its purpose was not altered. It wasn't there to tell the future, it was there to test Egwene.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Certain elements in the testing (particularly appearances) are definitely result from the testee's belief of how they should be. At the same time, certain elements are beyond any possible knowledge available to the testee. Those are the 2 facts that are essentially undebateable.

 

After Rand uses the Portal Stone to travel to Toman Head, we see some things that are very similar to what Egwene sees. Rand and Egwene never leaving the Two Rivers and getting married. Egwene killing him with a dagger. Egwene as Amyrlin leading the circle to gentle him. Many of those visions have at least a close parallel to Egwene's 3 trips through the testing Ter'angreal. The only believable way that I can see for that to happen is that the Ter'angreal is drawing from the same worlds that Rand had glimpses of and uses those possibilities as the subject matter for the test.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The only believable way that I can see for that to happen is that the Ter'angreal is drawing from the same worlds that Rand had glimpses of and uses those possibilities as the subject matter for the test.

 

That makes complete sense, since in the descriptions we have of the Greater Pattern, Tel'aran'rhiod lies between and within not only the parallel "Worlds That Might Be", which Rand saw some of, but between and within the perpendicular worlds that lie across the others. (see Verin's explanation to Egwene in TDR, ch 21) Tel'aran'rhiod provides both access and the feel of reality.

 

So, to speculate:

 

The ter'angreal reads the candidate's mind in a general way. It then accesses the parallel worlds (or perhaps the perpendicular ones, for abstract experiences like Nynaeve's first) through Tel'aran'rhiod and finds potential scenarios that would be a good test of the candidate's resolve to become Aes Sedai. It then presents those possibilities to the candidate, using Tel'aran'rhiod to make the complete sensory environment as realistic as possible.

 

If, and I say if that is correct, then none of those possibilities will be realized in the "real" world, because they all come from alternate worlds.

[Beowolf]

Edit: Never mind,

Note to self: carefully read all posts to avoid posting ideas already posted. :oops:

[magdeleneinred]

I think a point that has to be made here is that the ter'angreal Aes Sedai use to test novices was not made directly for that purpose. Like all other ter'angreal until recently, it was found. The use may have nothing to do with what it was intended for. Therefore, saying that the ter'angreal is supposed to test the canditate is not really accurate. We don't know. We only know that Aes Sedai decided that it could be used to test novices. I personally think that it is a reflection or actual portal to alternate worlds where these events are occuring. It has been made clear in the books that the worlds portray every possible choice of every soul. It is possible that in her third arch, she has inverted an ageless face of Illusion, so that others might believe that she has held the Oath Rod.

[SBoydW]

It is possible that in her third arch, she has inverted an ageless face of Illusion, so that others might believe that she has held the Oath Rod.

 

Or her mind added that part because she thought that in order to become the Amyrlin you would have to be an Aes Sedai, which meant that she would have had to have held the oath rod.

[Luckers]

Well the main reason Egwenes strikes me as different is the influence between the rings and the dream ring. Note that the only other time a ter'angreal did that is when two seemingly made for the same purpose were put in a room together. That suggests that the rings definately involve tel'aran'rhiod. And the influence of the dream ring seems to have changed the experience.

 

And Robert... as i said, whilst there are obvious falseties there are also obvious truths, and things which cannot have been dreamt up by the mind of the viewer, such as Nynaeve's experiences with Sharina.

[isleofjib]

Certain elements in the testing (particularly appearances) are definitely result from the testee's belief of how they should be. At the same time' date=' certain elements are beyond any possible knowledge available to the testee. Those are the 2 facts that are essentially undebateable.

 

After Rand uses the Portal Stone to travel to Toman Head, we see some things that are very similar to what Egwene sees. Rand and Egwene never leaving the Two Rivers and getting married. Egwene killing him with a dagger. Egwene as Amyrlin leading the circle to gentle him. Many of those visions have at least a close parallel to Egwene's 3 trips through the testing [i']Ter'angreal[/i]. The only believable way that I can see for that to happen is that the Ter'angreal is drawing from the same worlds that Rand had glimpses of and uses those possibilities as the subject matter for the test.

 

i like this explaination and RAW's further interpretation of it. it just makes sense.

[magdeleneinred]

Or her mind added that part because she thought that in order to become the Amyrlin you would have to be an Aes Sedai, which meant that she would have had to have held the oath rod.

 

Actually she knows in her arch that she never held the oath rod.

[RobertAlexWillis]

And Robert... as i said, whilst there are obvious falseties there are also obvious truths, and things which cannot have been dreamt up by the mind of the viewer, such as Nynaeve's experiences with Sharina.

 

While I see your point, those externally gleaned truths are so corrupted in application by their altered context that they are not really useful in any way, in the sense of being able to make decisions predicated on them.

[isleofjib]

that's why cwest's theory makes so much sense. if it's based on alternate realities like rand's jumps thru the portal stones, then it explains both why they had details that are not correct, but also had details that are correct and couldn't be there from the person's own mind.

 

it works with all that we know of that ter'angreal, TAR, and alternate worlds thru the portal stones.

[stoneface]

My understanding of Egwene's thought about never having held the oath rod was that the memory came from Egwene the original (the candidate for Acceptance), not from Egwene in the arch (the Amyrlin of the White Tower).

 

The previous post about an inverted mask to mimic agelessness is still possible. From Salidar onward, Egwene's thoughts are affected by the knowledge that she has not held the Oath Rod. The Oath Rod of the White Tower was last seen wth the AS in the WT who are hunting BA; I could easily see the Oath Rod disappearing in Book 12. Of course, we also know that it is a "binder" that was used on criminals in the AoL. Is this the beginning of the end of the AS Three Oaths?

[Telcar]

magdeleneinred wrote:

 

I think a point that has to be made here is that the ter'angreal Aes Sedai use to test novices was not made directly for that purpose. Like all other ter'angreal until recently, it was found. The use may have nothing to do with what it was intended for. Therefore, saying that the ter'angreal is supposed to test the canditate is not really accurate. We don't know. We only know that Aes Sedai decided that it could be used to test novices. I personally think that it is a reflection or actual portal to alternate worlds where these events are occuring. It has been made clear in the books that the worlds portray every possible choice of every soul. It is possible that in her third arch, she has inverted an ageless face of Illusion, so that others might believe that she has held the Oath Rod.

 

 

This explanation is close to my own, it's said by the AS that this ter'angreal probably wasn't used for the purpose of testing accepted -if there even was such a thing as an accepted in the AOL- It's just a ter'angreal that they have found A use for, it doesn't have to be THE use for this Ter'angreal.

 

This thread is pretty much open to any speculation about this Ter'angreal :P I don't see any right or wrong here.

[Luckers]

While I see your point, those externally gleaned truths are so corrupted in application by their altered context that they are not really useful in any way, in the sense of being able to make decisions predicated on them.

 

Certainly. I never suggested anything other then that its an abstract point of interest.

 

Also, it should be noted that tel'aran'rhiod intersects all worlds. Recall the dreams that Egwene percieves of beings so alien she couldn't begin to touch them. It seems very possible to me that the ter'angreal is drawing on this aspect.