Quality Discussion Thread

[NitroS]

i liked mat and how he sounded this book made me laugh quite a lot i think it was abit over the top in some parts, aka the note to galad when its tarmon gai'dan but i still liked it. people need to be more thankful they got an ending, jordan originally wanted all the notes burned.

[NitroS]

i liked mat and how he sounded this book made me laugh quite a lot i think it was abit over the top in some parts, aka the note to galad when its tarmon gai'dan but i still liked it. people need to be more thankful they got an ending, jordan originally wanted all the notes burned.

[CTGryffindor]

 

 

But I know the difference between a good story and good literature; it's vast, to say the least. Only the Lord of the Rings spans the two.

None of that addresses the drop in quality between RJ and Sanderson however, nor does it preclude one from using literary analysis to critique these works.

 

As for saying only Lord of the Rings spans the two, see links below for just a few examples that show you to be off on that take.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gormenghast_(series)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_the_New_Sun

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little,_Big

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_of_Nothing

 

The first three have one major literary awards. Famed critic Harold Bloom has called "Little Big" a "neglected masterpiece" in the Western Canon.

 

Bakker is an example of a modern fantasy writer who has certainly bridged the gap and works in philosophical themes. I suggest you give some of them a shot. Might change your mind a bit.

Look, I understand there's a difference between good fantasy writing and bad fantasy writing. I just found the assertion that such and such was bad, "from a literary perspective," to be so obnoxious and pretentious that I laid the critique on a bit think. I DON'T think the WOT is a great piece of literature. At all. But, ordinarily, I'd let that go. After all, and to explain my J.K. Rowlings reference, I don't think Harry Potter is a great piece of literature either. But I LOVE them both. And since I couldn't stand high falutin criticisms of Harry Potter, I can't stand high falutin attempts to bolster Jordan. Both Jordan and Rowlings told great stories. Period. Neither was anywhere near as great a writer as a story teller. And I won't transform Jordan into something he wasn't in order to pretend that all would have been better with his series but for the fact that he died. Cause it wouldn't have been. His series took a serious wrong turn ages before he died. Sanderson actually brought about a beneficial course correction. Sad to say? Maybe. But true, nonetheless.

[Mario Cole]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Did the book give me everything I wanted? No. Did it give me as much as could be expected under the circumstances? Yes, and more so if considered as part three of the single book originally promised.

For what it's  worth I like what you say and feel a  bit the same .

It's worth a lot, considering no one else agrees. :)

 

 

Oh I agree. I'm glad you put it in the way you did because I'd probably get more antagonistic.

 

The forum needs a "like" function. Perhaps there are sufficient "lurkers" to constitute a silent majority? :)

Well I think lurkers learn to avoid "quality" discussions in short order. It was actually clever of the DM staff to direct the vented spleen here so it doesn't overwhelm the other threads.

[Suttree]

Look, I understand there's a difference between good fantasy writing and bad fantasy writing. I just found the assertion that such and such was bad, "from a literary perspective," to be so obnoxious and pretentious that I laid the critique on a bit think. I DON'T think the WOT is a great piece of literature. At all. But, ordinarily, I'd let that go. After all, and to explain my J.K. Rowlings reference, I don't think Harry Potter is a great piece of literature either. But I LOVE them both. And since I couldn't stand high falutin criticisms of Harry Potter, I can't stand high falutin attempts to bolster Jordan. Both Jordan and Rowlings told great stories. Period. Neither was anywhere near as great a writer as a story teller. And I won't transform Jordan into something he wasn't in order to pretend that all would have been better with his series but for the fact that he died. Cause it wouldn't have been. His series took a serious wrong turn ages before he died. Sanderson actually brought about a beneficial course correction. Sad to say? Maybe. But true, nonetheless.

Are you seriously suggesting the series is better off because RJ died? Wow...just wow. Again just see KoD for the direction things were headed.

 

For the rest I feel like I need to remphasize something here. You keep insinuating that I am placing RJ up on some unrealistic pedastal. I have never done that, not once. I called Jordan out after CoT like most did here. Just because RJ doesn't compare to the literary greats, does not change the fact that these last three books are riddled with issues and are a step down from the quality under the previous author. Jordan's prose was polished, Jordan didn't have blunt plot work, Jordan didn't have wooden dialog and poor characterization. Again as I said earlier Team Jordan has admitted to many of the faults so I have no idea why you are pretending as if they don't exist. One doesn't need a degree or "high falutin" criticism to notice the many issues.

 

Lastly as for quality in fantasy, it goes beyond "good" and "bad". Regardless of genre Peake, Wolfe(the work of these two are considered classics of literature) and Bakker are considered great literature, not just great fantasy.

[Kivam]

 

I'm really glad that type of thing didn't happen earlier in the series; it's what made me stop reading A Song of Ice and Fire after the first book and a half. If characters are just going to be randomly dying everywhere, I'm not going to let myself make any emotional attachments to any of them, and then what's the point of an epic fantasy series? 

 

As it is, I don't think I'm ever going to be able to do another WoT reread, because knowing that Egwene dies in the end will make it impossible to read any of the scenes involving her in earlier books since she just ended up dying anyway and all the effort I put into caring about her was a waste.

 

An odd approach. It's possible to form emotional attachments to characters and this to add to the experience of reading when they die: it hurts, showing you are invested in the story and the writer was successful in drawing you into the series. Egwene's death in particular comes after fourteen novels of her being around and having lots of storylines and doing important things, and her death is the catalyst for Rand's victory (or the most notable one). Egwene earns her death scene as much as any of the characters in ASoIaF earn theirs.

 

The use of character death in ASoIaF is more effective, however, as they come early in the series and raise the stakes. There is tension if you don't know if the character you are reading about will live or die. WoT gave way too many characters invincible plot armour earlier in the series, and whilst many of the deaths in AMoL are effective it also feels a little obvious to hold back on major character deaths until the last 300 pages of the entire series (and let's be honest, apart from Egwene, some of the villains and arguably Gawyn and Siuan, most of the deaths were of second and third tier characters at best).

 

[CTGryffindor]

Deleted, in attempt to respond to the correct reply this time....

[Viperswhip]

 

 

3) His Mat seemed to be more off than ever - maybe I haven't done a reread in a long time, but Uno was bad too. Cringeworthy. He seemed to be swearing just for the sake of it, not because he actually wanted to.

Really? I thought Mat was better in AMoL. Mind you that's not saying much because I thought he was horrible in tGS and ToM but still better. And Uno does swear in pretty much sentence. I have a friend like that. He can swear 3 or 4 times in a single sentence. I think it becomes a habit after a while.

Yep, in conversation, especially with friends or my brother we swear a lot, and don't even notice. Only when we actually swear at each other does it take on any meaning, otherwise it's just an adjective or whatever.

[ozimandias]

I thought it was great.  Truly great.  Enjoyed every minute of the last 20 hours I spent reading the book.  Hope everyone else at least got a small measure of the enjoyment I did!  

 

Most satisfied I've been with the end of a series ever, and I've read a lot of series.

[Suttree]

Did anyone notice that outside the mainish players almost all individual characterization totally disappeared. For instance read the planning session with Egwene and the Great Captains. With all the "yes" and "likes" it was like one character having a wooden conversation with himself. Take away the names and you quite literally would have zero idea who was who. I mean it's to the point where you take whatever mid level character it may be-insert cultural quirk for that nationality- and that is pretty much the extent of it.
 

*no quoting posts hidden by mods* - Kivam

Hmm. You edited to make that even more peevish I see.

Hope you know I wasn't trying to do any of that and as I have repeated it has nothing to do with love of RJ. I quite clearly conveyed where I believe he sits in relation to other writers and discussed how I was critical of him after CoT. None of that has anything to with the issues we are discussing with the quality of writing in these last three books however. Issues I might add you refuse to meet head on and keep deflecting. If you think I'm wrong it might be better to give examples of what Brandon did well instead of getting bent over some of us holding the flaws up to the light.

As for the part about RJ dying you did flat out say:

Gryff

And I won't transform Jordan into something he wasn't in order to pretend that all would have been better with his series but for the fact that he died. Cause it wouldn't have been. His series took a serious wrong turn ages before he died. Sanderson actually brought about a beneficial course correction. Sad to say? Maybe. But true, nonetheless.

Leaving aside the straw man you present at the start there really isn't much open to intepretation there.

[mgns]

I thought it was great.  Truly great.  Enjoyed every minute of the last 20 hours I spent reading the book.  Hope everyone else at least got a small measure of the enjoyment I did!  

 

Most satisfied I've been with the end of a series ever, and I've read a lot of series.

 

The more I think about it the more ambivalent I feel about Egwene dying. I guess that's a good thing, in a way. But I'm honestly upset about it. Haven't been that over a book in a long while.

 

I would have liked to see Moghedien get clear, by the way. One forsaken should be left in the world, to work for the DO. It would be a fitting thing for the Spider to manage.

[Mats Spare Hat]

Buhhh, buh buh buh....Tem..tempe...Tempest? Am I right? Guys common, Tempest!


*facial twitch *gestures spasmodically between Bill Buckner & flat can of soda

[mgns]

On that note, I was expecting at least one more character to be raised to the Chosen, not just Taim. Maybe Alviarin, she was more effective than most of the original Forsaken, after all.

[Viperswhip]

I don't get this tempest thing. It's one of the oldest words in the modern English language and has roots in other, older languages. What's the issue? I must have missed something.

[Viperswhip]

On that note, I was expecting at least one more character to be raised to the Chosen, not just Taim. Maybe Alviarin, she was more effective than most of the original Forsaken, after all.

While Asmo appeared weak, I don't know that we really know his true power level. Other than that, every one of the Forsaken was in LTT's ballpark. Alviarin is maybe Moiraine equivalent, but nowhere close to Elayne, Egwene or especially Nynaeve, which suggests to me that her interim status is the best Alviarin could hope for.

[Hopefire]

I don't get this tempest thing. It's one of the oldest words in the modern English language and has roots in other, older languages. What's the issue? I must have missed something.

Every time Sanderson uses the word 'tempest' Egwene sniffs and Nynaeve tugs on her braid.

 

Basically, it's a word Sanderson likes using but Jordan rarely used. You can tell the Sanderson sections because women sniff far less often, but there are usually tempests going on.

[lsm]

I don't get this tempest thing. It's one of the oldest words in the modern English language and has roots in other, older languages. What's the issue? I must have missed something.

 

the issue is... well it's tempesty!

[CTGryffindor]

 

Did anyone notice that outside the mainish players almost all individual characterization totally disappeared. For instance read the planning session with Egwene and the Great Captains. With all the "yes" and "likes" it was like one character having a wooden conversation with himself. Take away the names and you quite literally would have zero idea who was who. I mean it's to the point where you take whatever mid level character it may be-insert cultural quirk for that nationality- and that is pretty much the extent of it.

 

*see above re quote* -Kiv

Hmm. You edited to make that even more peevish I see.

Hope you know I wasn't trying to do any of that and as I have repeated it has nothing to do with love of RJ. I quite clearly conveyed where I believe he sits in relation to other writers and discussed how I was critical of him after CoT. None of that has anything to with the issues we are discussing with the quality of writing in these last three books however. Issues I might add you refuse to meet head on and keep deflecting. If you think I'm wrong it might be better to give examples of what Brandon did well instead of getting bent over some of us holding the flaws up to the light.

 

As for the part about RJ dying you did flat out say:

 

Gryff

>>>>>

And I won't transform Jordan into something he wasn't in order to pretend that all would have been better with his series but for the fact that he died. Cause it wouldn't have been. His series took a serious wrong turn ages before he died. Sanderson actually brought about a beneficial course correction. Sad to say? Maybe. But true, nonetheless.

Leaving aside the straw man you present at the start there really isn't much open to intepretation there.

 

 

 

I believe that: (1) the series took a wrong turn before Jordan died; and (2) Sanderson did a lot to correct much of what had gone wrong after Robert Jordan died. I never said the series was better BECAUSE Jordan died. Perhaps Jordan would have righted the ship---there is no doubt in my mind he knew that the series had gotten out of hand, based in part on the fact that he was promising that the grave wouldn't finish him from finishing after about six books.  Christ, the man's joke about not dying before he finished was never funny:  I always feared he'd die first, because the series was so runaway, which he obviously knew.  Nevertheless, there is no doubt that no one could have finsihed Jordan's own series better than Jordan.

[MarkDiLillo]

Did anyone notice that outside the mainish players almost all individual characterization totally disappeared. For instance read the planning session with Egwene and the Great Captains. With all the "yes" and "likes" it was like one character having a wooden conversation with himself. Take away the names and you quite literally would have zero idea who was who. I mean it's to the point where you take whatever mid level character it may be-insert cultural quirk for that nationality- and that is pretty much the extent of it.

 

I'm surprised everyone hasn't noticed this.  It was so bad it made me feel like I was reading a high school essay in parts of this.  I find it simply unbelievable that Brandon Sanderson teaches higher education literature and publishes something like this.

 

Parts of this book were written great IMO, but other parts...significant chunks...were written so poorly that I am pretty certain I could do better myself.  And I have zero experience with creative writing.

 

What really makes me disappointed is that in chapter 37 I actually saw proof that Brandon CAN write well.  He is either wildly inconsistent or picks and chooses the scenes he wants to write well.

[Suttree]

@CTgryff

 

So you don't believe Jordan had righted the ship with KoD after the low CoT point? You didn't enjoy the increased pace and clear direction of that novel?

 

Also I can't agree with your assessment that RJ lost control during TSR and TFoH. IMO the two finest books in the series. TPoD is the very earliest one coups begin to make that case.as I mentioned earlier though when stating Brandon's influence one must look at where we were in the story arc. KoD sped up considerably and things were drawing to a close. We will not know how skilled Brandon is in relation until we see a point comparable to CoT in his own Stormlight Archive. Many authors of long series have hit that mid-late portion slow down after all.

[Hopefire]

@CTgryff

So you don't believe Jordan had righted the ship with KoD after the low CoT point? You didn't enjoy the increased pace and clear direction of that novel?

'Forward' is an increased pace compared to CoT. Just because it was moving forward doesn't mean that it was moving forward particularly quickly. Clear direction? The best that can be said is that it finally tied off plots that had been hanging too long. It did little to provide direction, it just reached the end of the roads that characters had started upon in LoC and ACoS.

[Suttree]

@hope

 

Pace in relation to TGS and ToM as well, the three books were pretty equal in that regard although KoD had less filler(and had the disadvantage of not being as far along in the story arc). He had things pointed in the right direction and again we know RJ was capable. If you judged him on pace after TSR you would say it was a strength.

[CTGryffindor]

@CTgryff

 

So you don't believe Jordan had righted the ship with KoD after the low CoT point? You didn't enjoy the increased pace and clear direction of that novel?

 

 

 

No.  I read the first four books with bated breath.  Everything else was an increasing disaster, with sporadic awesomeness thrown in at the end to keep me interested.  But even things like Dumai's Wells and the cleansing of saidin would have been enough to keep me involved if it weren't for the great story Jordan had created, and sucked me into, in the first four novels.  Everything from novel five to eleven was disappointment, from one to degree or another, depending on the slops Jordan would throw me at the end.

 

On the other hand, and perhaps why I am such a defender of Sanderson, I became emotionally invested once again following the Veins of Gold Chapter and those that led up to it.  Sanderson made me care once again, and that's all that I could ask for.  This last book was just a treat, like Godfather Part III.  An ending to a story I love, regardless of whether it is great cinema....

[madpoet]

BS has several problems and has since he wrote the first book in this trilogy.  Mainly, his dialog most of the time is just not good.  He never seemed comfortable with the "voice" of the characters, and nowhere is that more clear than with ANY of the Aiel.  He never could capture their essence in his writing and as a result their importance and screen time were dramatically reduced.  I wish he had been better able to find that voice.  Overall I thought there was no need to make this a trilogy, it could have been done in 2 books (which of course would have made a fitting number of books... 13!).  Too many things seemed tossed in here, like the whole Wyld storyline and the end of Fain.  At times it dragged too much and at other times critical plotlines and characters were killed off with little to no fanfare.  Siun and Gareth Bryne are the prime example of that in my mind.  While not a "main" character it was abrupt and weird. 

 

I am happy after 23 years we have an end.  It was a long, strange, and at times amazing journey.  While I certainly didn't expect every storyline to be wrapped up I did expect a few more finales.  Seems like the only closures we had were with people who died :)  And while on a personal level you can't help but be happy for Rand, that last page was just lame.

[CTGryffindor]

@CTgryff

 

So you don't believe Jordan had righted the ship with KoD after the low CoT point? You didn't enjoy the increased pace and clear direction of that novel?

 

 

 

Double post.  Sorry....