verin sedai could be black ajah

[Darian]

in the great hunt, verin sedai went forth to meet Ingtar's horn quest saying that Moraine had sent her to look after the search party. However, when Rand confronted Moraine with the news in the end of the book, she had denied the truth. so who's lying? it is only possible of verin to do so if she reswore on the oath rod to free her from telling the truth. any suggestions?

[Guest Wynne Jessal]

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=8

 

http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/2_nondark/2.2_rest-chars/2.2.7_verin.html

[Graendals favourite]

Verin can be very creative in interpreting the Oath, but there's nothing to show clearly she'd be free of the oaths. If she is free, I still doubt she would be a Darkfriend.

 

To that contradiction in the Great Hunt, well Moiraine did say in Blood Calls Blood:

... "Then we must find the dagger, Sister. Agelmar is sending men to hunt those who took the Horn and slew his oathsmen, the same who took the dagger. If one is found, the other will be."

Verin nodded, but frowned at the same time. ....

 

She could have interpreted that already as Moiraine sending her to find the dagger.

[Luckers]

Verin is not Black Ajah, this is disproved both by her not poisoning Cadsuane, and her PoV thoughts in that scene, and at the Cleansing and her compelling of the Aes Sedai to ensure Rand survives to Tarmon Gai'don.

[FelixA9]

Verin is an interesting character. Remember when she asks Perrin when he's going to give up the axe for the hammer? And then we find out the significance of it in Knife of Dreams? while she does seem to go her own way much of the time I think what settled it for me was when her and her group met Grendael at the clensing and she mentioned being in the fight of her life or something there abouts.

[ASHAMAN1282083201]

didnt verin use compulsion on elza

[Luckers]

She used it on all the capture Aes Sedai.

[RobertAlexWillis]

didnt verin use compulsion on elza

 

Yes ... but thats not against the Three Oaths, so it means nothing in this conversation.

[Myyrth]

I consider her to be one of the scariest Aes Sedai to have around Rand.

 

I find her to be disturbingly amoral, far more frightening and dangerous than Cadsuane if only because of how unpredictable and mysterious her motives are.

 

I've said it before, Rand must distance himself from Aes Sedai, they are not to be trusted.

[Luckers]

I certainly think Verin is amongst the most dangerous characters in the series, but i also think she is working for the greater good.

[cloglord]

I agree with all of the above assesments of Verin. She is probably my favorite character simply because I have no clue as to her motives for anything. I have SCOURED the books trying to find ANYTHING that happened 70 years ago. With the exception of Zarya Alkaese running away from the tower, I have yet to find any clue as to what Verin has been doing for the last 70 years. Infuriating, I feel like a dog worrying a bone.

 

Coincidently enough, Careane is mentioned as being a novice with Zarya 70 years ago, could it be a BA connection?

[Guest cwestervelt]

didnt verin use compulsion on elza

 

Yes ... but thats not against the Three Oaths' date=' so it means nothing in this conversation.[/quote']

 

She also explains how she learned it by piecing information together from various Wilder novices, and how what she ended up with isn't a true form of Compulsion. She cannot simply make someone do what she wants. The target of the weave must have their own internal motivation. It is more like she implanted a suggestion in the other Aes Sedais' subconcious. That in itself makes it significantly different from what we have seen the Forsaken and what Liandrin tried against Moghedien.

 

When Verin is using compulsion in the prologue to The Path of Daggers we get some good indications that that Verin is still bound by the correct Three Oaths. The entire passage is full of mental justifications and spin doctoring.

 

"What...?" Beldeine said drowsily. Her head would have lolled except for Verin's grip, and her eyelids were half-closed. "What are you ...? What is happenning?"

 

"Nothing that will harm you," Verin told her reasuringly. The woman might die inside the year, or in ten, as a result of this, but the weave itself would not harm her. "I promise you, this is safe enough to use on an infant." Of course, that depended on what you did with it.

 

...

 

At last Beldeine's convulsions lessened, stopped. She raised a filthy hand to her head. "What-? What happened?" she said, almost inaudibly. "Did I faint?" Forgetfulness was another good point about the weave, not unexpectedly. AFter all, Father must not remember that you somehow made him buy that expensive dress.

 

"The heat is very bad," Verin said, helping her sit up again. "I have felt light-headed myself once or twice today." From weariness, not heat.

[DocBean]

I don't trust Verin at all, and haven't since I reread the books a few years ago. RJ obviously wanted the reader to catch her in a lie. No one else in the books caught her, even Moraine would probably assume that Perrin (or whoever it was that told her Moraine sent Verin) was mistaken by what she actually said.

 

Example "Verin said you sent her." said Perrin

Moraine's point of view - dumb boy probably thought he heard that, but she probably didn't say it like that... "I never said that."

 

You also cannot say Verin's Point of view in any part of any book clearifies that she is pro Light or a Darkfriend. She said during the cleansing that a captured Forsaken could prove useful. Many Black Ajah DFs use the word Forsaken so you can't use that, and a captured Forsaken could prove useful for either a good Aes Sedai, or a Darkfriend.

 

Wanting Rand to live until TG doesn't mean she's good, she may just want to be the one to kill him, thus earning her a higher spot in the Dark circles.

 

Using a form of compulsion doesn't make her a darkfriend.

 

Robert Jordan has done a very good job not letting us know if she is good or bad, and has been very careful not to let us know.

 

Bottom line is, we don't know yet, we won't know until she does something.

my guess is she's a darkfriend. Aram is the closest thing we've seen to a good guy going bad, and that was kind of weak. I base my guess only on the fact that we caught her lie, and RJ said it wasn't a mistake.

[DocBean]

didnt verin use compulsion on elza

 

When Verin is using compulsion in the prologue to The Path of Daggers we get some good indications that that Verin is still bound by the correct Three Oaths. The entire passage is full of mental justifications and spin doctoring.

 

"What...?" Beldeine said drowsily. Her head would have lolled except for Verin's grip' date=' and her eyelids were half-closed. "What are you ...? What is happenning?"

 

"Nothing that will harm you," Verin told her reasuringly. The woman might die inside the year, or in ten, as a result of this, [b']but the weave itself would not harm her.[/b] "I promise you, this is safe enough to use on an infant." Of course, that depended on what you did with it.

 

...

 

At last Beldeine's convulsions lessened, stopped. She raised a filthy hand to her head. "What-? What happened?" she said, almost inaudibly. "Did I faint?" Forgetfulness was another good point about the weave, not unexpectedly. AFter all, Father must not remember that you somehow made him buy that expensive dress.

 

"The heat is very bad," Verin said, helping her sit up again. "I have felt light-headed myself once or twice today." From weariness, not heat.

 

 

Any Dark sister would try not to lie as much as possible as well it's in Aes Sedai Nature. You can't use that as a fact that she is good. Any Black Ajah member would twist the truth as much as possible rather than lie. Even Cadsuane said the only thing she's regreted her life is to watch the Blah Ajah slip away from her like smoke through her fingers. So we know she's been hunting them, they are obviously very good at not being found.

 

She does some shaddy things, but acting shaddy doesn't make you a DF either.

 

This discussion should have a poll we can vote on.

[Luckers]

In CoT she is about to poison Cadsuane, but stops when Cadsuane speaks of her intention to aid Rand. She also compels the Tower Aes Sedai into aiding up to and in the Last Battle. At the Cleansing she thinks calmly of how useful a captive Forsaken would be, with none of the hedging of loyalty that Elza experiences.

 

She gives Egwene the ring that directly leads to many victories for the light, rather then turning it over, as was the general command for the Black Ajah in reguards to all dream related ter'angreal. She held onto the Horn of Valere and had the Wonder Girls in her direct power, yet does nothing to them despite the order that they be removed from the game. Then there is the fact that at various stages in the story she had knowledge that would be very detrimental to the Light if the Shadow found out, yet the Shadow never does.

 

She is not Black Ajah.

[isleofjib]

well stated, luckers. i concur. she's not black. but there is something going on with her we've yet to find out. we know she's not free of the oaths (she's still ageless), but she has none of the deference to ANY other AS that a normal AS would have (siuan when she amyrlin and cadsuane the 2 most obvious that come to mind). and something happened to her in Far Madding that isn't well explained. and her and moraine are the only 2 AS that have shown they are willing to bend/break all the rules for rand and don't try to put their leash around his neck. she's very intriguing to me.

[reyler]

I think Verin has been busy mostly with engineering events so that everything falls out exactly as the prophecies state they will. The first example was the "five go, four return" thing. That probably wouldn't have gone down like that if she hadn't brought it up. Egwene would have taken a much longer time in getting to the point she's at with the Dreamer business if she hadn't given her the twisted ring, and Egwene (along with Nynaeve) is important in the grand scheme somehow, or Liandrin wouldn't have been ordered to drop her off at Falme. And of course there's how she spotted all the Wolf King stuff and was at least partly responsible for Perrin's status as Lord of the Two Rivers. Anyone who doesn't think she's behind that pesky wolfhead banner? And advancing the "unstained tower bending knee to Rand" theorem with the da'tsang Aes Sedai after getting caught in it herself.

I think she basically serves the same function as Belgarath and Polgara were retconned into having over in the inferior Belgariad. Or Merlin, really, given her apparent foreknowledge and manipulating of events. I wouldn't be surprised to find her at the back end of every seemingly insignificant thing that's happened in the story; the ones that added up to something in the prophecies, anyway. Tarmon Gaidon is a seven layered cake; Verin's just making sure the frosting is mixed right, no matter how many eggs get broken.

Speaking of which, I really really hate cake frosting. Unless it's butter-based.

[Darian]

well thanks a lot guys...I was slightly worried for rand's sake. also...Alvarian said that Verin was some how tainted by Mat's dagger along the way to Tar Valon...could this be a possible trigger that may turn her evil? :?

[Graendals favourite]

Verine the Accepted was tainted, not Verin Mathwin. Fain slashed at Verine after all, and she was dead when Alviarin commented on it.

[Darkloki]

Maybe she has no secret mission. She is Brown Ajah, and could just be wanting to keep Rand alive for study, and uses the events as a learning point. To learn more she pushes things forward, so she can learn all she can before TG and any losses to her study could happen. Dreamers havent happened in what 400 years, the Dragon not around in an age atleast, captured forsaken useful to her studies. Elyas was the last known wolf brother to live so a chance to study a developing one (Perrin) is a chance of a life time. And the Wolf banner, Lord Perrin thing could just be an experiment involving wolves and Manatheren blood. Maybe see what will come of that land when it has a lord again, and is united, becoming once again a great nation. Isnt that what a browns mind is all about, thier studies?