Machin Shin, The Ways, And Shadar Logoth

[caraieil]

Yep, cheers i see now, missed that completely.

[Master of the Blades]

Robert

 

FYI

 

http://www.tor.com/shayol.html

 

Mwuuuaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

 

This is not snippety its paradoxical.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I've read and even referenced "The Strike at Shayol Ghul" before, Master o' them Blades ....

 

I'm not sure what its signifigance in this conversation is though.

 

Its not a "Last Battle" and the Waygates didn't exist then.

 

The Age of Legends wasn't a full Age, it was just the first half of the Third Age, which will end after the redemption of the Dragon and the re-sealing of the Bore.

[Silver]

i believe you are mistaken with the age thing, RJ. if the current age is 3, then age of legends was 2. the breaking either signified the end of that age or the start of this age (never could figure out which)

[RobertAlexWillis]

i believe you are mistaken with the age thing, RJ. if the current age is 3, then age of legends was 2. the breaking either signified the end of that age or the start of this age (never could figure out which)

 

Thats a common view, but Rand's conversations with Herid Fel, and RJ's comments on how a new Age brings new abilities, support my view.

 

When a new Age of the Wheel comes, everything changes. New abilities appear, old abilities dissapear, etc. While the Breaking was a massive physical upheaval, it did not change the basic nature of the world. Channeling was still the primary source of power, Aes Sedai still influenced and guided the world, even the taint didn't change the basic nature of saidin.

 

Contrast that with the current situation. Channeling is disappearing from the populace (the percentage has been cut by two thirds since the Breaking). And new abilities (Min's viewings, Wolfbrothers) are appearing. The change after Tarmon Gai'don will be much more signifigant than even the Breaking.

 

The fight with the Dark One that Rand is fighting now is the same battle that Lews Therin fought and, in essence, lost. The Age can't turn until he wins.

 

Nowhere, in any of the books, is the War of the Power referred to as a "Last Battle", because it didn't settle anything. At the end, the world was still there, and the Dark One was still not back in his Prison completely. Just because people use the term "Age" to describe the Age of Legends, doesn't mean its an "Age" in the sense of an Age of the Wheel.

[caraieil]

Hum, wolfbrothers existed in the age of legends so this is hardly a new thing, and there is nothing to prove that no-one of mins abilities existed before it just hasn't been mentioned. I thought someone did mention somewhere in the books that the breaking was the end of the AoL, but can't back that up now so,

[RobertAlexWillis]

Show me anywhere, anywhere in the books that it says Wolfbrothers existed in the Age of Legends. It does say that the Breaking was the end of the Age of Legends, but it doesn't say it was the end of the Third Age or the Second Age. The Age of Legends is not equivalent to an "Age" of the Wheel, just because the same word is used.

 

Misconception, my friend.

 

For general information, this is one of the RJ quotes that helped form my thinking on this subject.

 

There is no relationship whatsoever between Foretelling, which manifests only in someone who can channel, and Min's viewings. There have been versions of Min's viewings in some previous ages, though not exactly the same.

 

Min, and the sniffers, and wolfbrothers appearing are all highly indicative, you know. New abilities, for this Age, are appearing, and that in itself indicates great changes coming. Great changes underway. Min's abilities will not remain unique; we have already seen one wolfbrother besides Perrin and Elyas, though a pitiful soul who couldn't master his gift, and there will be other sniffers. The Age is changing. The Wheel never stands still.

 

and another one,

 

The first people to discover the ability to channel learned through trial and error, with fairly high casualty rates until they learned enough not to kill themselves accidentally. Their appearance marked the beginning of the previous Age to that of the books, or at least the end of the Age before that one.

 

both from http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152

 

Also, the relevant parts of Rand's conversation with Fel. (from Lord of Chaos, chaper 18 A Taste of Solitude)

 

"No, it [the Dark One's prison] was whole in the beginning, and I think it will be whole again when the Third Age comes once more. Hmmmm. I wonder if they called it the Third Age?"

 

Clearly, Herid Fel views the Age of Legends as part of the Third Age, because if he viewed it as starting at the Breaking, then the prison would not be whole at the beginning of the Age.

 

The story of the Third Age seems to me to be the story of the release and reimprisoning of the Dark One. That means it includes the Age of Legends. Its the use of the word "Age" that is deceptive. Like many words, it can have multiple meanings. Just because people call it an "Age" doesn't mean it is the same as an "Age" of the Wheel.

[Thor]

tbh, i never bothered with the numbering of the ages, it's all just one continuous loop to me.

[caraieil]

Doesn't the green man say he new wolfbrothers before? When he meets perrin? and that it has been a long time since this? and I believe that someone (?) also says it was a gift older than the age of legends. (a bit vague) however if RJ said that then there's not too much to be said.

True the Age of Legends does not have to be an age in itself. I wonder actually how people in randland even know if the wheel exists?

[TheoryMan]

I love how much time people spend trying to figure out these books... I like to speculate on theories, but I don't spend days going over them. RobertAlexWillis... You know that WOT is a story right? A good story for sure, but a story none the less. Not exactly a work to do a thesis on unless you like wasted time.

 

[EDIT]

Especially when the book will be released in a year or two. (RJ will get well enough, and live on to write more than just the main series I think.)

[Master of the Blades]

I'm not sure what its signifigance in this conversation is though.

 

Your raised the issue in trying to digress from a direct question.

 

Show me anywhere, anywhere in the books that it says Wolfbrothers existed in the Age of Legends. It does say that the Breaking was the end of the Age of Legends, but it doesn't say it was the end of the Third Age or the Second Age. The Age of Legends is not equivalent to an "Age" of the Wheel, just because the same word is used.

 

Misconception my friend.

 

You use sweeping generalizations too easily.

 

(TEoTW The Dark One Stirs)

"...A Wolfbrother! Do the Old times really walk again then?"

 

Someshta knows of the existence of Wolfbrothers. Nym are artificial constructs made during the Age of Legends. (BWB) The Aes Sedai you created the Nym had to have knowledge of Wolfbrothers to incorporate it in the knowledge base of the Nym. At a minimum they knew of Wolfbrothers existence. Adn for Nym to be able to recognize one on sight should give an indication that there were some Wolfbrothers in the Second Age. This does not prove there existence in the AoL but leaves enough doubt to think they could have been present.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Your raised the issue in trying to digress from a direct question.

 

Which question was that? And YOU brought up the Strike at Shayol Ghul. What point were you trying to make with it?

 

Someshta knows of the existence of Wolfbrothers. Nym are artificial constructs made during the Age of Legends. (BWB) The Aes Sedai you created the Nym had to have knowledge of Wolfbrothers to incorporate it in the knowledge base of the Nym. At a minimum they knew of Wolfbrothers existence. Adn for Nym to be able to recognize one on sight should give an indication that there were some Wolfbrothers in the Second Age. This does not prove there existence in the AoL but leaves enough doubt to think they could have been present.

 

So? People (or constructs) can know about things that don't actually exist in their time. Rand knows about Sho-wings, but they don't exist in his time. The Aes Sedai of the "Age" of Legends researched things from many different Ages of the Wheel. The fact that Someshta knew about Wolfbrothers, and that a man whose eyes were visibly like wolf's eyes was one, does not mean that there were Wolfbrothers in the "Age" of Legends. As you admit:

 

This does not prove there existence in the AoL but leaves enough doubt to think they could have been present.

 

So, you have doubt, and interpret it the way you choose. Thats fine. But you still haven't shown me in the books (or a quote from RJ) that there were any Wolfbrothers in the "Age" of Legends.

 

I love how much time people spend trying to figure out these books... I like to speculate on theories, but I don't spend days going over them. RobertAlexWillis... You know that WOT is a story right

 

I'm sorry, TheoryMan ... why do you assume that these posts take me days? I check up on this board while I'm doing the other things I do online, checking email, talking to other friends, etc. But if it helps you to feel superior then :D go and live your awesomely cool life, my friend. We stand in awe of you. I'll just retreat to the geekatorium and wish that I could be like you.

[dyring]

Someshta knows of the existence of Wolfbrothers. Nym are artificial constructs made during the Age of Legends. (BWB) The Aes Sedai you created the Nym had to have knowledge of Wolfbrothers to incorporate it in the knowledge base of the Nym. At a minimum they knew of Wolfbrothers existence. Adn for Nym to be able to recognize one on sight should give an indication that there were some Wolfbrothers in the Second Age. This does not prove there existence in the AoL but leaves enough doubt to think they could have been present.

 

So? People (or constructs) can know about things that don't actually exist in their time. Rand knows about Sho-wings' date=' but they don't exist in his time. The Aes Sedai of the "Age" of Legends researched things from many different Ages of the Wheel. The fact that Someshta knew about Wolfbrothers, and that a man whose eyes were visibly like wolf's eyes was one, does not mean that there were Wolfbrothers in the "Age" of Legends. [/quote']

 

"The wheel of time turns and ages come and pass leaving memories tht become legend, legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the ages comes again", Written from memory, so the wording may be a tad off. However, wolfbrothers cant exist just now and the age coming after this, cause if so, no myth of it would have remained in the AOL, and Someshta would not know of it.

 

Logically, Wolfbrothers existed on AOL.

 

Wether AOL was the third age too, Well, you got good arguments for it. Im undecided.

 

//dyring

[rd2000]

In shorter words, what you're trying to say is that:

 

1)Someshta is a construct that was created in the AOL

2)For Someshta to recognize a wolfbrother, one therefore had to have existed during Someshta's lifespan.

3)Because the books are written in the ending of the 3rd age, and Someshta was created in the 2nd age, AND Wolfbrothers are said to pre-date channelling, Someshta must have seen Wolfbrothers early in his life, sometime in the 2nd age.

 

Sound about right?

[dyring]

In shorter words' date=' what you're trying to say is that:

 

1)Someshta is a construct that was created in the AOL

2)For Someshta to recognize a wolfbrother, one therefore had to have existed during Someshta's lifespan.

3)Because the books are written in the ending of the 3rd age, and Someshta was created in the 2nd age, AND Wolfbrothers are said to pre-date channelling, Someshta must have seen Wolfbrothers early in his life, sometime in the 2nd age.

 

Sound about right?[/quote']

 

Well, About.

 

1, yes.

2, maybe (he might have learned it from other sources than personal experience)

3, That they are said to predate channeling would by itself not mean they didnt still exist after channeling appeared.

 

There was on thing thou, If RAW meant to say that wolfbrothers didnt exist in AOL, but did in the age before AOL, Then part of my point falls rather dead really.

 

Think I need to read up on some parts again, but is it confirmed that the nym´s was created before aol? I thought they were created during AOL.

 

//dyring

[RobertAlexWillis]

The Nym are constructs, and the BWB implies that they were made using the One Power. They live for a long time, potentially thousands of years (keep that in mind). They are able to "utilize the One Power for the benefit of plants and growing things." (BWB, p. 31) Animals also react positively to their presence. In the Age of Legends, they worked closely with Ogier and the Da'shain Aiel to help make crops grow abundantly and impervious to blight. Thats essentially all we know of the Nym generally.

 

Of Someshta personally, we know he was the last of the Nym to survive. We know he has been wounded since the beginning of the Breaking (from Rand's ancestral flashback in Rhuidean, The Shadow Rising, chapter 26). He later became known as the Green Man, and was set to guard the Eye of the World. He killed Balthamel, and was in turn killed by Aginor.

 

None of that says when the first Nym was created, or how old Someshta is personally. Things from one Age previous don't fade into myth immediately. It is possible that Someshta knew and spoke with another Nym from near the beginning of the Age of Legends, who had heard things from previous Ages. Or spoke with an Aes Sedai who had researched such things. Or he may have some form of communication with wolves, and have learned of the ability from them.

 

There is always a little overlap. If the Second Age (and I'm talking about the Age before the Age of Legends) had Wolfbrothers, and the ability faded as channeling became more prevalent (the beginning of the Third Age, which is also the beginning of the Age of Legends) then the people living at the beginning of the Age of Legends would still know about them, even though they are not part of that Age. But by the end of the Third Age, the ability has faded from memory (which is why the Aes Sedai didn't understand what happened to Elyas, and why Perrin had never heard of a Wolfbrother). But Someshta, being from the first part of the Age, would still remember, even though they were not really a part of the Third Age.

 

There is no other reference from any record, or any of the Forsaken, that Wolfbrothers were a part of the Age of Legends. Just because Someshta knows what one looks like, is not proof that he has either seen one or that they lived in his time. Its just evidence that he knows about things from previous Ages, which is not that surprising in a being thousands of years old.

 

Besides, the Age of Legends in and of itself is incomplete. It only has the fall, not the recovery. Tarmon Gai'don never happened. The Age of Legends ended with the Breaking, but the Third Age continued, and will until the Pattern is made whole again.

[Thor]

I really don't understand why people even bother about when an age begins or end. What does it matter? It's all just a continuous loop.

 

And who said that an age must end with a final battle? And who's to say that final battles are final battles?

[Leopoled Boothe]

Even though Saidin has been cleansed I doubt that the ways will be restored. My reasoning comes from the fact that damage done to male channelers will not be reversed due to the cleansing of Saiden. It seems that damaged caused by the taint is permenant.

[rd2000]

On another WOT site, I read a theory on how some AS tried to destroy a waygate that was about to be engulfed by the blight. These AS were sucked into the waygate, and became Machin Shin.

 

P.S. Thanks Leopold for steering us back on topic.