A Song of Fire & Ice Book Discussion Thread (Up To Dance With Dragons)

[The Fisher King]

Yeah, when that poster above called her ''Bernie'' - well, all I can do is BOW DOWN - L O O O L! ! !

 

She will always be ''Bernie'' to me from now on!!! :-)

 

I missed that update above about GRRM announcing he was almost done - if so, that would be sweeter than Texas Tea!!! :-)

 

(but i'll believe it when i see it, lol. I firmly believe his passion for this series is gone - at least for writing the novels; I know he probably loves the tv adaption).

 

 

Fish

[Red2111]

agreed Song *snuggles*

 

Thanks for starting this thread, Red! I'm on a re-read right now and loving every second of it. Are you re-reading atm or only on A Feast for Crows in total?

 

Our favorites are pretty similar. I've been an Arya fanboy since the beginning. I hope to see her have some truly epic magical assassin stuff after her journey. And I hope she gets to Jon... or Bran. Think of the Starks with a potentially Faceless Man and Warg under their rankings. Sure, they may not seem like much, a cripple and a little girl... but I'd be willing to bet that in Winds of Winter these will be two of the most deadly people in Westeros.

 

I like Coldhands being Benjen and the explanation being that he's a Stark makes sense. In my re-read its becoming clearer and clearer that there is something special about the Starks; it seems everyone in the North, beyond the wall or no, knows of them. While this is natural with King Beyond the Wall and all that, it still seems strange. I just read the scene where whats her name (Osha?) gets taken by Robb after trying to kill Bran, so maybe that's why I think it. The Starks are special, magically speaking.

 

I like Tyrion and Jaime. Both are fantastic to read and while I'd not like Jaime if I knew him in reality (cockiness isn't something I admire for starters) I can get past that and just enjoy his PoV. I don't like reading Cersei's PoV though. It just grates on me.

 

i'm glad i could find this thread versus starting a new one before the swithc there was a SoF&I thread people were chating in, but i couldn't find that one at all, so i dug up this.

 

i'm on my first read of the series, as is Bubba. we're having to share the Feast now though which is fine, ToM should be comming up soon so my plot for gettign the new WoT book is comming to a head *grins*

 

 

call me a lush, but i like Jamies cockiness. and he comes by it for good cause considering how good of a swordsman he was, so it wasn't like he was just cocky to be cocky. bubba dislikes him for the same reason as you and Song though lmao so him and i have this convo a bit *grins*

 

i actually like reading Cersies POV's becuase i get to laugh at her for all the stupidity she thinks. see she thinks she's an evil mastermind like Asha, but unlike Asha, Cersie will fall flat on her face and i love reading that. it gives me a since of satisfaction to watch that happen to a character like Cersie, cause i know women like her IRL.

 

 

Apparently, Martin has informed his publisher that he only has five more chapters to write, and all those five has bits already written. So, the entire manuscript (around 1500 pages) should be done before the endof the year.

 

*does a major jig and hops & hollars*

 

 

Yeah I mentioned that in the other thread. I think that's partly why Red bumped this one.

 

yep it's better than starting what would have been probably the 1000th thread on this series

 

 

I nearly spit out my drink when I read Red call Breane, "Bernie". Don't know if was intentional or not on your part, but hilarious none the less.

 

Anyway, some of my favs froms this series...Jon, Tyrion, Jaime, Robb (I still get seriously upset when I think about the Red Wedding), Davlos. I hate Cersei with a passion, but I agree with others about her pov's bein really good. I couldn't stand Dany's pov's until the third book, but I'm likin what I've read so far that Martin has released for the next book.

 

I only got into this series this year, but it has surpassed The Black Company as my third fav book series.

 

Yeah, when that poster above called her ''Bernie'' - well, all I can do is BOW DOWN - L O O O L! ! !

 

She will always be ''Bernie'' to me from now on!!! :-)

 

hehehe it's what i call her in my head. i had been pronouncing her name as Bur-Nean so i shortened it to bernie for the ease of typing and not mis-spelling her name. i like the nick name on her, it's still female but fits her masculanity glad you guys liked it

[Werthead]

The current state of play on ADWD from recent updates:

 

* ADWD is currently about 1,500 MS pages (manuscript pages) in length.

* ADWD is 5 chapters from completion. Those 5 chapters exist in varying states of drafts and partial chapters.

* Those 5 chapters may take ADWD over Bantam's informal page limit of 1,530 MS pages (the size of A STORM OF SWORDS). Either material will have to move into TWoW (THE WINDS OF WINTER, Book 6 in the series) or Bantam will give the book a few more pages.

* At this time we only have confirmation of 100 MS pages and four chapters moving from ADWD into TWoW.

* The other 90%+ of ADWD is page-edited, typeset, locked and ready to go. The new maps and the appendices are also all locked and ready to go. The cover art was ready years ago.

* Bantam hope for a 3 month turn-around on the book. But Voyager in the UK are still expected to release the book earlier, even if it's only days or a week or two compared to the months for the previous volumes.

* Bantam really want the book done by Christmas so they can announce the release date after New Year's Day. That gives GRRM 6-7 weeks to finish the book after returning home in early November. Martin himself has notably not commented on the situation, so it is not known if that is doable. However, he finished the last few chapters of the previous two volumes in a frenzy of last-minute writing, so it is possible.

 

All going well, if Bantam get their wish and GRRM hands the book in before Christmas, it should hit the shelves in April or May. From a marketing perspective that is doubly tempting, as that will be slap bang in the middle of the first season of the TV series airing on HBO.

[Red2111]

as big as SoS's JOY!!!

 

now if it's as good as SoS's i'll be doubley pleased SoS is my fav book in the series so far *nods*

 

i figured the stuff already written woudl have already been edited and stuff, it just makes sense with there being a 6 year gap they should just expand the page limitation and release the entire volume in one piece instead of moving chapters to the next book. it might prevent an arc point from being reached and force him to go back and remove a character entirely fromt eh volume. alot can happen to his charcaters in one chapter

[hotpocket2006]

Thanks Werthead for giving us all that info

 

*snuggles Red back* I didn't know you weren't done with the series. I'm sorry if I spoiled anything for you. *nervously checks what she wrote*

[The Fisher King]

The current state of play on ADWD from recent updates:

 

* ADWD is currently about 1,500 MS pages (manuscript pages) in length.

* ADWD is 5 chapters from completion. Those 5 chapters exist in varying states of drafts and partial chapters.

* Those 5 chapters may take ADWD over Bantam's informal page limit of 1,530 MS pages (the size of A STORM OF SWORDS). Either material will have to move into TWoW (THE WINDS OF WINTER, Book 6 in the series) or Bantam will give the book a few more pages.

* At this time we only have confirmation of 100 MS pages and four chapters moving from ADWD into TWoW.

* The other 90%+ of ADWD is page-edited, typeset, locked and ready to go. The new maps and the appendices are also all locked and ready to go. The cover art was ready years ago.

* Bantam hope for a 3 month turn-around on the book. But Voyager in the UK are still expected to release the book earlier, even if it's only days or a week or two compared to the months for the previous volumes.

* Bantam really want the book done by Christmas so they can announce the release date after New Year's Day. That gives GRRM 6-7 weeks to finish the book after returning home in early November. Martin himself has notably not commented on the situation, so it is not known if that is doable. However, he finished the last few chapters of the previous two volumes in a frenzy of last-minute writing, so it is possible.

 

All going well, if Bantam get their wish and GRRM hands the book in before Christmas, it should hit the shelves in April or May. From a marketing perspective that is doubly tempting, as that will be slap bang in the middle of the first season of the TV series airing on HBO.

 

Wert, I luv ya ever so very deeply and eternally, and I trust you implicitly, but how many times have we heard this from them? Its beyond familiar at this point. The little boy can only cry wolf so many times before the people start disbelieving, and eventually tune it out all together.

 

 

Fish

[Tom Sawyer]

So, ADWD is only a few months away? Again?

[Red2111]

Thanks Werthead for giving us all that info

 

*snuggles Red back* I didn't know you weren't done with the series. I'm sorry if I spoiled anything for you. *nervously checks what she wrote*

 

lol nah you didn't ruin anything for me. it's my own fault for entering into the thread if anythign got spoiled i'm good at spoiling twists in this series meself though, as i'll get so engrossed in one character i'll end up flipping through and just reading their chapters to see what happened to them. totally spoiled alot of twists & wtf moments in SoS's that way lmao

[Hallow]

Thanks Werthead for giving us all that info

 

*snuggles Red back* I didn't know you weren't done with the series. I'm sorry if I spoiled anything for you. *nervously checks what she wrote*

 

lol nah you didn't ruin anything for me. it's my own fault for entering into the thread if anythign got spoiled i'm good at spoiling twists in this series meself though, as i'll get so engrossed in one character i'll end up flipping through and just reading their chapters to see what happened to them. totally spoiled alot of twists & wtf moments in SoS's that way lmao

 

I do something similar. When there is a lot of references to past events in a book, ie. Roberts rebellion in ASOIAF, I can't help myself and end up going online and reading about it, and in the process spoiling some twist related to the actual story.

[Werthead]

Wert, I luv ya ever so very deeply and eternally, and I trust you implicitly, but how many times have we heard this from them? Its beyond familiar at this point. The little boy can only cry wolf so many times before the people start disbelieving, and eventually tune it out all together.

 

True, although the level of detail that accompanies the latest news is unprecedented in ADWD's case. I admit this year has been very frustrating, even moreso than previous years, as I met up with GRRM in Belfast last November when the book was at 1,200 MS pages and he seemed adamant that the book would be out, or at least done, by now. The reasons why it isn't are more annoying as they seem to be technical rather than artistic (apparently an attempt to get as much info into the book without making it so long it will be split in half, enraging the fanbase).

 

As it stands, British fans who are planning to wait for the paperback should be aware that ADWD will very likely be split in paperback like ASoS, so it should be cheaper to get the tradeback or even the hardcover (especially if the big sellers discount ADWD as much as they do other big hardback releases) than wait a year for the paperbacks.

[The Fisher King]

I still feel that it would not surprise me if ADWD is never published. It would also surprise me not at all if, if ADWD IS published, rather than writing the last two or three originally-planned volumes (and I don't know his contract stipulations on this) he will rush out a shoddy mess of a single final volume to tie up loose ends.

 

ADWD's structure and make-up, that is the chapters in it and where it starts and where it ends, is apparently now locked in place, so ADWD can't be the final book in the series even if wants it to be, and the storylines certainly continue into Book 6, THE WINDS OF WINTER (which has several chapters already extant for it, but then again we've heard that before). Whether Book 6 eventually appears, or is another five or six years down the line, remains to be seen, of course.

 

All because this nightmare decade of ADWD, his disgust with his fans over ADWD, his loss of passon for this series and his fresh desires for other progects, including TV, all playing significant factors.

 

GRRM certainly isn't disgusted with the fanbase as a whole. He's even fairly understanding of some of the criticism (no matter which way you try to swing it, the book is four years late, and he knows that well). What he gets annoyed by are people telling him how to write the book (especially non-authors), people engaging in personal insults, people saying he's about to die 'like Robert Jordan' (Jordan was a friend of Martin's, so that's a pretty personal attack) and people accusing him of lying. 90% of fans don't do that, of course, so it's not as massive an issue as it may appear from the online discussion in some quarters.

 

Do you feel that GRRM has completely now lost his passion and enthusiasm for ASOIAF and its completion?

 

No. I think he wants to bring the story to a conclusion in as high-quality and timely a manner as possible. However, there have been moments during the writing of the last two books where the nuts-and-bolts, getting people around into the right places, have been dispiritingly complex, maybe even tedious. I'm pretty sure he'd far rather be writing about Dany invading Westeros in blood and fire rather that working out [character name redacted]'s travel itinerary as he heads from the Free Cities to Slaver's Bay, but that stuff needs to be done for the bigger events to make sense.

 

Certainly if there was a time when his enthusiasm was at an all-time low I think that is two or three years past, when the book wasn't working at all no matter what he did. The HBO adaptation and the recent strong progress he has made on the book has seemed to relight his fire and enthusiasm for the series, which will hopefully carry us the rest of the way through the books.

[Elend]

I've just been doing my re-read, finished Game of Thrones an hour or so ago (starting on Clash of Kings like right now, just wanted to post this first and perhaps work on my own novel a bit)...

 

And I noticed something crazy. I think Bran knows Jon's lineage. Remember his dream when Ned died? He mentioned that they talked about Jon, or at least hinted at it. And we know Bran's dreams are real.

 

Am I crazy? Am I brilliant? Am I late to the party?

 

ETA:

 

I still feel that it would not surprise me if ADWD is never published. It would also surprise me not at all if, if ADWD IS published, rather than writing the last two or three originally-planned volumes (and I don't know his contract stipulations on this) he will rush out a shoddy mess of a single final volume to tie up loose ends.

 

ADWD's structure and make-up, that is the chapters in it and where it starts and where it ends, is apparently now locked in place, so ADWD can't be the final book in the series even if wants it to be, and the storylines certainly continue into Book 6, THE WINDS OF WINTER (which has several chapters already extant for it, but then again we've heard that before). Whether Book 6 eventually appears, or is another five or six years down the line, remains to be seen, of course.

 

All because this nightmare decade of ADWD, his disgust with his fans over ADWD, his loss of passon for this series and his fresh desires for other progects, including TV, all playing significant factors.

 

GRRM certainly isn't disgusted with the fanbase as a whole. He's even fairly understanding of some of the criticism (no matter which way you try to swing it, the book is four years late, and he knows that well). What he gets annoyed by are people telling him how to write the book (especially non-authors), people engaging in personal insults, people saying he's about to die 'like Robert Jordan' (Jordan was a friend of Martin's, so that's a pretty personal attack) and people accusing him of lying. 90% of fans don't do that, of course, so it's not as massive an issue as it may appear from the online discussion in some quarters.

 

Do you feel that GRRM has completely now lost his passion and enthusiasm for ASOIAF and its completion?

 

No. I think he wants to bring the story to a conclusion in as high-quality and timely a manner as possible. However, there have been moments during the writing of the last two books where the nuts-and-bolts, getting people around into the right places, have been dispiritingly complex, maybe even tedious. I'm pretty sure he'd far rather be writing about Dany invading Westeros in blood and fire rather that working out [character name redacted]'s travel itinerary as he heads from the Free Cities to Slaver's Bay, but that stuff needs to be done for the bigger events to make sense.

 

Certainly if there was a time when his enthusiasm was at an all-time low I think that is two or three years past, when the book wasn't working at all no matter what he did. The HBO adaptation and the recent strong progress he has made on the book has seemed to relight his fire and enthusiasm for the series, which will hopefully carry us the rest of the way through the books.

 

This entire post is incredibly confusing to me on many levels.

 

At first I read it as being posted by Werthead, replying to Fisher King's points, and I was going to make a reply w.r.t to it.

 

Then I realized its apparently Fisher King quoting Werthead. I thought "Hey, that's strange" to myself because the writing style between the two of ya are quite different. I mean, it even has (for me at least) Fisher King outright arguing the exact opposite of what he'd argued a little while back.

 

On top of that its been edited. By Werthead.

 

I think DM may have had some technical issues here. Either that or Werthead used Mod powers to reply directly to Fisher King's points in the post, and got the formatting mixed up somehow.

[Werthead]

That was my fault, sorry, I edited the post instead of replying to it by accident :( For those with modpower (which I rarely exercise here) the 'EDIT POST' and 'REPLY TO POST' buttons are right next to each other and I screwed up.

[The Fisher King]

That was my fault, sorry, I edited the post instead of replying to it by accident :( For those with modpower (which I rarely exercise here) the 'EDIT POST' and 'REPLY TO POST' buttons are right next to each other and I screwed up.

 

 

Thanks for getting back by here and sharing your thoughts, Wert. As always -- I appreciate it.

 

 

Fish

[Lynchgrinch]

I just read A game of thrones, i liked it...but it just seemed a bit to "rapey" to love...what with incest, graphic 13 year old sexual escapades and gues all round sexual frustration of the highest order....

 

maby i'm judging a bit too early? i've hardly heard a bad thing being said about the books but these are just my thoughts.

 

Loved the whole Direwolf plot type thingy and realy hope that there is more to come from that neck of the woods. it was so sad when Lady got killed off, i almost cried :(

 

Saying that though, i HATE sansa with a flaming passion.

 

Jon is great and i realy love the imp/dwarf guy Tyrion. He's realy well written IMO.

 

hoperfully i'll pick up book 2 soon ish.

[hotpocket2006]

I just read A game of thrones, i liked it...but it just seemed a bit to "rapey" to love...what with incest, graphic 13 year old sexual escapades and gues all round sexual frustration of the highest order....

 

maby i'm judging a bit too early? i've hardly heard a bad thing being said about the books but these are just my thoughts.

 

Loved the whole Direwolf plot type thingy and realy hope that there is more to come from that neck of the woods. it was so sad when Lady got killed off, i almost cried :(

 

Saying that though, i HATE sansa with a flaming passion.

 

Jon is great and i realy love the imp/dwarf guy Tyrion. He's realy well written IMO.

 

hoperfully i'll pick up book 2 soon ish.

 

I think you are judging too early. It's my fav series if you couldn't tell.

 

I also used to hate Sansa, almost as much as I hate Faile, which is a lot, but now she is one of my fav characters, and I can't wait to see where her story arch goes in future books.

 

I cried a lot that first book, and in one of the other books I cried even harder, but I won't tell you which one.

[Lynchgrinch]

 

They better not kill off Ghost or something....I'll start reading the rest of the series just as soon as ToM is done and re-read about 40 times ;)

[Elend]

I don't recall many young people involved in sexual situations in A Game of Thrones really. I guess you could have meant the statements by Joffrey towards Sansa? Or the pedophiles stalking Arya? Oh wait... I guess you meant Dany? Yeah, you have a point there. I kinda wish most of the main cast could get about 4-5 years added to them... oh, you lost timeskip... where have you gone?

 

The Jaime/Cersei thing is there, of course, but its presented as unhealthy and wrong in later books. Wait until you see Joffrey ruling for awhile to get a feeling for what I mean, and when you get Jaime's point of view. He's actually pretty awesome in his own way.

 

Tyrion is a much loved character, one of my favorites. He features prominently throughout the entire series. As far as direwolves go, Bran is more about that than Jon, but Jon does have his own stuff going on.

 

Sansa... well, Sansa is Sansa. I don't like her points of view that much. I don't like Catelyn's either. Sansa's improve... Catelyn's, well, you'll see with that. Its pretty awesome.

 

The first three books are largely about the War of Five Kings and Feast deals with the fallout of it, I believe. The really magical stuff is just starting up from what I can make out, and I'm excited for it.

[Lynchgrinch]

I don't recall many young people involved in sexual situations in A Game of Thrones really. I guess you could have meant the statements by Joffrey towards Sansa? Or the pedophiles stalking Arya? Oh wait... I guess you meant Dany? Yeah, you have a point there. I kinda wish most of the main cast could get about 4-5 years added to them... oh, you lost timeskip... where have you gone?

 

The Jaime/Cersei thing is there, of course, but its presented as unhealthy and wrong in later books. Wait until you see Joffrey ruling for awhile to get a feeling for what I mean, and when you get Jaime's point of view. He's actually pretty awesome in his own way.

 

Tyrion is a much loved character, one of my favorites. He features prominently throughout the entire series. As far as direwolves go, Bran is more about that than Jon, but Jon does have his own stuff going on.

 

Sansa... well, Sansa is Sansa. I don't like her points of view that much. I don't like Catelyn's either. Sansa's improve... Catelyn's, well, you'll see with that. Its pretty awesome.

 

The first three books are largely about the War of Five Kings and Feast deals with the fallout of it, I believe. The really magical stuff is just starting up from what I can make out, and I'm excited for it.

 

 

Ohhh, you've got me integued now!

 

The whole Dany plotline is JUST PLAIN WRONG. She is 13 in the first book, 13! I don't realy wan't to read about a 13 year old getting doen and dirty with some crazy warlord who must be about 30 years older than her!!! It's not conducive to healthy head immages, the discription is riddiculous!! The end of every Dany POV chapter is just a 2 paragraph sexualy explicit escapade!

 

Also, the Jaime/Cersei thing is just...WRONG?

 

All and all the words "Rape" and "incest" and sutchlike come up WAAYYY too often. It's like the whole book is driven by perverted sexual thoughts, naaat good.

 

The book is well written enough for me to want to keep reading, though. So that i will!

 

I agree that all the characters could have a few more years put on to them, for exaple i think of Jon and Robb being my own sort of age 18-19 ish but then i'm forced to remember that they are actual 14 going on 15....it's a bit weird. But like i said there is enough hooks to get me reading it all.

 

The others were realy cool, as was the whole "northern wall" arc. I wonder what is REALY beyond the wall?

 

Another thing i never realy liked was the super fast passage of time, being used to WoT and everything being describes so precicely...it takes like 5 books for a year to pass! in ASoIaF it seems more like 6 months+ per book.

 

I felt so sorry for Bran too, when he fell :(

And thats realy weird too, bran's POV does not think like a 7YO should.

 

...looking up i've made alot of criticism havent i?

lol, i'll keep reading though! i promise you!

[Elend]

Jon and Robb are about 16 IIRC. Remember, Robb is about to become a man legally, which is 16 years of age in Westeros. Jon thinks that if he's legitimate then he'd come before Ned's other kids. So Jon is likely about the same age, probably a couple months less, than Robb. He could be older as well if certain theories are true, but considering a certain thing Robb proclaims w.r.t Jon, I'd say Robb is slightly older.

 

I always had the impression that Dany's husband was around 25ish. I base this on the fact that he's in his prime of life, a great warrior, the Dothraki respect strength, he's only now getting a first wife, etc. He may even only be around 20. I'm not sure if this helps with the squick of it and I can't deny that Dany does have sexual thoughts (doesn't act on them). Just keep in mind she's a teenager and that's how they actually think. Hormones and all that.

 

You'll see what's beyond the Wall soon enough. Wait until you meet Coldhands

 

The thing to remember about the incest is that the Lannisters are not the nicest of people. Joffrey is not the nicest of children. Jaime and Cersei are portrayed as in a very unhealthy relationship, based in Cersei's own narcissism (the only one good enough to be with her is the person who she considers exactly like her). Jaime... I'm tellin' ya, he has a very interesting point of view when you get it. Very interesting character. Cersei, not so much.

 

For what its worth rape doesn't happen that often in Westeros (on screen at least). Many characters commit rape but its usually not shown on-screen (that I remember) and they skew villainous.

[Red2111]

okay, aside from the facts that Elend rings up, i feel the need to put my 2 cents in on this

 

The whole Dany plotline is JUST PLAIN WRONG. She is 13 in the first book, 13! I don't realy wan't to read about a 13 year old getting doen and dirty with some crazy warlord who must be about 30 years older than her!!! It's not conducive to healthy head immages, the discription is riddiculous!! The end of every Dany POV chapter is just a 2 paragraph sexualy explicit escapade!

 

you have to think about the time they are in. for us, this would be the equivalent of the Dark Ages, where women were expected to be married and give birth at 13 years of age. you'll find through sansa's POV that this is the way of thinking as well.

 

also, Danny's escapades with Droco are very important to build her character, including the sex stuff; and really there are only two sex scenes, the other stuff is just perverse thoughts that 13 year olds would have.

 

you also have to take into account how Danny's brother has treated her, heck he twists her nipple when we first meet both their characters for crying out loud, and basically says "i'd sell you out as a whore if it got me my kingdom". it's no wonder with a brother like that the child is perverse in her thinking and really wants to please her husband in the only way she can. seeing as they can't communicate, the only way she has to form a link with her husband is through sex.

 

 

Also, the Jaime/Cersei thing is just...WRONG?

 

i'm not going to argue that incest isn't wrong, it is and disgustingly so. but as an author you have to keep in mind the influences and beliefs your seperate characters hold and not interject your own beliefs of right & wrong into them. GRRM trys & accomplishes this very well, as he writes with the rules of the real world so well that this world of his is just so much more real than that of the WoT *hides*

 

once you get to book 3, you'll begin to really understand why this relationship isn't veiwed as wrong by these two characters; in the 4th book, you get all the pieces and you kinda go "ah, so thats why!" but right now, you should understand one thing.

 

Cersie & Jamie grew up under the rule of the Dragons (i'm not even going to attemtp to spell the last name lmao) and in the dragons family it was everyday practice for brother to marry sister. Danny was supposed to marry Reaghar(sp) if you recall. the people didn't exactly embrace this idea, they more of accepted it and overlooked it. With Tywin being the Hand for most of Jamie & Cersei's lives, well you can see how these two children would think there is nothing wrong with doing what the royalty do, especially since Lannisters are better than everyone else and their dad pretty much rules the kingdom (in their thinking anyways lmao)

 

then you through in the character traits, like Cersei's narcissim and other influences which drove those two to become sexual involved ... well you can understand why their characters think there's nothign really wrong with it to begin with.

 

*mumbles about it being all Cersei's fault*

 

 

All and all the words "Rape" and "incest" and sutchlike come up WAAYYY too often. It's like the whole book is driven by perverted sexual thoughts, naaat good.

 

GRRM trys to emulate the real world, and in the real world during a war rape happens and is used as a tool in some cases. in the real world, sex drives alot of what people do. like Elend said, rape happens off screen in this series; the only time i can think of in the entire series is near the end of GoT's with Danny when Droco sacks the village.

 

again though, you have to think in terms of real life. think back to when the vikings sailed the earth, in their culture they would sack a town and take the woman as a prize; it's part of real life and war, and is why its included. to give the series that much more of a real feel. you think of the main groups which do the raping in this series and remember that its more about power than sex; its understandable why the author would include it with certain groups. it's not something that is likable, but at the same time alot in life isn't likable. when you try to emulate real life in your writing (as this author does) your goign to have to include some very unlikable characters and things.

 

 

The book is well written enough for me to want to keep reading, though. So that i will!

 

i'm glad you will, it is a great story with great characters. just keep this in mind as you come across unlikable characters who are very evil. this author knows how to really give it to the bad guys and make karma come aroudn and bite them in the ass

 

 

I agree that all the characters could have a few more years put on to them, for exaple i think of Jon and Robb being my own sort of age 18-19 ish but then i'm forced to remember that they are actual 14 going on 15....it's a bit weird. But like i said there is enough hooks to get me reading it all.

 

see i disagree. this book is based in a mideavil setting; life expectancy isn't very long and even in our own history not to long ago, men came of age at 16 and women were expected to give birth once they began menstrating (or their moon blood started comming, as this author puts it)

 

 

The others were realy cool, as was the whole "northern wall" arc. I wonder what is REALY beyond the wall?

hehehehe, it's great. keep reading, you'll love it thoguh don't read too fast, as once you get to book 4 & realize theres not another book to read yet it's kinda disappointing.

 

 

Another thing i never realy liked was the super fast passage of time, being used to WoT and everything being describes so precicely...it takes like 5 books for a year to pass! in ASoIaF it seems more like 6 months+ per book.

 

i like the pace this series travels on. i think back to the whole hunt for faile and wish sometimes Jordan sped up the time lines as well

 

 

I felt so sorry for Bran too, when he fell :(

And thats realy weird too, bran's POV does not think like a 7YO should.

 

i cried when he fell.

 

as for his POV, it starts out as an imature POV and for the most part he keeps his childhood fancies in his mind and a stubbornness you get with a bull headed child whose feelign sorry for himself. but with him not "thinking" like a 7yo, you have to think of his circumstances. he's been left in charge of Winterfell, with a sibling to take care of and is now a cripple (which is basically worse than a death sentence in the middle ages) he's been forced to grow up and try to become what he thinks is a man. it's not fair, true; but again you have to look at the factors of influence on the character to see why he acts the way he does.

 

 

...looking up i've made alot of criticism havent i?

lol, i'll keep reading though! i promise you!

 

lol. i think if you remind yourself of the time & era this book series you'll be fine

[Hallow]

I think all the "wrong" things in Asoiaf makes for an interesting read. Personally I find books with characters that are 100% moral 100% of the time to be a bit bland and boring. The incest and sex livens things up a bit.

[Lynchgrinch]

i totaly see where you're coming from guys, and it does all make sence. I supose all these things would be rife in "dark ages" sort of time period, but it don't make it any nicer to read!

 

Now that i've finished ToM i'm gonna re-read WoT and then get onto the rest of G.R.R Martin's stuff. Can't wait!!

 

I'll let you guys know how my read comes along, it shouldn't be long before i'm finished with everything that has so far been writted in aSoIaF, i'm a damn fast reader. And there is NOTHING that can slow me down, if i like the book.

 

Like i've already said, i wasn't 100% impressed with aGoT but i still finished it in under 24 hours. I'm a book freak, what can i say :)

[Rufae]

My problem with aSoIaF, is that there really aren't any good characters. I don't mean that they are not well written (they are) but every character has a reason for the reader to hate them. Characters who don't either get killed or ran through the emotional/physical ringer until they are destroyed. Sometimes I think that GRRM brings his anti-war philosphy into his writing - exaggerating the horrors of war but ignoring the good side of people. It is like his motto is: "Only the Good die young." or "Good guys finish last." It gets annoying sometimes.

[Rinkai]

To make reading Sansa's POV chapters more fun, I used a mental rape-o-meter to gauge her situation. Between Joffery, Cleagan, Tyrion, and Little Fingle, the thing was on defcon 5 nearly the whole time.