Quality Discussion Thread

[Mr. Micawber]

You know I agree 110%...

 

Hence the F

[MarkDiLillo]

I'm rather new to is board - is there some particular instance you could direct me to which is the basis for these remarks about Sanderson's attitude towards criticism?

 

There are some twitter streams I was looking over, but I dont know if the people involved would like if I just posted it to the public.  The ones involved in this will read the thread sometime in the next 24 hours though and if they want to direct you then I'm sure they will post a link.  Sorry mate :)

[Barid Bel Medar]

I'm allowing this to go because it is - apparently- based on things Brandon has said, and it has remained civil. 

 

However, just want to warn everyone not to let this devolve into a session of attacking Brandon personally. Let's keep it to what has been written and said, and the reactions, and not just a "burn a Sanderson effigy" party. 

[Mr. Micawber]

Baird Bel, I don't have any problem with the man. I don't think Mark does either. I would be utterly unsurprised to find he himself was immensely frustrated by the time he got to the last one - perhaps explaining why it got pushed back - and it's not like he didn't write some good scenes. Rather, as I said, the work as a whole is a failure. And in a project like this, it would be grossly unfair to *solely* lay that failure at Brandon's feet

[Razumikhin]

I'm allowing this to go because it is - apparently- based on things Brandon has said, and it has remained civil. 

 

However, just want to warn everyone not to let this devolve into a session of attacking Brandon personally. Let's keep it to what has been written and said, and the reactions, and not just a "burn a Sanderson effigy" party. 

 

Fair enough, I don't want my query to pull the thread in that direction. Consider it dropped!

[Barid Bel Medar]

As I said, you have done nothing wrong. It was just that the conversation could very well have headed down that path. I am not saying that you would have done so, or that you think so, just doing my job and trying to prevent something from blowing up into a big thing. (I have seen similar things happen on similar topics, there is always one poster that lights a flame) 

Edit: Razumikhin (that is bloody hard to spell) No need. I wasn't trying to stop discussion about it. Feel free to discuss it, it was just a general warning not to let it get out of hand. The topic itself is genuine. 

 

If it is something that has been recorded and legitimate, then I see it as fair ground to comment on it. If Brandon did indeed post similar thoughts, then it is fair that people are allowed to criticise these words, as he knew the consequences of posting them. In that respect, I totally agree. 

 

It was just my experience with these things leads me to conclude that while the posters originally involved in the debate may not intend to do so, someone manages to light a fire and unpleasantness ensues. 

 

Before that happens, I thought I'd just give a little warning. No official commands from me, just advice I suppose. 

[MarkDiLillo]

Baird Bel, I don't have any problem with the man. I don't think Mark does either. I would be utterly unsurprised to find he himself was immensely frustrated by the time he got to the last one - perhaps explaining why it got pushed back - and it's not like he didn't write some good scenes. Rather, as I said, the work as a whole is a failure. And in a project like this, it would be grossly unfair to *solely* lay that failure at Brandon's feet

 

Ya well I solely lay it at his feet. He managed the project, he wrote almost every word of the thing himself, and he had the biggest influence on how this thing turned out. Maybe there is some blame that can go to Team Jordan and maybe there is some that goes to RJ himself, but Brandon's name is on the thing and he is responsible for his own work despite any difficulties he ran into.

 

His book, his responsibility, and therefor the blame goes to him.

[jjstraka34]

 And in a project like this, it would be grossly unfair to *solely* lay that failure at Brandon's feet

 

Gotta agree here, since several plot twists, while interesting and maybe even exciting, do just not make alot of sense. An example of the least of these is Egwene knowing Moridin's name, the other end being Mat not being tied to the Horn anymore, despite what we all know about Balefire. 

[Duskfire]

I doubt anyone could have done any better. It would be downright hard to take over someones magnus opus like this, especially one that is so detailed and enriched as the Wheel of Time universe. Would have been next to impossible to keep track of all the characters and various sub-plots and whatnot. So Sure, Sanderson wasn't perfect, and maybe by the end he ran out of steam, but I sincerely doubt that many other authors would have a) done the undertaken at all considering the amount of work involves and b) would have been able to do it any better.

 

Considering some of the posts in here, it seems like its a bit of a thankless job to.

[flinn]

 I also feel that there would be no recognized writer out there with the intimacy and knowledge of Wheel of Time to have done much better.

 

There might be some WoT fanatics who would have a better understanding and more detailed knowledge but they wouldnt have the skills.

 

Any way you turn this it is a lose/lose situation. I have to place much, much more blame on the Team than I could ever place on Brandon.

 

They have lived the WoT for many, many years now, if they couldnt spot all the errors and work it out, why does anyone think any other writer could have done better?

 

It would have been the same way. They may have nailed other parts, but they would have left as many bad parts and as many holes. Team Jordan would have missed those as well and put out an inferior product.

 

 If there is any blame, other than on the disease that took Jordan, than I would be looking at Team Jordan.

 

They were the battle commanders, Harriet the General, and Brandon just a mercenary swinging a sword. How do you blame the mercenary when the commanders approved everything he did?

[MarkDiLillo]

 

 And in a project like this, it would be grossly unfair to *solely* lay that failure at Brandon's feet

 

Gotta agree here, since several plot twists, while interesting and maybe even exciting, do just not make alot of sense. An example of the least of these is Egwene knowing Moridin's name, the other end being Mat not being tied to the Horn anymore, despite what we all know about Balefire. 

 

I agree with you about Mat and the Horn.  Egwene knowing Moridin's name is entirely Brandon though.

[Mr. Micawber]

Mark, I blame him for the vast majority of the bad writing. But the editorial team signed off on this stuff. I'm very upset that they would be so...I really think amateurish or fan boyish are the only words that work here. It's like their reaction was "OMG lotz of the battlezzzzz. Lol isn't awesome another Trolloc gets pwneddddd!"

[MarkDiLillo]

Hopefully we'll hear the truth soon, but my understanding is that they tried to push back and tell him to give it another go and he did not respond positively.  All heresay though - if theres truth to that I'm sure we will hear about it in the near future.

[jjstraka34]

 If there is any blame, other than on the disease that took Jordan, than I would be looking at Team Jordan.

 

They were the battle commanders, Harriet the General, and Brandon just a mercenary swinging a sword. How do you blame the mercenary when the commanders approved everything he did?

 

 

I so do not want to do this, but they had infinitely more intimate knowledge about this world, and the more glaring errors should not have gotten past the rough draft phase. I feel bad even saying it.  

[Suttree]

Considering some of the posts in here, it seems like its a bit of a thankless job to.

Yes surely the increased exposure, leverage of the brand association and huge boost of sales to his own series pale in comparison to some disgruntled fans on message boards.

 

As for the "mercenary" comment, while Team Jordan plays a role here to phrase it like that is pretty ridiculous. It's an author's job to put his foot down on a finished product if he doesn't believe it's ready. The mess that was ToM for instance should never have been published in the form that it was.

[Mr. Micawber]

Hopefully we'll hear the truth soon, but my understanding is that they tried to push back and tell him to give it another go and he did not respond positively.  All heresay though - if theres truth to that I'm sure we will hear about it in the near future.

 

If this happened, I move from feeling understanding frustration, to feeling quivering rage

[jjstraka34]

Hopefully we'll hear the truth soon, but my understanding is that they tried to push back and tell him to give it another go and he did not respond positively.  All heresay though - if theres truth to that I'm sure we will hear about it in the near future.

 

How does one get information like this??

[Barid Bel Medar]

Mark, I blame him for the vast majority of the bad writing. But the editorial team signed off on this stuff. I'm very upset that they would be so...I really think amateurish or fan boyish are the only words that work here. It's like their reaction was "OMG lotz of the battlezzzzz. Lol isn't awesome another Trolloc gets pwneddddd!"

 

I have to agree with this. In his own books (WoK I liked a lot) this kind of thing is not an issue. He writes his own materials and world far better than the WoT, which is to be expected.

 

Perhaps it is the glaring differences between Brandon and RJ. RJ was a soldier, he fought and killed in battle, he was a older man when he started writing the story. 

 

Brandon however, is still young, he hasn't experienced war or killing. In many ways, compared to RJ, he is a child. It isn't exactly his fault, but the effect is that it comes off as a downplayed version of the WoT. 

[Mr. Micawber]

Considering some of the posts in here, it seems like its a bit of a thankless job to.

Yes surely the increased exposure, leverage of the brand association and huge boost of sales to his own series pale in comparison to some disgruntled fans on message boards.

 

As for the "mercenary" comment, while Team Jordan plays a role here to phrase it like that is pretty ridiculous. It's an author's job to put his foot down on a finished product if he doesn't believe it's ready. The mess that was ToM for instance should never have been published in the form that it was.

 

Yes, because clearly a couple of pseudonymous posters are the bellwethers for the book buying public! I'm so glad to know we're so influential, Suttree! Doesn't that feel awesome?

[MarkDiLillo]

 

Hopefully we'll hear the truth soon, but my understanding is that they tried to push back and tell him to give it another go and he did not respond positively.  All heresay though - if theres truth to that I'm sure we will hear about it in the near future.

 

How does one get information like this??

 

Like I said, it is all heresay.  So dont worry about it until someone with actual understanding of what happened says something.  :)  I could be 100% incorrect.

[MarkDiLillo]

 

Mark, I blame him for the vast majority of the bad writing. But the editorial team signed off on this stuff. I'm very upset that they would be so...I really think amateurish or fan boyish are the only words that work here. It's like their reaction was "OMG lotz of the battlezzzzz. Lol isn't awesome another Trolloc gets pwneddddd!"

 

I have to agree with this. In his own books (WoK I liked a lot) this kind of thing is not an issue. He writes his own materials and world far better than the WoT, which is to be expected.

 

Perhaps it is the glaring differences between Brandon and RJ. RJ was a soldier, he fought and killed in battle, he was a older man when he started writing the story. 

 

Brandon however, is still young, he hasn't experienced war or killing. In many ways, compared to RJ, he is a child. It isn't exactly his fault, but the effect is that it comes off as a downplayed version of the WoT. 

 

The problems that are the most glaring are the flat out lack of inclusion of major cliffhangers and story arcs from his own book though.  ToM left us with Verin's letters, Alanna, and Moiraine cliffhangers that BRANDON SANDERSON wrote!  They were not minor cliffhangers either; they were implied to be very important to the ending of the book.  They were just entirely forgotten in this book.  Alanna was tossed in casually as an afterthought in the Pit of Doom sequence, and that's it.

[Mr. Micawber]

Mark, I blame him for the vast majority of the bad writing. But the editorial team signed off on this stuff. I'm very upset that they would be so...I really think amateurish or fan boyish are the only words that work here. It's like their reaction was "OMG lotz of the battlezzzzz. Lol isn't awesome another Trolloc gets pwneddddd!"

 

I have to agree with this. In his own books (WoK I liked a lot) this kind of thing is not an issue. He writes his own materials and world far better than the WoT, which is to be expected.

 

Perhaps it is the glaring differences between Brandon and RJ. RJ was a soldier, he fought and killed in battle, he was a older man when he started writing the story. 

 

Brandon however, is still young, he hasn't experienced war or killing. In many ways, compared to RJ, he is a child. It isn't exactly his fault, but the effect is that it comes off as a downplayed version of the WoT. 

 

This.

 

There is an *enormous* amount of the Wheel of Time that I believe may only be understood in the context of the United States's involvement in Vietnam and Mr. Rigney's (like thousands of other former young men) attempts to come to grips with what was done, by his own hand.

 

For the larger military stuff, Jordan's education at the Citadel was probably more important.

 

But I note again, Jordan battle scenes are deliberately understated and focus more on what's going on inside the soldiers' heads in those periods of respite that are present in every battle. He almost intuitively understood it was fruitless to try and capture the mindlessness and animalistic, atavistic brutality and chaos of fighting.

 

This is not repeated enough: the man who was Jordan killed. He killed a *lot* of people in a brutal war. And what is more, he was exceptionally good at it. Helicopter gunners in the 60s and 70s don't win the decorations he won otherwise. If you don't think that is why Jordan's battle scenes were actually less "awesome" than Sanderson's crap, I have a bridge in Ho Chi Minh City to sell you.

 

 

[Barid Bel Medar]

A fair point. 

 

To play devils advocate so to speak, it could be that Brandon left them untouched because he didn't think he could pull it off satisfactorily. Like Loial at the Great Stump. I would say that even RJ would have avoided writing that. 

 

Similarly, perhaps he felt that it was better left untouched, that he felt it was better left off-screen or unexplained. 

 

Perhaps RJ left notes explaining that these plot points should be left open. 

 

Although, as you pointed out, if any of this were the case, they should not have been made to seem important in ToM. 

[Treebeard]

 

 

/..:/ And so the books became more bloated under the latter than they would have done under RJ.

could we begin using " probably" or some other word that dose´t specifies that RJ per automatic would write it ( amol ) in the way we would expect  ( not that i am doubting that but all they same ) . it would save us some very irritating and endlessly repeating discussions

No. To overqualify ones opinions is an indicator they've been poorly phrased (even if not as bad as the utterly worthless turn of phrase "IMO" - if you have to tell people what's opinion and what isn't, you need to improve your writing, not stick in an acronym). If anything, I've already thrown around too many probablys.

could you clearify that please ? ( I have some problem to understand what in my post you are critizasing )

[Mr. Micawber]

By the way, this is why I get intensely furious with people here gushing about the "COOL ACTION" scenes. That was *never* how Jordan wrote his battles!