The death of Rand al'Thor

[DragonSpawn]

I have often wonderred if a physical or spiritual death is meant. As we see the book progress, Lew Therin inside Rands head is taking a more and more demanding role. In the beginning just a voice, he as of book 6 at times completely takes over Rands body pushing his own spirit aside.

It is even described as Rand having to wrest control of his own body back. The most extreme example was at the beginning of Dumai's wells, where he angrily mutterred he was the Lord of the Morning and how dare they do this to him. Also he did unto the Aes Sedai holding him a punishment considered worse then death, something as we know from Rand's treatment of women he would never do. Also in KoD he relinquishes control of his body to Lews Therin, so that he can use his "forgotten" weaves to deal with the horde of Trollocs.

But even in more subtle things such as writing the letter to the Salidar Aes Sedai was clearly at the hand of Lews Therin seeing how it was dripping with contempt and ridicule. It is also noted by the Aes Sedai reading it that the last line, the signing of the letter seemed to be tortured and forced.

 

 

There are many more instances in the book, and with each book the incidents increase where Rand is seemingly no longer in full control of his body.

So I am theorizing could his death be meant in a spiritual way, he was the rebirth of Lews Therin Telamon and now the spirit of the original Dragon is nesting itself into the body of his rebirth. Could Lews Therin before the Last Battle or during it achieve complete and permanent control over the body.

 

We know as Rand is the Dragon Reborn he is supposedly the rebirth of the Dragon, but could it merely be that two spirits were implanted into the body. Rand and that of the Dragon. Rand being the normal Aeil of no importance, Lews having died but being the saviour of mankind and the victor over the DO in the Age of Legends. To truely be the rebirth of the Dragon, shouldn't the spirit of Lews Therin be in control of the vassal body?

 

Hence couldn't Rand through dieing, and Lews through then being truely born again into this world fullfill the prophecy?

 

This would also solve any complications of Min, Elayne and Avhienda since Lews is not the man they loved nor does he love them, he is a spirit of Ages long gone by, destined to save the world yet again.

 

Also any conflict between the DO and Lews would be much more of a personal ending conflict then Rand vs the DO. Simply because through the Taint, the DO killed all Lews had, his family, his persona, his whole world.

 

Or rather unlikely? And if so how would one explain the presence of Lews Therin in the body of Rand? So which of the two in Rand is now the rebirth of the Dragons spirit? Was the spirit then duplicated and we have 2x Lews Therin in a body, the old one and a fresh rewoven one?

[trakand01]

Hmmm... interesting. I have always thought that he has Lews Therin in his head simply... because. I have also always believed that it means a physical death - I dont know why. Mat has many different memories, from lives past, I think that LT will become one of these memories in Rand's head - or he will rid himself of him completely, thus eradicating the hold that Lanfear has over him - I certainly do not believe that either Lanfear or Moiraine died when they went through the doorway (I havent read book 11 - I believe Moiraine may return?)

[Toenail]

Yeah, I agree that the death is meant in a spiritual way as opposed to the phisical. However, I think that Rand is going to end up getting over his whiney-emo kid attitude with the 3 girls and then figure out how to deal with the sickness he is suffering from, then wtfpwn LTT and then go win Tarmon Gidon

[Physics is fun]

Im gonna go with spiritual because Min states that she has a vision of him and another man merging and one is going to die. Rand believes it is lews therin soul that will die

[Darkloki]

I beleive it will be a little of both. the death physically, but brought back by elayne and Avi, through the power. The way Rand brought Mat back when he was hung. The spiritual part will ofcourse be from merging with LTT to fight and use the Dragon's weaves at TG. Though when he dies physically, it could rid Rand of Lews in his head, and possibly even the sickness if Elayne and Avi happen to notice it, and decide "well, since we are bringing him back to life, might as well fix this too".

[RobertAlexWillis]

The way Rand brought Mat back when he was hung.

 

Mat didn't die when he was hung. Medically speaking, he was unconscious because of asphyxia-induced hypoxia. He would have been dead in another minute or two, but when Rand cut him down, he was not.

 

Lews Therin leaving his head would be the death of Lews Therin, not Rand al'Thor. If Lews Therin's death can be counted as "death", then it means "death" is defined as the end of a facet personality, and therefore, Lews Therin's would not count for Rand. If death is the death of the body, then Lews Therin's would not count for Rand. Either way, Lews Therin's "death" does not meet the requirement.

 

Rnad is going to die in the physical sense. In fact, he's already dying. The wound in his side is killing him.

 

I had a thought on how he might be resurrected though. If Nynaeve, or Elayne and Aviendha, can figure out how the Dark One transmigrates souls, then after he dies and does what he must to Heal the Bore (which would take care of the wound in his side that is killing him), then they could snatch his soul, and stuff it back in his body, or possibly someone else's. (As a side note this is something of a shift in positions for me ... until now I've maintained as an opinion that no human could transmigrate a soul ... Luckers will be chuckling if he reads this.) In fact, that may be why Alivia has to "help him die". Perhaps she knows a way to kill him without actually damaging his body.

 

Rand has a plan though. I think he knows what he's going to ask Alivia to do. We only know what two of his questions to the Aelfinn were:

 

How do I cleanse the taint?

 

How can I win the Last Battle and survive?

 

I think the third was:

 

How can live by dying?

 

So I think he knows what to do, we just haven't seen him thinking about it yet.

[shred_jackson666]

mat will accidently fire his cannon and take rands head off!

[Safia al-Maaz]

How shrewd....

 

I never actually thought about Rand's death being mental. It would be a twist, wouldn't it? And RJ is known, and has stated before, he does what the reader does not expect. So who knows? I'm hoping he lives, personally. I'm a sucker for a happy ending. ;)

[FelixA9]

Another way to think if it is like this. Take Birgette for instance. She has been born with many names but she is always Birgette. Once she was born with the name "Marion" (I think) but "Marion" died while Birgette still lives. Who is Rand? Rand is Lews Terin without his old memories. Rand is literally Lews Terin reborn and "Rand al Thor" is nothing more than the "John Doe" that's been assigned to a victim of amnesia so to speak. "Rand" will die and LTT will be there in "Rand's" body but it's not so much a death in the literal sense as it is Rand becoming aware of who he really is and all his memories coming back. At that point "Rand" becomes nothing but a memory but he really hasn't left.

[Safia al-Maaz]

Hmm... I've thought about that before. The idea about Rand being ripped out of TAR after his death has been tossed around as well, much like Birgitte was.

[FelixA9]

Hmm... I've thought about that before. The idea about Rand being ripped out of TAR after his death has been tossed around as well' date=' much like Birgitte was.[/quote']

 

Wouldn't be Rand getting ripped out though but LTT. "Rand" is just the latest set of clothes LTT is wearing.

[Guest Fire Lord]

If you ignore that LTT is insane, then he's more apt to deal with the DO. However the idea of Rand being put aside for LTT makes me uneasy. So he's just a body to house LTT until the proper moment? I'd think RJ has him there for more than that.

 

I can only hope RJ'll not pull a GRRM stunt. I liked Robb a lot, and when he died I first thought I was dreaming. I had to go back and read the passage again, but I think I was even more confused than before. My mind simply could not grasp the whole thing.

 

:oops: sighs :oops:

 

Back to the topic, I had always believed it'd LTT who'd bit it, but as I understand it he's just another facet of Rand's soul (though the way he sees him you would think it's a completely different man).

How can Rand leave LTT in his body when they're the same soul?

 

Though I could pray till I pass out for Rand not to die (I like him too much), I no longer have much hope. Just like RAW said, he's already dying, and small chances of Nyn performing miracles on him.

[Cocaloch]

Actually though, even LTT is another body the soul of the Dragon is using. They are all the same person just different personalities based on memories where they grew up and what they learned.

[FelixA9]

If you ignore that LTT is insane' date=' then he's more apt to deal with the DO. However the idea of Rand being put aside for LTT makes me uneasy. So he's just a body to house LTT until the proper moment? I'd think RJ has him there for more than that.

 

I can only hope RJ'll not pull a GRRM stunt. I liked Robb a lot, and when he died I first thought I was dreaming. I had to go back and read the passage again, but I think I was even more confused than before. My mind simply could not grasp the whole thing.

 

:oops: sighs :oops:

 

Back to the topic, I had always believed it'd LTT who'd bit it, but as I understand it he's just another facet of Rand's soul (though the way he sees him you would think it's a completely different man).

How can Rand leave LTT in his body when they're the same soul?

 

Though I could pray till I pass out for Rand not to die (I like him too much), I no longer have much hope. Just like RAW said, he's already dying, and small chances of Nyn performing miracles on him.[/quote']

 

Rand IS LTT. It's no different than Birgette having all those different lives. Same person.

[Albert]

Rand IS LTT. It's no different than Birgette having all those different lives. Same person.

 

Rand is Rand. LTT is LTT. They share the same soul but that doesn't mean that they are the same person.

[Simple Gleeman]

We know as Rand is the Dragon Reborn he is supposedly the rebirth of the Dragon' date=' but could it merely be that two spirits were implanted into the body.[/quote']

 

This is a good question. But Lews Therin couldn't have been there since birth because he was at Falme when the Horn was used.

 

It is my understanding that there is only one soul for each hero and that each soul waits in Tel'aran'rhiod when not in use. The Horn of Valere would then call them from Tel'aran'rhiod briefly. So a hero that had been born - or ripped out - wouldn't be called by the Horn because their soul would be in use. So if the Horn were used now, Birgitte, Gaidal Cain, and Lews Therin would not be there. This is assuming the apparations that are called by the Horn are the actual souls and not some sort of copy or illusion or otherwise, and that Lews Therin's soul is in Rand's body - either the only one or one of two.

 

However, if thats true, Rand and Lews Therin can't be of the same soul.

[okstate91]

My Theory: Rand isnt just a reincarnation of LTT, he is his own person, because there would be no fighting over control of the power/body between rands consciousness and LTTs. It is like two souls stuffed into the same body, because LTT already 'failed' the world once (in this i mean he didnt completely destroy the DO.) So they gave Rand all of LTTs abilities and Ltt's soul to give him knowledge but he will be making the actual decisions, in hope that this time Rand will destroy the DO, so they dont have to go through all this crap again.

[Fryn]

Rand has always been LTT reborn. In Falme all of the heroes bound to the horn talk to Rand as if he is LTT because to them they can see the soul that is attached to the body no matter what the current name of the person is. LTT was never there as an apparation, because when the horn was blown he was already born into the pattern inside Rand. In the battle of Falme there is one line where Arthur Hawking says something like, "You could tell him Lews Therin, if you could just remember when you wore skin." This line is directed at Rand and not an apparation of LTT, further anytime the heroes talk to Rand they call him Lews Therin.

 

When the heroes are born out into the pattern they aren't born as the same person. Bridgette explains a lot of this while she talks about having many lives, names, apperances, and experiences (It even hints that she is Maid Marrian from Robin Hood).

 

LTT and Rand have had vastly different backgrounds an experiences in their lives. To me the interaction between Rand and LTT is more to do with 2 life experinces talking to each other even though the base unit of both is the same persona.

[Simple Gleeman]

Rand has always been LTT reborn. In Falme all of the heroes bound to the horn talk to Rand as if he is LTT because to them they can see the soul that is attached to the body no matter what the current name of the person is. LTT was never there as an apparation' date=' because when the horn was blown he was already born into the pattern inside Rand. In the battle of Falme there is one line where Arthur Hawking says something like, "You could tell him Lews Therin, if you could just remember when you wore skin." This line is directed at Rand and not an apparation of LTT, further anytime the heroes talk to Rand they call him Lews Therin.

[/quote']

 

Ah you're right. I was confusing Artur Hawking with Lews Therin.

[DragonSpawn]

Rand has always been LTT reborn. In Falme all of the heroes bound to the horn talk to Rand as if he is LTT because to them they can see the soul that is attached to the body no matter what the current name of the person is. LTT was never there as an apparation' date=' because when the horn was blown he was already born into the pattern inside Rand. In the battle of Falme there is one line where Arthur Hawking says something like, "You could tell him Lews Therin, if you could just remember when you wore skin." This line is directed at Rand and not an apparation of LTT, further anytime the heroes talk to Rand they call him Lews Therin.

 

When the heroes are born out into the pattern they aren't born as the same person. Bridgette explains a lot of this while she talks about having many lives, names, apperances, and experiences (It even hints that she is Maid Marrian from Robin Hood).

 

LTT and Rand have had vastly different backgrounds an experiences in their lives. To me the interaction between Rand and LTT is more to do with 2 life experinces talking to each other even though the base unit of both is the same persona.[/quote']

 

But what I find interesting, which I am sure RJ put in purposly is that anyone old enough to have rememberred the AOL, calls Rand by the name of LTT.

For them it is unthinkable that Rand is another person, in him they address the man who led the assault on the DO and sealed him. The Forsaken always mention him as LTT.

And now we have what seems a split personality. Rand is actually fighting the real LTT (cannot really be madness, since madness would not have accurate memories of the life of someone who is long dead {we know his memories are accurate from Asmodeans reactions}).

What I don't get though is, is Rand's soul fighting itself now? What exactly is happening when in moments of extreme duress or anxeity Rand loses control of his body and he becomes LTT. Literally becomes him, we can see by the letter on LoC to Merana how she noted there seemed 2 different handwritings on the paper, the signature of Rand al'thor seemed forced and rough in comparison to the flowing script of the letter (LTT was not a dumb hick farmer type from the backlands ala Rand, and hence we can assume he was learned and knew how to write properly).

Or in Dumai well's where LTT takes full control, bursts out of the holding chest, stills the Aes Sedai and was just short of demolishing half the camp. If Rand did not take back control out of fear of hurting Min through all the explosions.

Or in Knife of Dreams, during the assault while on the farm. We know he let LTT take over more or less and so saved his life and his friends by channeling threads no one even knew existed save perhaps people from the AoL.

 

All these instances where an entity takes over Rand's body, which has clear memories of the past life of fighting the DO. What are they? I would assume 2 souls stuck in one body. If not how does the heroes addressing him as LTT or LTT occasionally actively taking over the body make sense?

[Albert]

And now we have what seems a split personality. Rand is actually fighting the real LTT (cannot really be madness' date=' since madness would not have accurate memories of the life of someone who is long dead {we know his memories are accurate from Asmodeans reactions}). [/quote']

 

Yes, they are two persons sharing the same soul. It's been mentioned several times before that people are reborn, and this is the same. With Rand channeling however, the taint breaks down the barrier seperating the former person from the current so to say. We know that other male channelers also hear voices so it isn't special to Rand.

 

What I don't get though is' date=' is Rand's soul fighting itself now? What exactly is happening when in moments of extreme duress or anxeity Rand loses control of his body and he becomes LTT. Literally becomes him, we can see by the letter on LoC to Merana how she noted there seemed 2 different handwritings on the paper, the signature of Rand al'thor seemed forced and rough in comparison to the flowing script of the letter (LTT was not a dumb hick farmer type from the backlands ala Rand, and hence we can assume he was learned and knew how to write properly).

[/quote']

 

It is Rand's fear that if he caves in to LTT in moments as, for example, when he fights one of the Forsaken, LTT will take over. But he hasn't taken over yet, not one time since we would notice that. He is, on the other hand... influencing I guess you could say, Rand. Since Rand had channeled with the taint for quite some time, the barrier between them is weak. That's why Rand thinks and says things that isn't his thoughts. And vice versa. I think it is in CoT that Rand thinks that LTT sometimes speaks of Two Rivers like he grew up there. But since the taint is gone, I don't think it will progress any longer then that.

 

Or in Dumai well's where LTT takes full control' date=' bursts out of the holding chest, stills the Aes Sedai and was just short of demolishing half the camp. If Rand did not take back control out of fear of hurting Min through all the explosions.

Or in Knife of Dreams, during the assault while on the farm. We know he let LTT take over more or less and so saved his life and his friends by channeling threads no one even knew existed save perhaps people from the AoL.

[/quote']

 

In Dumais Wells, LTT did not have full control. He probably influenced Rand to still the Aes Sedai holding the shield, but Rand was pretty pissed himself. We don't really know what he would have done with them without LTT, so it's hard to say how much LTT of that were LTTs doing.

In KoD, he didn't 'let' LTT take over. When he reached for the Source, LTT seized it during his nausea. He certainly didn't want LTT in control, since he's, well, mad.

[Kyndig15145]

I am beginning to believe that Rand's death is somehow connected with Ishamael/Moridin. The overlapping theme to these books while dealing with Rand/Ishy, Light/Dark, Aes Sedai/Asha'man, or an Tavaren effects, RJ always has a balance. I don't see LTT dying as the death for Rand. I think we are assuming that it will be either LTT or Rand. I am beginning to think that the next climatic battle will be between the pallbears of the respective sides. Rand or Moridin, Light or the Dark.....