Quality Discussion Thread

[Suttree]

 

So now that our favorite series ended in a train wreck, it's time to move on:

 

Who has some good suggestions for a next series??  I'll stab anyone that suggest Brandon Sanderson.

 

You could read Terry Goodkind. 

 

What?  You only said no Brandon Sanderson!

Lol...classic!

[Vambram]

So now that our favorite series ended in a train wreck, it's time to move on:

 

Who has some good suggestions for a next series??  I'll stab anyone that suggest Brandon Sanderson.

 

What some call a train wreck, others thoroughly believe is a very good and satisfying ending.

 

As for next series for you to read, I suggest the Mistborn trilogy. 

 

Seriously, it really is a very good trilogy.

 

However, if you have not read the 10 books of the Malazan Books of the Fallen series by Steven Erikson, then I most certainly recommend that to you. To me, those 10 books are almost as good as the WOT series.

[MarkDiLillo]

 

So now that our favorite series ended in a train wreck, it's time to move on:

 

Who has some good suggestions for a next series??  I'll stab anyone that suggest Brandon Sanderson.

 

You could read Terry Goodkind. 

 

What?  You only said no Brandon Sanderson!

 

oh god....dont get me started on goodkind...

[MarkDiLillo]

Is Malazon that new "dark fantasy" style?

[Suttree]

Is Malazon that new "dark fantasy" style?

You could say it generally fits in with that. Along those lines have you read Joe Abercrombie? The First Law Trilogy is pretty awesome. Or how about Scott Lynch? The Gentlemen Bastards Sequence is off to a good start.

[MarkDiLillo]

Havent read any of those.  One reason I didnt like the GRRM novels was because they were too dark and gritty.  They literally weren't fun to read...just too filled with depressing events.  So Im trying to avoid another series that is the same way.

[Suttree]

You would probably like Scott Lynch. More Oceans 11 style than super dark. Start with Lies of Locke Lamora.

 

How about any of Guy Gavriel Kay? Tigana, A Song for Arbonne, The Lions of al-Rassan etc.

[MarkDiLillo]

cool ill look them up this week.  thanks.  need something to get my mind of this last book

[Ruth]

@Held

 

As has been quoted in thread those notes were contradictory at times, they said well I might "do this or this" and they were not that robust. Sanderson created over 50% of the story with no direction from the notes. That is far different from him having no creative input as you stated earlier. Make no mistake that Team Jordan bears responsibility but as others have said if an author doesn't feel the work is ready its up to him to put his foot down.

@Suttree

 

I agree that he created over 50% of the story but for the most part he was following RJ's notes on what he wanted to happen where and to whom. He did create much of the story needed to achieve the goals set by RJ but I contend that this is not real creativity. It is like filling in the lines with crayons. You can pick the colors but you have to stay in the form.

 

I would much preferred RJ to live and finish the tale. I love the way he told this story. I wish Brandon could have come closer to RJ's style of writing and I believe that Harriet and Team Jordan could have done a bit more to successfully blend the two authors styles. I have read Brandon's stories and like them but they are very different from RJ. Overall I am satisfied that the end of the story was completed and I got some enjoyment out of reading it. I forgive Brandon for not being RJ. I can't think of any author who writes like RJ.

[Suttree]

 

@Held

 

As has been quoted in thread those notes were contradictory at times, they said well I might "do this or this" and they were not that robust. Sanderson created over 50% of the story with no direction from the notes. That is far different from him having no creative input as you stated earlier. Make no mistake that Team Jordan bears responsibility but as others have said if an author doesn't feel the work is ready its up to him to put his foot down.

@Suttree

 

I agree that he created over 50% of the story but for the most part he was following RJ's notes on what he wanted to happen where and to whom. He did create much of the story needed to achieve the goals set by RJ but I contend that this is not real creativity. It is like filling in the lines with crayons. You can pick the colors but you have to stay in the form.

As has been quoted a few times now:

 

Brandon

I've mentioned before that in his notes he would often have comments where he says, "I will either do this, or this," and sometimes the options are very contradictory. He had not yet decided between them, and I ended up being the one who decided which one we were going to do.

[Ruth]

Is Malazon that new "dark fantasy" style?

Malazan is epic fantasy but not like Tolkien so not like RJ. It is my favorite epic fantasy series. It is not everybody's cup of tea as it is written by Steven Erikson, an former archeologist, whose opinions about environmental destruction run throughout. It is entirely engrossing.

 

Per “Paul’s Fantasy Favorites”, "Erikson's Malazan Book of the Fallen is so utterly different from Tolkien. This fantasy cycle comprises ten volumes (all in print). Each book is brilliant, brutal, magnificent, and unpredictable; each stands alone, though the books are wonderfully interwoven.

Erikson's prose hits hard: makes you wince, twists your gut. Makes you laugh, and leaves you silent. Empty. The writing is stark, driven, uncompromising. Morality is ambiguous, and betrayal the norm.

Erikson does not spare his characters - they love and hate, triumph gloriously and are ripped apart, sometimes all in the same few breaths. He does not apologize for them, but his sympathy for even the most heinous of them is immense.

Erikson's world is intensely old: hundreds of thousands of years layered down in dirt and blood, bone and ash. Magic abounds, powerful, fickle stuff, none of it cheap. The warrens - currents of lifeblood for an Elder God - are assailed, treacherous. Dreams make for strange, alternate magic, and the magic of the Deck defies and limits the others. And as in our world, chance skews outcomes into unforeseen directions.

Military campaigns are ugly, messy affairs, complex and treacherous and thoroughly believable. Cultures are brilliantly portrayed: through their pottery and art, slums and brothels, oral traditions and mythologies, garb and dialect, animal husbandry and the artistry of insults. Peoples and tribes, cities and villages, sects, religions, cultural and biological evolution are vivid and unique - our 'real' life but a dim reflection of Erikson's, to the last (vicious) lapdog. Not a single trite unmemorable caricature, or a single wasted detail - this world is real, grabs you, drags you along.

Warning to the reader: if you want an easy read, nothing complicated or unpleasant, no moral ambiguities - stay clear. Erikson is not for you"

 

Another author to consider is Daniel Abraham. His Long Price Quartet is quite good and the first book of his epic fantasy "Dragon's Path" is a promising first book for his series.

 

I can't think other any other author like RJ but there are other excellent authors just different styles of writing.

[kasheem]

I tried reading a few random pages to see if this was talked about before me, but there are just too many.  Anyways....

 

Am I the only person who feels like we just read a fan fiction version of the end of a great series?  I'm not here talking about quality of literature or what not. I am talking about simple choices.  The most basic kind.  This person lives, this person doesn't.  There were 10's of thousands of deaths and while many big characters were killed only 1 of the main characters (my use of main characters referring to the 6 who left Emond's Field together + Nyneave).  There were many on a tier half a step lower too, but I want to focus on those. 

 

Out of them magically only one gets killed and magically it is the most hated character in the entire series.  He has Lan commit suicide in an epic ending that was wonderful for him only to pull the rug out and say "gotcha".  #copy/paste for Rand.  Nyneave was severely underutilized in the final book and Moiraine even more so.  I understand that once the wars had begun and especially the last battle their need was with rand, but why did it take so long to get Moiraine reunited and she says like two things during those first couple of hundred pages.  Thom's role I actually really liked simply for the aspect of having more than one person see the battle as something to record which is realistic.  Perrin had nothing happen to him.  I will openly admit there is a minor bias here as he is my favorite character, but his lack of death around him/his own really stuck out to me.  Faile magically survives, Master Luhhan not only lives but is there to comfort him, his failure with slayer doesn't end up killing Gaul.  Those were his big 3 side characters and while a lot of wolves/ old friends/ in laws may have died not close ones like everyone else went through.  Mat Cauthon deserves a whole other discussion.  He is the one character I truly have no opinion of, RJ had clearly began using him as the loveable favorite he was but this book and ToM took it to another level.  I don't get how the final two books had his PoV roughly equal to or greater than any other single characters.  As for him living, a death never seemed to fit so that didn't bother me.

 

There we have it- 2 setups turned into "gotchas", three people in the same area which is the only place depicted to not see war (just assassins), the fan favorite hoisted higher, the forgotten character given much toh in the form of being considered too weak to handle the pain, and the only death is for the character everyone was glad to see it happen to.  Maybe it is just me because I find darker endings better, but I was simply enraged during the chapters following the last battle at those 7 choices being made so poorly.

[David Selig]

 Why would you think this reads like a fan fiction because of this? Jordan showed throughout the series that he was extremely reluctant to kill off any important Light side character even though he kept putting them in huge danger. I knew there was simply no way more than one main character would die.

[kasheem]

because it is literally the end of an age.  Keeping them going for so long, fine that's something I can accept to continue their plots.  Then it's the end and you have two choices, live or die.  They will eventually, and eventually will also be reborn and likely spun out into a life of power.  Rand's choice as has been stated was made by RJ and IDK how I feel about it.  What I do know is Brandon read that and then used essentially the same one for Lan and that was annoying and I don't get how anyone else can disagree.  I love Lan too, and there will never be a better death out there for him as an Aiel/Borderlander would put it.  All that was needed was one other person to die instead of or along with Egwene and this discussion is void, but because only the 100% most hated main character (based on my previous term usage) dies and the rest all live to me it felt like a fan's ending.  Killing the disliked and only the disliked.

 

I understand there were many loved characters killed in this book, but I am strictly speaking of the emond's field 6 plus Nyneave because IMO they were tier 1 (there are probably like 10 tiers) for the protagonists.

[Guest Underwhelmed]

Hi guys I think you can guess from my username how I feel about the book.I just want to put out my initial impressions and objections about the book in no particular order.

 

The writing quality was pretty poor,in the entirity of RJ's WoT I have only ever once been taken out of the book (in the chapter where RJ makes a cameo) while in this book alone it happened numerous times.

 

Juilin Sandars paragraph,every 2nd paragraph begins with the word Juilin.It's horrible,lazy stuff and the editors and proofreaders should hang their heads in shame as much as BS.

 

Mat and Rands 1st meeting in the book is awful,I can't really put my finger on why but the entire conversation just felt forced.BS is trying to be funny but fails miserably.A horrible scene.

 

Egwene coming up with anti-balefire,she has just lost her warder and is in a fight for her life yet magically comes up with the perfect weave.Talk about a Deus ex-machina.RJ cleverly used Lews Therin as the reason Rand could do this type of thing but other characters didn't have this knowledge.Nyneave for example healed stilling only after numerous sessions with Logain where she spent hours probing at the problem.

 

My last major objection is concerning Elaynes demeanour at Rands funeral.BS specifically mentioned that the seeing Birgitte alive didn't heal the pain of having the warder bond severed,her brother and childhood best friend is dead and her half brother is badly maimed or worse she doesn't know what has happened to him and he's missing,presumed dead.Despite this she is lounging around with Min and Aviendha while the funeral preparations are being made.

 

This is my initial impression after one read through and not a whole lot of thought put into it.How on earth did the team of people who must have being helping BS not notice these problems and the many other ones,were they so desperate to appease the fan base who wanted an ending that they sacrificed the quality of the story?

[BFG]

@kasheem:

 

In order of strongest protection through to weakest in terms of who could die:

Mat & Tuon had sequel armor - we know that RJ was planning sequels exploring their return to Seanchan.

 

Perrin & Faile have prophecy armor - Mins vision of a crown around Perrins head, inherited through Faile means they couldn't die.

Lan (& to an extent Nyn) had Mins viewing of a baby in a cradle holding a sword, seven Towers - per RJ all her viewings refer to the future so the viewing can't relate to Lan - so Lan at the least survives to have children and restore Malkier, although the viewing doesn't seem to give them a long-term future.

 

Elayne & Avi have Mins vision of babies, Elaynes still 3 months off, although that proved 'troublesome and no actual guarantee'.

Min has been foretelled to still be there as 'he who is dead still lives' depending on interpretation of when that prophecy refers to.

 

Rand has 'he who is dead yet lives' which is a vague protection, although prior to the events could refer to a couple of different people

 

Moiraine & Thom - no visions, beyond Thom rescuing her, but it would be beyond cruel to kill her having had her be dead for the past 8 books.

 

Siuan & Gareth have a vision saying they'll die if they seperate...

 

Eg & Gawyn have visions of them living or dying depending on whether they stay together or not, but with no way of knowing which choice leads to which option...

 

 

There weren't really many main characters that could die at this point.

 

 

@Mr Ares - I'm afraid your post was about 5 pages ago, so I'm not responding directly, but I believe the gist of your point was that RJ stated that it wouldn't work structurally as more than 1 book. 

 

If you take VoG as a chronological moment, then their are several arcs that have similar themes that all conclude roughly chronologically: namely Rands, Egs & Perrins.  It should be possible to have woven all those together (and possibly some of the BT stuff, ending with Rands messenger telling them they're not weapons).  So this seems a natural story break pont that could be used to either split the story or end the first half, depending on how you want to look at it.  For your second half that leaves you with Tower/Messana stuff, BT stuff, Elayne stuff, the ToG, FoM, Seanchan stuff & TG.  So you have Tower/Messana, BT, Elayne stuff running sequentially as it's not really about a power struggle as consolidating power, preperation...  You have ToG and FoM running together, as without knowing (for sure) that Moiraine has been rescued it adds tension to the possibility that the talks will break down.  You then get TG (with Seanchan woven through with the 4 battlefronts) and the Epilogue.

 

The problem is that even ignoring some of the stuff that RJ may have skipped their are still an awful lot of plot points and character arcs (particularly Rands) to 'get through', and I don't think RJ could have done it in 'one book' without losing much of the style that people are reading the books for in the first place (the (little) leeway BS is given on this wouldn't be given to RJ).  I'm not a lit expert and so I'm not entirely sure what is classically considered to be good structure, but it seems to include overarching themes that relate different character arcs together.  I tend to view things somewhat cinematically, so you start building things up and then have a big *whatever* at the end, which is why VoG works so well as a 'break' point.  Additionally it seems to me that the problem with the 'middle' of a series is that it tends to be the point at which all the characters are furthest apart, so you're telling all of their stories, compared to the beginning and end when they're all together.  But at the end of KoD they're all still apart from each other, so you're still starting with as many storylines that need to be told as their were in the middle sections.

 

Structurally however I'm not sure what the difference is in 2 books released as 2 books or 1 book released in 2 sections (other than only 1 prologue/epilogue).  If anyone would care to enlighten me?  Would be much appreciated (or indeed if my understanding of structure is all wrong then let me know before I make a bigger fool of myself). 

 

 

[Sarlic]

@Mark D and Sutree --

 

Think we could get a new thread started about what to read next?  Seriously, I'd love to hear some good suggestions, but scared they'd get buried in this thread if we try to change the topic to that.

 

I saw Sutree mention First Law -- that's a great read, very gritty.  There are also 2 or 3 outrigger novels set in that world as well.  I hope he does a sequel to the series!  I also really liked Tad Williams' Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn series -- starts off slowly but ends up being a very good read.  (I tried to get into Shadowmarch but just couldn't connect with it as much as I did MST.)  I also liked Donaldson's Covenant trilogies (haven't read the final one) and really enjoyed his Gap Series (which is more Sci-Fi than fantasy.)  Also, dare I say it, I recommend Mistborn.  Clever magic system, and interesting to read Brandon in his own world.  And I really enjoy Song of Ice and Fire, but yes, that can be very depressing.

 

Anyway -- big YES vote here for a separate thread to discuss this stuff!

[Mats Spare Hat]

Kasheem,

You're not alone, as far as the feelings of fan fiction.

For what it's worth, there were at least a couple scenes in AMoL where I got the impression, and this is a zaney angle, that the writer, BS, must not have known really what he wanted to do as far as content, and thus had some kind of lackey employed to lurk amongst fan-sites, in order to see what topics involved more intense discussion...something like that.

...Thus we end up with such lame sequence(s) to illustrate ah ha! This will set the record straight as to who's the best swordsperson! As well as, ah ha! I'll put in a scene explicitly to debunk the much discussed 'demandred as roedran' and it'll be great!

Great....just..great...    *cricket chirps

______

Aside: Anyone read any of that Dresden Files series, by Butcher? What's it written like? Alright? Crap? Similar in style to <insert author name here>?

[BFG]

@Sarlic - you could try

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/75695-need-reading-suggestions/?p=2023941

 

over in General Discussion?

[Vambram]

@kasheem:

 

In order of strongest protection through to weakest in terms of who could die:

Mat & Tuon had sequel armor - we know that RJ was planning sequels exploring their return to Seanchan.

 

Perrin & Faile have prophecy armor - Mins vision of a crown around Perrins head, inherited through Faile means they couldn't die.

Lan (& to an extent Nyn) had Mins viewing of a baby in a cradle holding a sword, seven Towers - per RJ all her viewings refer to the future so the viewing can't relate to Lan - so Lan at the least survives to have children and restore Malkier, although the viewing doesn't seem to give them a long-term future.

 

Elayne & Avi have Mins vision of babies, Elaynes still 3 months off, although that proved 'troublesome and no actual guarantee'.

Min has been foretelled to still be there as 'he who is dead still lives' depending on interpretation of when that prophecy refers to.

 

Rand has 'he who is dead yet lives' which is a vague protection, although prior to the events could refer to a couple of different people

 

Moiraine & Thom - no visions, beyond Thom rescuing her, but it would be beyond cruel to kill her having had her be dead for the past 8 books.

 

Siuan & Gareth have a vision saying they'll die if they seperate...

 

Eg & Gawyn have visions of them living or dying depending on whether they stay together or not, but with no way of knowing which choice leads to which option...

 

 

There weren't really many main characters that could die at this point.

 

+1

 

Therefore, if anyone wants to lay blame upon anyone for the lack of deaths within the 7 main characters, then the blame ought to be put on Robert Jordan, instead of on Brandon Sanderson.

 

On the other hand, unlike some of the critics in this thread and in this sub-forum, I completely and thoroughly enjoyed AMOL. For me, not only is AMOL an ending, but it is also one of the top 4 books in the WOT series.

[wRAR]

On the other hand, unlike some of the critics in this thread and in this sub-forum, I completely and thoroughly enjoyed AMOL. For me, not only is AMOL an ending, but it is also one of the top 4 books in the WOT series.

And 3 others are?

[CanUFeelTheLove?]

I am not surprised that Egwene is the only one to die from the original group - including loial. When I read the first book, I automatically think of the Fellowship of the Ring. To me, the connection between these books and those is strongest in the first book. Egwene is Boromir. She is close to Rand and the one who least agrees with destroying the Seals (Ring). 

 

I did think that Lan was actually dead for a while there. I thought Faile was, too. I figured the Saldeans would have taken him for their King anyway - knowing about his marriage and his importance to the end of the Third Age.

[Spainard]

For a series that prided itself on being painfully meticulous about every detail, there where way to many out of left field things thrown in right at the end. Starting with the red vieled aiel (epl of TOM), then quickly going to the town in the blight AMOL prol, followed by Murandy finally coming out of the closet, after that the Sharans stopping bye to say hi, Demandred, shaider haran being a pointless character build up (look at the husk and fade to black) and lastly why/how did Taim take just the seals when Rand had a few other trinkets stored with them. As a fan of the series for over 17 years I would have like some more explanation on things and now that Ive read AMOL I wish the series had gone to 16 not just 15 total books NS being included. I understand needing a few final gotcha moments and holding a few cards close till the end but to me there was way too many

[Gangorn]

This felt rushed. After 1000s of pages, 1000s of characters we were left with no closure. It's not Brandon's fault, from what I understand the ending was pure RJ. I like to thInk he intended to go back and add more.... How can we have been left with a 10 page epilogue? I feel....cheated.

[Vambram]

I think that the epilogue gave perfect closure for the WOT series.