Quality Discussion Thread

[Hack n Slash]

 

Indeed. I would add that the many character "revivals" removed some value from the ending. Faile, Galad, Lan... all these people seemingly "died". Then they were shown to be alive again. Its kind of cheapened the end a little. For a cataclysmic, world-ending battle, the body count among the major characters was less than it could have been. In fact, I felt that Perrin's character arc, in particular, was ill served with Faile's return, and Faile's own heroism given a less fitting end.

 

Think about it: Isn't "was last seen riding away to divert thousands of Trollocs from getting their hands on the Horn" so much more evocative of the desperation of this battle than "was last seen having survived a Trolloc charge with a broken leg"?

I couldn't agree more. Although when I had read these portions initially it made me sad considering the kind of 'bond' you form with these characters through the series I felt that their 'death' scenes were valiant and the type of thing you would expect mankind to do in an all-out battle for survival. The fact that they didn't die, however, somehow surviving I felt was pretty cheap. Lan went out like the BA he was, he had earned that death after single handedly taking down a Forsaken that had already defeated two of the world's best swordsman prior to that.

I'm sure this is a theory that was discussed before the book came out, but I was looking forward to massive deaths followed by the Horn reviving EVERYONE who had died as part of the story, because dying with the Dragon during Tarmon Gaidon is enough to bind you to the wheel.

[BFG]

I'm going to post this in 2 parts - my responses to other people were getting quite long :)

 

Not sure how to explain my feelings on the book - something along the lines of I'm happy (extremely so) with the storyline, but disappointed in the way it's written (for some, sometimes large segments of the book) (maybe).

 

I'm seemingly in the minority that the last few chapters and epilogue gave me exactly the ending I was hoping for, I think LotR went way to far overboard, HPs epilogue wasn't needed (it didn't tell me anything that I wasn't already sure would happen - although as that was meant for YA I can forgive it more), the only other fantasy series that had an ending that I liked as much as this one is The Chronicles of Prydain, or Hobbs Assassin, Liveship and Fool series (extending it to include crosses into SCiFI can include Amtrak Wars by P. Tilley). I don't need to know how Rands life lives out, I can guess (I may be wrong, but it doesn't matter to me), likewise with the other characters.

 

I also surprisingly liked the Battle sequences - normally this is where I get bored. I liked the fact that we got so many pov's from minor characters from throughout the books, I do wish that their had been a few more reflective povs such as Berelains, one of the Ashaman (forget which one, that was making Gateways to Hinderstrap), Tam(?) viewing the children collecting arrows, the TInkers... Their weren't quite enough to catch breath, but the ones that their were were extremely effective.

 

Mat felt closer to being Mat again, not all the way there, but closer, his relationship with Tuon went a lot better than I was expecting as well.

 

I loved Logains 'glory' for me it was a true highpoint of plot resolution (even if what we saw is only the beginning), plot twist and satisfying(enness)

 

I liked Egs fight and determination, but not the overuse of "I am the Amrylin, hear me roar"... (like I said, I like the story but not the way it was written.

 

I'm definately in the minority here but I thought Alannas bit was well done - mysterious disappearence which may or may not be related to Morridin and True Power, or to Verin who may or may not have been working for the good (depends on timeline issues which we can't figure out (rolls eyes))... Followed by Rand entering tunnel, a stab of fear/pain from 1 of the women (but bond distortion means he doesn't know which) and then the reveal. For me it works, I don't need more. The fact Alanna released him answers the question of whether or not she's a DF sufficiently for me.

 

 

 

 

Story plotwise the only thing I had a massive problem with is the first FoM, both Eg and Rand seemed all over the place - Rands insistance on leading the armies when in Towers he stated to Bashere that it was their war and he wasn't going to lead - I suppose he included it as a bargaining point he could make way on to ensure the Dragons Peace and the breaking of the Seals were agreed. I'm also not convinced by the Eg is the Amrylin Seat thing overplayed - but I can see where BS is coming from with it, I think their is foreshadowing of the anti-balefire if I can see some, their will be more as I'm normally rubbish at it.

 

 

The way the story is told, the use of modern language, the dialogue... Others have touched on this (at length :) ) so I won't repeat. I guess I'm luckier than most, it didn't bring me out of the story very much, one that stuck out and did was Tuons use of mandate, which is a real shame because it was one of the few 'tender' moments she had.

 

 

 

 

 

I suspect that had RJ written this it would vie for best in series along with SR and FoH, instead it sits about midway (and a large part of that is due to the fact that it is the resolution of the series and that for me the Epilogue really, really works)

[BFG]

This is quite long, and covers some posts over the past 20 pages or so...

 

 

@Suttree

Have a feeling like this response is going to be copy and pasted a fair amount as well.

 

"Yes clearly that's what it is. Didn't have anyting to do with the unpolished prose, blunt plotwork, wooden dialogue, "tell don't show" style or poor characterization. All that without even toching on the mistakes and structural issues. I'm just pissed Demandred came out of Shara."

 

Yes, some posters are annoyed at the above. Their are also a lot of people complaining that their isn't a LotR style ending letting people know how their lives were lived, or will never read the books again because Eg died. I doubt The Wolf was talking about everyone that doesn't like the book, but their are clearly some people that don't like the book because of the storyline (independent of prose/ structural stuff...)

 

 

@MarkD

Do you really think that he left in his notes a specific note that said "Do not reveal, or even talk about, the contents of Verin's letters to Galad or Alanna." Or "Do not even discuss or talk about Moiraine's three wishes in the Finn-world. And also ignore Lanfears wishes as well."

 

 

 

Most of these faults are on Brandon Sanderson. Maybe all of them. The only thing you can fault RJ for in the last book is the Epilogue and whether or not specific characters lived or died. Beyond that, we would need more details on notes left to see who is at fault with specific plot turns that we dont like.

 

Still don't know the interviews well enough, but I'm pretty sure that RJ did not want us to know the outcome of every wish/question asked of the Finns.

 

I also have massive problems with the statement that I've bolded - as a sentiment it just sits really uncomfortably with me. Why does the fact that Character A died when I din't want them to, while B lived but I hated them have to be the authors fault - this is RJs story and to a lesser extent BSs story to tell. Not sure how to articulate this, so I'll leave off here.

 

 

 

Mr Ares

Part of the problem is that RJ, while he did have plenty of scenes which could have been a bit shorter, could also convey information far more concisely, without losing anything. As I said, RJ took one chapter of KoD and made significant progress with Egwene. Brandon took a lot more to finish off her storyline - under him, it became more bloated. RJ could, at times, do things with great efficiency

 

Although I agree with this, the problem becomes (with this specific example), Eg spends 4 books trying to become a real Amrylin to the rebel AS, and 1 chapter that covers at best 2 weeks is supposed to be enough for the Tower AS to choose her? The extra stuff was needed here, and still barely made it believable (imo)

I think that if RJ hadn't died, three books would not have happened, and I think that even one book, while unlikely, was still within the bounds of possibility - Brandon wrote a lot more than RJ would have done. Part of the difference between the two authors comes in how they get their books to the length they do. And RJ, when he wanted to, could write far more efficiently that Sanderson does. And so the books became more bloated under the latter than they would have done under RJ.

 

Although with thought I think you may be right here - There likely wouldn't have been as many plot points, Perrins wolf training would likely have been axed as 1 example.

 

@Ryrin

I was again thinking of the deaths of Siuan and Gareth. All through the last books, Siuan has been either with Egwene or right next to Gareth. I think it's implausible that she just up and leaves Gareth (while he is under compulsion no less) decides that Mat is in danger (to my knowledge she does not have the talent of foretelling)sneaks up and saves Min while getting herself killed.

 

Too many one liners for deaths, major events etc.

 

?

Siuan is delivering a message to the Seanchan, realises the place is under attack and that Mat's in trouble - that he is at that point in time more important than she is... She didn't just randomly turn up :)

 

Mark D

jjstraka34

 

 

 

 

 

Gotta agree here, since several plot twists, while interesting and maybe even exciting, do just not make alot of sense. An example of the least of these is Egwene knowing Moridin's name, the other end being Mat not being tied to the Horn anymore, despite what we all know about Balefire.

 

I agree with you about Mat and the Horn. Egwene knowing Moridin's name is entirely Brandon though.

(I need to get to grips with the interview database)

 

I'm pretty sure that RJ is in interview as saying that the balefire was Mats death as relates to the prophecy live and die again a part of what is - if this is true then logically that's also when the break with the horn occurs. Logically I prefer the death in Rhuidean, but *shrugs*

 

 

 

@suttree

 

 

 

 

 

The last three books have been, in my opinion, significantly better than they 4 or 5 that came before them, rehabilitating certain characters who I had come to disdain and finally moving the story forward.

Well of course it moved the story along we where at a plae in the story arc where the set up was done and all the plot threads were being tied up(this was started in KoD btw). It is rather strange to compare those two very different moments in the story arc when talking about pace and "moving the story forward". Will Brandon be talented at that when he reaches a similar middle spot in his own Stormlight Archive? Only time will tell.

 

...

I also find it odd that many people seem to be comparing where we are in the story arc to perhaps the slowest middle-late set up portion of the series like CoT. They seem to act as if Jordan never was excellant with pace in books like TSR, tFoH etc. and ignore how KoD clearly had things pointed in the right direction. I've said it many times but it should be pretty interesting to see how Sanderson fairs during that comparable mid-late part of a long series that has given Martin and Jordan fits.

 

A few times you've responded to the statement that BS is better at pacing than RJ, when what was actually said was that tGS is faster paced than (eg) CoT. 2 different statements :) I think even you agree that GS is faster paced than CoT? As such it's a true statement, and not everyone who says it is claiming that's because BS is better at pacing than RJ (although unfortunately a great many (posters) are).

 

I also agree with Hack n Slash that a few characters are (redeemed isn't quite the right word) written more sympathetically(?).

 

Perrin's story arc is far more interesting post KoD but a large part of that is where we are in the story and the fact that we spend a lot of time with him in Towers, although the story would have changed under RJ as well, if you're right about content we would have spent much less time with him. I don't know if I'd care as much as I do about him as a character without that extra time. Faile is also written more sympathetically. Towers is literally the first time I've genuinely liked her as a person (barring a couple of points in SR). Eg has been hit and miss; after a brilliant GS and enigmatic Tom unfortunately Rand was also hit and miss in aMoL. I actually think Elayne was written really well in aMoL. Avi actually gets one of my favourite and stand-out scenes of the series in Towers...

 

I'm also surprised by some character 'jumps' (not sure how to word it) between the bulk of aMoL and the Epilogue. I barely noticed it with Mat (which greatly surprised me), but thought both Nyn and Rand suffered a pretty big bump, Rand's can be explained by the fact that this is literally the first time we've seen him when he hasn't been stalked by fades/going crazy from channeling/dreading his foretold death/tortured by Forsaken...

 

I'm not trying to get into a character dissection here so I'll leave off.

 

 

@MarkD

Am I the only one who thought Mat was more or less fine in this book? Minus a couple bumpy spots and some gratuitous use of bloody/flaming, Mat was fine. At the same time, he was all action in this book so there wasn't much room for it to go bad.

 

Light! Something we agree on! :)

 

I agree, he still wasn't quite Mat, but he was closer and in fact the 'jump' between some characters in the book and the Epilogue wasn't nearly as much for Mat as their was with some others (eg Nyn).

 

 

 

@Thrasymachus

What bugged me about the gateways is that their use was too inconsistent. Hi Androl, you can make a gateway to the inside of an active volcano, killing tens of thousands of Shadowspawn at once? That's awesome, and good job saving Elayne's butt with it outside Cairhein. Wtf are you doing running around trying to spy on dreadlords at Merrilor instead of spraying lava all over the bad guys?

 

Although I can agree with this to an extent, what happened at Cairhien was a fairly unique situation, where the Good guys were surrounded at the top of a hill, and the only people below them were bad guys, so no chance of hitting the good guys... Equally well, those 3 gateways tired him out loads and finally they needed the seals so couldn't risk breaking them until they were ready.

 

I agree with the general gist of what you say however, but although it's a good weapon it's not the only weapon (and for channelers without Androls talent it's not the best weapon).

 

 

 

 

That's even longer than I thought...

[gregweum]

Like others have said, while reading AMoL I never felt immersed in the world, which for me is one of the strengths of the series.

 

Ditto.  The entire series felt like watching a movie at a theater.  The ending felt like watching a made-for-TV movie while folding laundry.

[Trevor Wilson]

Im doing a reread right now of AMOL because i flew through it too fast the first time.

 

I do understand some of the reservations that some have about immersion, i can remember being about 1/5 into the book and being underwhelmed myself- though i think that may have been due to the MASSIVE anticipation

 

But i think BS had an immense task, trying to tie together so many loose ends

 

And i think he did a good job, if you think about how many books there have been and how much characterization we have had already, i think less characterization this book is forgivable.

 

I still loved it, but then i love sandersons writing anyway and realize im in a minority there.

 

I guess everyone looks for different things in fantasy... untill WOT id only read LOTR (and loved it as a child).

 

WOT got me reading other fantasy - but unlike 99% of other fantasy fans i lost interest in GRRM series.

[flinn]

Im doing a reread right now of AMOL because i flew through it too fast the first time. I do understand some of the reservations that some have about immersion, i can remember being about 1/5 into the book and being underwhelmed myself- though i think that may have been due to the MASSIVE anticipation But i think BS had an immense task, trying to tie together so many loose ends And i think he did a good job, if you think about how many books there have been and how much characterization we have had already, i think less characterization this book is forgivable. I still loved it, but then i love sandersons writing anyway and realize im in a minority there. I guess everyone looks for different things in fantasy... untill WOT id only read LOTR (and loved it as a child). WOT got me reading other fantasy - but unlike 99% of other fantasy fans i lost interest in GRRM series.

 It is hard not to lose interest in GRRM series. It seems to be turning into comics at this point.

[flinn]

 

 

 

 

 

Basically it all boils down to

 

Why did RJ have to die?!! why?!!

 

It's truly amazing that TGS was the best book out of all three!!!

 

 

The quote that comes to mind is: 

 

I win again, Lews Therin. 

 

 

Brilliant! Abolutely brilliant

 

 

 

>> 

 

 

http://io9.com/5975831/the-wheel-of-time-rolls-to-a-stop-io9s-review-of-a-memory-of-light

 

"Personally, I think Sanderson probably gave us a better end than Jordan actually would have,"

 

I think I agree.

 

 

 

He's either smoking some powerful stuff or he's plainly insane.

It's become pretty obvious that some people don't mind the drop in writing quality or mistakes. They are looking for fan gratification and an all action finale mostly. Which is fine of course(and there is plenty of in genre work like that out there), it's just never been what the WoT was about.

 

I also find it odd that many people seem to be comparing where we are in the story arc to perhaps the slowest middle-late set up portion of the series like CoT. They seem to act as if Jordan never was excellant with pace in books like TSR, tFoH etc. and ignore how KoD clearly had things pointed in the right direction. I've said it many times but it should be pretty interesting to see how Sanderson fairs during that comparable mid-late part of a long series that has given Martin and Jordan fits.

 

 Out of 10 books you keep using 2 examples of how RJ can pace....

 

 Most of RJ's books were drawn out, very descriptive, and could have trimmed tons.

 

Yes, FoH and SR were the two best books in the series. It dropped off drastically after.

[Trevor Wilson]

why dont my linebreaks work...grrrr!

 

I thought GRRM was supposed to be the master according to many?..

i just stopped caring what happened about half way through book 4.

 

Anyway im curious to hear more about peoples fave/least fave parts of amol?

[decrepid dragon]

 

 

Im doing a reread right now of AMOL because i flew through it too fast the first time. I do understand some of the reservations that some have about immersion, i can remember being about 1/5 into the book and being underwhelmed myself- though i think that may have been due to the MASSIVE anticipation But i think BS had an immense task, trying to tie together so many loose ends And i think he did a good job, if you think about how many books there have been and how much characterization we have had already, i think less characterization this book is forgivable. I still loved it, but then i love sandersons writing anyway and realize im in a minority there. I guess everyone looks for different things in fantasy... untill WOT id only read LOTR (and loved it as a child). WOT got me reading other fantasy - but unlike 99% of other fantasy fans i lost interest in GRRM series.

 It is hard not to lose interest in GRRM series. It seems to be turning into comics at this point.

I only read the series at the beginning of the year, and I barely remember anything about it other than Stannis, who is awesome, and Dany (not what she does, just that I raged at her character). I really enjoy Sandersons writing as well, so I have quite enjoyed the last 3 books (minus very jarring modern language), just missed the little details that RJ put in.

[Sarlic]

Summary of 38 page thread on quality. (this post is your one-stop shop!)

 

Some people like it; Some people love it.

 

Some people dislike it; some people hate it.

 

Some people think RJ could finish it in 3 books; others think he could finish it in 1. Others think he couldn't finish in less than 5 or 6.

 

(end of summary of thread)

 

At the end of the day, though -- reading a book or series like this is a very personal experience, and everyone went into the final trilogy (and final book) with different expectations. I think certain people in this thread have been critical of Brandon from day one and would sooner shoot themselves than admit that anything he did here was remarkable.

 

And rest-assured - for all its flaws, that Brandon was able to finish this series as well as he did was remarkable. It may not have been as polished as everyone would have liked, sure, but it's impressive that he was able to get as much right as he did.

 

Myself, I'm quite satisfied. I went into this with my eyes open, with a quite simple (and in my opinion, obvious) realization: No one, ever, -- EVER -- would be able to finish this series like Robert Jordan could have. The unavoidable result of having a different author finish a series is that characters would feel wrong; subtle plots that we fan-nerds focus on would not be wrapped up; even non-subtle plots would get lost in the mix. (For the latter, I can't blame BS. I would blame the editing team.)

 

There was no way, even if RJ wrote this, that we'd all be satisfied.

 

But the fact that this series, as a whole, inspires so much debate is a testament to the quality of the work and the strength of the story. We all hung in to the end; it may not be the end we all wanted, but it's the ending the story deserved -- because RJ envisioned it that way. And to those people (martyrs) who would rather have had the notes published with no ending, GO TO BED, please. If you felt the wheels were coming off at TGS, then you shouldn't have continued reading.

 

This series deserved an ending, not a compendium of notes, half-written exerpts, followed by the epilogue. I mean, come on.

[Sarlic]

Grrrr double post

[Suttree]

@BFG

 

You're right but many people have been posting that Sanderson was needed to step in and save the series when that obviously wasn't true after KoD Was reacting more to that overall feeling.

 

@Finn

 

Nah those are just the most obvious examples when making a general statement and you're missing the point. Apologies if I wasnt clear. KoD was equal in pace to TgS and ToM despite not being as far along in the story arc as I've also called out a few times. TDR and couple others work just as well in place of tFoH and TSR along these lines. The point is RJ could do it and it was the story arc that slowed things down(along with the story getting away from hin late, which changed after CoT), which we have seen happen in other long series I might add. It is ridiculous to compare the climax that Brandon worked on to tPoD-CoT which most propenents of Brandon's pace are doing here.

 

As for trimming even a book like CoT for RJ was so filled with set up and forshadowing that any trim would need a massive re-write. With Brandon's bloat and filler you could literally trim whole sections with out losing a thing. In relation to those two books TSR and tFoH and a drop, the issue is the writing quality never dropped. TPoD has some of the best writing in the entire series. You never had the first draft style prose, timeline issues, blunt plotwork or numerous mistakes of these last three books.

[BFG]

@Suttree - I agree the series didn't need saving by BS.

 

Is there any chance you could outline some of the structural issues with aMoL, I think I understand them with ToM (but probably not entirely), does it mostly hang on the BT timeline still, or is there more to it? Thanks

 

EDITED spelling

[flinn]

@BFG

 

You're right but many people have been posting that Sanderson was needed to step in and save the series when that obviously wasn't true after KoD Was reacting more to that overall feeling.

 

@Finn

 

Nah those are just the most obvious examples when making a general statement and you're missing the point. Apologies if I wasnt clear. KoD was equal in pace to TgS and ToM despite not being as far along in the story arc as I've also called out a few times. TDR and couple others work just as well in place of tFoH and TSR along these lines. The point is RJ could do it and it was the story arc that slowed things down(along with the story getting away from hin late, which changed after CoT), which we have seen happen in other long series I might add. It is ridiculous to compare the climax that Brandon worked on to tPoD-CoT which most propenents of Brandon's pace are doing here.

 

As for trimming even a book like CoT for RJ was so filled with set up and forshadowing that any trim would need a massive re-write. With Brandon's bloat and filler you could literally trim whole sections with out losing a thing. In relation to those two books TSR and tFoH and a drop, the issue is the writing quality never dropped. TPoD has some of the best writing in the entire series. You never had the first draft style prose, timeline issues, blunt plotwork or numerous mistakes of these last three books.

 We will have to agree to disagree on this then. IMO there was way too much that needed to be trimmed from the 3 middle books. I actually liked the last two written by Jordan but mostly because of Mat. In fact, when I reread, I usually stick to Mat chapters through those books.

[MarkDiLillo]

Summary of 38 page thread on quality. (this post is your one-stop shop!)

 

Some people like it; Some people love it.

 

Some people dislike it; some people hate it.

 

Some people think RJ could finish it in 3 books; others think he could finish it in 1. Others think he couldn't finish in less than 5 or 6.

 

(end of summary of thread)

 

At the end of the day, though -- reading a book or series like this is a very personal experience, and everyone went into the final trilogy (and final book) with different expectations. I think certain people in this thread have been critical of Brandon from day one and would sooner shoot themselves than admit that anything he did here was remarkable.

 

And rest-assured - for all its flaws, that Brandon was able to finish this series as well as he did was remarkable. It may not have been as polished as everyone would have liked, sure, but it's impressive that he was able to get as much right as he did.

 

Myself, I'm quite satisfied. I went into this with my eyes open, with a quite simple (and in my opinion, obvious) realization: No one, ever, -- EVER -- would be able to finish this series like Robert Jordan could have. The unavoidable result of having a different author finish a series is that characters would feel wrong; subtle plots that we fan-nerds focus on would not be wrapped up; even non-subtle plots would get lost in the mix. (For the latter, I can't blame BS. I would blame the editing team.)

 

There was no way, even if RJ wrote this, that we'd all be satisfied.

 

But the fact that this series, as a whole, inspires so much debate is a testament to the quality of the work and the strength of the story. We all hung in to the end; it may not be the end we all wanted, but it's the ending the story deserved -- because RJ envisioned it that way. And to those people (martyrs) who would rather have had the notes published with no ending, GO TO BED, please. If you felt the wheels were coming off at TGS, then you shouldn't have continued reading.

 

This series deserved an ending, not a compendium of notes, half-written exerpts, followed by the epilogue. I mean, come on.

 

Honestly, how do you find it impressive that he was able to finish the series?  He was told the ending and major plot pieces, he was given an outline, and he had access to a team of people who would dig into RJ's notes for him to answer any question he could possibly have.  He was literally given a mostly finished story and told to fill in the gaps and write some major scenes himself.

 

Yet somehow he managed to contradict the first 11 books dozens of times, leave out major plot pieces (that he setup himself), break WoT world rules, and completely disregard the timeline the series was operating in.  You find this impressive work?  Really?

 

I enjoyed parts of the book too, but don't confuse casual enjoyment with critical acclaim.

 

Brandon Sanderson just botched the ending to WoT so badly that he practically ensured no author will ever allow another to finish their series for them postumously again.  This is damn near a case study on failure.

[Suttree]

 

 

@BFG

 

You're right but many people have been posting that Sanderson was needed to step in and save the series when that obviously wasn't true after KoD Was reacting more to that overall feeling.

 

@Flinn

 

Nah those are just the most obvious examples when making a general statement and you're missing the point. Apologies if I wasnt clear. KoD was equal in pace to TgS and ToM despite not being as far along in the story arc as I've also called out a few times. TDR and couple others work just as well in place of tFoH and TSR along these lines. The point is RJ could do it and it was the story arc that slowed things down(along with the story getting away from hin late, which changed after CoT), which we have seen happen in other long series I might add. It is ridiculous to compare the climax that Brandon worked on to tPoD-CoT which most propenents of Brandon's pace are doing here.

 

As for trimming even a book like CoT for RJ was so filled with set up and forshadowing that any trim would need a massive re-write. With Brandon's bloat and filler you could literally trim whole sections with out losing a thing. In relation to those two books TSR and tFoH and a drop, the issue is the writing quality never dropped. TPoD has some of the best writing in the entire series. You never had the first draft style prose, timeline issues, blunt plotwork or numerous mistakes of these last three books.

We will have to agree to disagree on this then. IMO there was way too much that needed to be trimmed from the 3 middle books. I actually liked the last two written by Jordan but mostly because of Mat. In fact, when I reread, I usually stick to Mat chapters through those books.

To be clear Flinn a book like CoT could be trimmed and be much the better for it. It would take a massive re-write to do however because of the foreshadowing, set up etc.(which ironically RJ considered before going with a quicker release). In TgS, ToM and AMoL you could cut sections of filler and not lose a single thing.

[Trevor Wilson]

Personally i blame a lot of the problems with the final battle on jordan. Im very grateful for the series which ive loved, but i honestly believe that

 

I think we had far too much 'power inflation' with channelers especially, trollocs and (to a lesser extent) fades went from fearsome terrible creatures to pure fodder, then lots and lots of channelers were revealed.

 

I think it made a realistic and good 'final battle' which wasnt simply lots of channeling very difficult.

 

But jordan wrote some beautiful scenes too..the one i remember most was NOT a battle scene, or cleansing the taint.

 

It was the 'goodbye letter' perrin wrote to faile when he thought he was going to die.

[MountaineerWV]

 

Brandon Sanderson just botched the ending to WoT so badly that he practically ensured no author will ever allow another to finish their series for them postumously again.  This is damn near a case study on failure. 

How was the ending botched? A lot of people, me included, are quite happy with the ending. Also, I believe that RJ himself wrote the ending, and a large part of the last third or so of aMoL.

[MarkDiLillo]

 

 

Brandon Sanderson just botched the ending to WoT so badly that he practically ensured no author will ever allow another to finish their series for them postumously again.  This is damn near a case study on failure. 

How was the ending botched? A lot of people, me included, are quite happy with the ending. Also, I believe that RJ himself wrote the ending, and a large part of the last third or so of aMoL.

 

The only part RJ wrote was the epilogue.  Everything else was 98% Brandon Sanderson.

 

As for how it was botched - just reread the thread for specific details (or read some of the other threads around here).  No sense in me repeating what everyone has already said and repeated numerous times.

[Atheose]

 

 

Brandon Sanderson just botched the ending to WoT so badly that he practically ensured no author will ever allow another to finish their series for them postumously again.  This is damn near a case study on failure. 

How was the ending botched? A lot of people, me included, are quite happy with the ending. Also, I believe that RJ himself wrote the ending, and a large part of the last third or so of aMoL.

This is how I feel.

 

RJ had a lot of time to start outlining things before he died. Unless someone has an interview quote that says otherwise, I'm VERY confident that RJ outlined most of the last three books (especially the Last Battle), and Brandon just wrote the words. If you're upset with specific things that happened you should be blaming RJ; if you're upset at the writing and wording, you should be blaming Sanderson. It wouldn't take long for RJ to sit down and write a quick outline for each character:

 

Siuan: "She sticks around Bryne for most of the battle, then she leaves him at one point which goes against Min's viewings. She then chooses to go back into the burning tent to save Mat, but dies in the process."

Gawyn: "He marries Egwene, decides to use the Bloodknives ring, and dies trying to kill Demandred."

Galad: "Mat gives him a copy of the fox medallion and tells him to kill as many channelers as he can. After finding Galad dying, he tries to fight Demandred too, but also loses."

 

I find it very hard to believe that RJ wouldn't do this. 

[Trevor Wilson]

Am i the only one who feels RJ may have opened up far too many sub plots to resolve?

[Suttree]

RJ had a lot of time to start outlining things before he died. Unless someone has an interview quote that says otherwise, I'm VERY confident that RJ outlined most of the last three books (especially the Last Battle), and Brandon just wrote the words. If you're upset with specific things that happened you should be blaming RJ; if you're upset at the writing and wording, you should be blaming Sanderson. It wouldn't take long for RJ to sit down and write a quick outline for each character:

 

Siuan: "She sticks around Bryne for most of the battle, then she leaves him at one point which goes against Min's viewings. She then chooses to go back into the burning tent to save Mat, but dies in the process."

Gawyn: "He marries Egwene, decides to use the Bloodknives ring, and dies trying to kill Demandred."

Galad: "Mat gives him a copy of the fox medallion and tells him to kill as many channelers as he can. After finding Galad dying, he tries to fight Demandred too, but also loses."

 

I find it very hard to believe that RJ wouldn't do this. 

On the contrary we know for fact that isn't true. The notes were far less robust than originally thought. For instance in many places it would be "character a starts here and ends here" and Brandon would have to make up everything in between. It is no where near as detailed as you claim above. Brandon has stated he had to create well over 50% of the material from scratch with almost no guidance.

[flinn]

 

RJ had a lot of time to start outlining things before he died. Unless someone has an interview quote that says otherwise, I'm VERY confident that RJ outlined most of the last three books (especially the Last Battle), and Brandon just wrote the words. If you're upset with specific things that happened you should be blaming RJ; if you're upset at the writing and wording, you should be blaming Sanderson. It wouldn't take long for RJ to sit down and write a quick outline for each character:

 

Siuan: "She sticks around Bryne for most of the battle, then she leaves him at one point which goes against Min's viewings. She then chooses to go back into the burning tent to save Mat, but dies in the process."

Gawyn: "He marries Egwene, decides to use the Bloodknives ring, and dies trying to kill Demandred."

Galad: "Mat gives him a copy of the fox medallion and tells him to kill as many channelers as he can. After finding Galad dying, he tries to fight Demandred too, but also loses."

 

I find it very hard to believe that RJ wouldn't do this. 

On the contrary we know for fact that isn't true. The notes were far less robust than originally thought. For instance in many places it would be "character a starts here and ends here" and Brandon would have to make up everything in between. It is no where near as detailed as you claim above. Brandon has stated he had to create well over 50% of the material from scratch with almost no guidance.

 Isnt that what he just did? That was far from robust... That is saying starts here, ends here in one sentence. How can it be less than that?

[Suttree]

 

 

 

 

 

RJ had a lot of time to start outlining things before he died. Unless someone has an interview quote that says otherwise, I'm VERY confident that RJ outlined most of the last three books (especially the Last Battle), and Brandon just wrote the words. If you're upset with specific things that happened you should be blaming RJ; if you're upset at the writing and wording, you should be blaming Sanderson. It wouldn't take long for RJ to sit down and write a quick outline for each character:

 

Siuan: "She sticks around Bryne for most of the battle, then she leaves him at one point which goes against Min's viewings. She then chooses to go back into the burning tent to save Mat, but dies in the process."

Gawyn: "He marries Egwene, decides to use the Bloodknives ring, and dies trying to kill Demandred."

Galad: "Mat gives him a copy of the fox medallion and tells him to kill as many channelers as he can. After finding Galad dying, he tries to fight Demandred too, but also loses."

 

I find it very hard to believe that RJ wouldn't do this.

On the contrary we know for fact that isn't true. The notes were far less robust than originally thought. For instance in many places it would be "character a starts here and ends here" and Brandon would have to make up everything in between. It is no where near as detailed as you claim above. Brandon has stated he had to create well over 50% of the material from scratch with almost no guidance.

Isnt that what he just did? That was far from robust... That is saying starts here, ends here in one sentence. How can it be less than that?

Wait what? Atheose implied each step was outlined. We know that wasn't even remotely the case and Brandon had to make large sections and how things happened up from scratch.

 

"I'm VERY confident that RJ outlined most of the last three books (especially the Last Battle), and Brandon just wrote the words"

[Atheose]

 

 

 

 

 

 

RJ had a lot of time to start outlining things before he died. Unless someone has an interview quote that says otherwise, I'm VERY confident that RJ outlined most of the last three books (especially the Last Battle), and Brandon just wrote the words. If you're upset with specific things that happened you should be blaming RJ; if you're upset at the writing and wording, you should be blaming Sanderson. It wouldn't take long for RJ to sit down and write a quick outline for each character:

 

Siuan: "She sticks around Bryne for most of the battle, then she leaves him at one point which goes against Min's viewings. She then chooses to go back into the burning tent to save Mat, but dies in the process."

Gawyn: "He marries Egwene, decides to use the Bloodknives ring, and dies trying to kill Demandred."

Galad: "Mat gives him a copy of the fox medallion and tells him to kill as many channelers as he can. After finding Galad dying, he tries to fight Demandred too, but also loses."

 

I find it very hard to believe that RJ wouldn't do this.

On the contrary we know for fact that isn't true. The notes were far less robust than originally thought. For instance in many places it would be "character a starts here and ends here" and Brandon would have to make up everything in between. It is no where near as detailed as you claim above. Brandon has stated he had to create well over 50% of the material from scratch with almost no guidance.

Isnt that what he just did? That was far from robust... That is saying starts here, ends here in one sentence. How can it be less than that?

Wait what? Atheose implied each step was outlined. We know that wasn't even remotely the case and Brandon had to make large sections and how things happened up from scratch.

 

"I'm VERY confident that RJ outlined most of the last three books (especially the Last Battle), and Brandon just wrote the words"

I definitely didn't mean that every step was outlined, just the important parts. Like in the example I gave regarding Galad: Mat gives him the medallion, Galad loses to Demandred, but survives to give the medallion to Lan. Those are essentially the three things that matter, but leaves BOATLOADS of room for Brandon to need to fill-in for Galad. 

 

I find it very hard to believe that RJ wouldn't do a similar outline of the important parts of each character's arc for the final books.