Cadsuane Bothers Me

[Rhienne]

I think Cadsuane is interesting in that she mirrors some of our real world issues.  She is judgemental, she believes she is the right person to do the job, and she believes it is her place to do it.  I think most people at least err towards the view that she was right (at least in her goals, if not in the ways she reached them).  I think the issue is that why does Cadsuane have the right to do what she believes is right for tDR?  If she has that right, then why doesn't anyone else?  She is kind of in a position of moral superiority which is justified by many of the results she gets, but I think it raises the issue of whether she has the right to assume this position.

 

I think something that isn't recognised enough is how much she lucked out with Min's viewing.  If Min hadn't seen that specific viewing her methods would have completely failed.  The only reason Rand kept her around, asked her to be his advisor, and tried to follow his advice because of Min's viewings.  It wasn't because of any of Cadsuane's actions (although obviously these later had some good effects).  But I think it is an overestimation of her success to give her credit for her methods in 'gaining Rand's confidence' because it was really nothing to do with her.

[EmperorAllspice]

 

 

 

 

 

Why has no Aes Sedai ever tried just being flat out nice and supportive towards Rand? Moiraine seemed to be learning to do that, which was a breath of fresh air if I've ever known one. And now we have Cadsuane who is back to treating Rand like garbage.

Moiraine did try that and he ran roughshod all over her. Add to that the AS who came bearing gifts and compliments who then promptly kidnapped and beat him and Cads had no other direction to take. It was the only course of action left to her. The quotes as to why have already been provided.

But I must wait for him to come to me. You see the way he runs roughshod over Alanna and the others. It will be hard enough teaching him, if he does ask. He fights guidance, he thinks he must do everything, learn everything, on his own, and if I do not make him work for it, he won't learn at all."

 

- Winter’s Heart, Bonds

"Most men will take what is offered, if it seems attractive and pleasant," Sorilea said. "Once, we thought of Rand al'Thor so. Unfortunately, it is too late to change the path we walk. Now, he suspects whatever is offered freely. Now, if I wanted him to accept something, I would pretend I did not want him to have it. If I wanted to stay close to him, I would pretend indifference to whether I ever saw him again." Once more, those eyes focused on Cadsuane, green augers. Not trying to see what lay inside her head. The woman knew.

 

- The Path of Daggers, New Alliances

Lastly she swore to do what was best for him, not herself or the WT. She also saved his life multiple times over, backed hin to the hilt with things like the cleansing, etc. Compared to all of that calling him "boy"(often when he is acting like a child) is hardly treating him "like garbage". She doesnt care for titles, she hates politicking, and she doesn't suffer fools. It's part of the reason the WO's respect her so much. She keeps her word and always works towards Rand's benefit(a driving piece of her character is trying to better those around her and we see her show compassion). Despite that all many fans seem to care about is "but ZOMFG she was a big meanie to the Dragon Reborn!"

 

Yes, and everything you say is true. But it doesn't make her likeable to me. and it makes me want to saw my own arm off because people seem to be confused or annoyed that I don't like her despite her being so benevolent.

 

I honestly don't know what to do. I can't talk about anything regarding characters because what I consider likeable is radically different from everyone else that I've seen on this forum.

 

Well firstly, what do you mean by likeable? Do you mean you like reading about a character, or that you like a character as a person? The two are not the same.

 

 No, I do not like reading about a "good" character who isn't also likeable as a person. So to me they ARE the same thing near enough in that regard. If a character is an antagonist or otherwise MEANT to be wrong then I can find them brilliant for their jerkish or evil qualities.

 

So if someone is meant to be a jerk you can like them for their jerkish qualities, but this isn't enough for you to like Cadsuane who is, after all, meant to be abrasive and hard to like?

 

Generally, a jerk which I like is either totally in the wrong (Joffrey from ASOIAF) or gets punished for being a jerk (like Nynaeve)

 

Cadsuane isn't punished for her behaviour. Unless that's later on

[Suttree]

  I think the issue is that why does Cadsuane have the right to do what she believes is right for tDR?  If she has that right, then why doesn't anyone else?  She is kind of in a position of moral superiority which is justified by many of the results she gets, but I think it raises the issue of whether she has the right to assume this position.

 

 

From the AS point of view they are holding ready for the LB and shepherding the world for the greater good. Cadsuane is the ultimate Green and the oldest, most accomplished living sister.  

 

But then, over two hundred and seventy years had passed since she last encountered a task she could not perform

 

- A Crown of Swords, Diamonds and Stars

 

RJ

There are the usual tales expected of a Green, only more of them. Riots suppressed and wars stopped single-handedly; rulers steadied on their thrones, or pulled from them, sometimes toppled openly and sometimes more subtly (toppling rulers was something Aes Sedai had not really done much of in the last thousand years, but Cadsuane seemed in many ways a throwback). Rescuing people carried into the Blight or kidnaped by dangerous bands of Darkfriends, breaking up murderous rings of Darkfriends plaguing villages and towns, and exposing powerful Darkfriends who tried to kill her to protect themselves. There are dozens, even hundreds, of improbable and sometimes seemingly impossible tales....

 

When Siuan Sanche and Moiraine Damodred had reason to research Cadsuane because of their encounter with her shortly after reaching the shawl, they found many stories regarding Cadsuane. All of the ones that they were able to trace down turned out to be true, and in some cases the truth was more than the story

 

More importantly she has the most experience by far with male channelers. She faced more than any ten Reds combined and showed compassion in developing a method of post stilling care that allows them adjust back to a more normal life. We also know she is open to all options.

 

While Merise had become somewhat accustomed to doing the unthinkable—most sisters would faint at the very idea of bonding a man who could channel—she was never comfortable giving them voice. Cadsuane was, yet she kept her voice neutral.

 

- Crossroads of Twilight, Ornaments

 

and refuses to get caught up in WT politics, which is key for her plan to not let Rand be controlled by the WT.

 

A refusal to accept selection as a Sitter was unheard of, yet it was said she had refused, and at least twice. It was said she had spurned being raised head of the Green Ajah, too. It was said she once vanished from the Tower for ten years because the Hall intended to raise her Amyrlin. Not that she had ever spent a day more in Tar Valon than absolutely necessary.

 

- A Crown of Swords, Diamonds and Stars

 

Realistically who else would it be?

RJ

Cadsuane will do what she intends to do, and no one can stop her: not a king or a queen, not an Amyrlin—not even the Dark One himself, some claimed. And when Rand al'Thor arose to power as the Dragon Reborn, Cadsuane once again chose to take part in directing the events of the world.....

 

I think something that isn't recognised enough is how much she lucked out with Min's viewing.  If Min hadn't seen that specific viewing her methods would have completely failed.  The only reason Rand kept her around, asked her to be his advisor, and tried to follow his advice because of Min's viewings.  It wasn't because of any of Cadsuane's actions (although obviously these later had some good effects).  But I think it is an overestimation of her success to give her credit for her methods in 'gaining Rand's confidence' because it was really nothing to do with her.

 

 This is overblown to my mind. We see Cad's method work first hand in places, we see the WOs mirror her thoughts and we see Moiraine advocating a similar course of action. There have been numerous quotes provided over the years supporting this. The viewing helped but it is only a part of the overall whole. Again she swore straight out to do what was best for him, not herself or the WT. That holds a great deal of weight and was reinforced with her saving his life and backing him to the hilt with other things AS would have thought insane such as the Cleansing. It is unequivocally false to say it had "nothing to do with her".

 

Lastly to touch on Moiraine I always find it funny the fandom seems to give her a pass. She didn't start being open with him out of some altruistic sense, one  method of control wasn't working so shifted to another...end of story. Further she even went so far as to go behind his back and try and countermand his orders like when the Aiel were getting ready to cross the Dragon Wall. Cadsuane had one option left to her and she did a great deal of research and testing before she commited to that course of action.

  

I think Bob T Dwarf summed it up pretty nicely.

This sentence is never a good sign.

 

Classic. Wonder what ever happened to that troll?

[nolirion]

I think Cadsuane is interesting in that she mirrors some of our real world issues.  She is judgemental, she believes she is the right person to do the job, and she believes it is her place to do it.  I think most people at least err towards the view that she was right (at least in her goals, if not in the ways she reached them).  I think the issue is that why does Cadsuane have the right to do what she believes is right for tDR?  If she has that right, then why doesn't anyone else?  She is kind of in a position of moral superiority which is justified by many of the results she gets, but I think it raises the issue of whether she has the right to assume this position.

 

I think something that isn't recognised enough is how much she lucked out with Min's viewing.  If Min hadn't seen that specific viewing her methods would have completely failed.  The only reason Rand kept her around, asked her to be his advisor, and tried to follow his advice because of Min's viewings.  It wasn't because of any of Cadsuane's actions (although obviously these later had some good effects).  But I think it is an overestimation of her success to give her credit for her methods in 'gaining Rand's confidence' because it was really nothing to do with her.

Cadsuane judgemental ?

I would like to discuss it with you , to understand how you can think that of a woman who sacrificed everything for more than an hundred years , if not all her life , in the pursuit and the safeguard of the Dragon Reborn , been quite litteraly the embodiment of a true Aes'Sedai of the third age , in order to save the world , is judgemental when she aproach Rand int he only proper manner.

But before that I would like you to explain to me why do you think she was not the right person for the job, and who could have been better at it ?

[Rhienne]

I'm not disputing that Cadsuane was the right person for the job.  I actually think she was.  And Cadsuane is judgemental - she makes judgements (mostly correctly) about Rand's character, and about other characters.  We see numerous POVs from her giving quite critical summaries of her perceptions of other character (e.g. Nynaeve, Rand, Min), possibly more often and more coherently than those provided by any other character.  From her perspective and the perspective of AS she is the right person for the job.  However, the WT is not trusted by everyone in the world, and a major theme of the series (as I perceive it) is the progressive shift in our view of the WT from a pinnacle of knowledge, learning, and mystery, to an organisation that is torn apart by its internal conflicts.  They have somewhat lost their moral authority in a reputation for meddling and promoting the goals of the WT rather than seeking what is best for the world, although I am not implying that this is true of Cadsuane.  On the contrary, she has been out in the world actively helping people and acting as an AS should.

 

I am merely trying to discuss some of the reasons why she rubs people up the wrong way, and I think one of them is her assumption that she has the right to advise Rand, and to be the one to guide him, much as Moiraine did.  A lot of Rand's best actions were those that he chose to do independently, e.g the cleansing of saidin, the creation of the BT (although he should obviously have invested more time in it after its formation), the academies, meeting with Herid Fell, closing up the Waygates, etc.  I'm not denying that Rand did need guidance.  He certainly was going down the wrong path, perhaps unsurprisingly following his captivity at the hand's of Elaida's delegation.  I just think its not surprising that Rand, and a lot of the readers who identify with Rand, find it hard to accept or like characters that appear out of nowhere and want to guide Rand's actions.  I think some recognition for the good things he had done might have improved relations.  I also think her contemplations about bonding him against his will are very off putting to most readers, particularly after the Light Siuan has painted this in.  And when you add in the possibility/probability that she blackmailed the Asha'man into being bonded, it doesn't make her very sympathetic to read.

 

 

 

 This is overblown to my mind. We see Cad's method work first hand in places, we see the WOs mirror her thoughts and we see Moiraine advocating a similar course of action. There have been numerous quotes provided over the years supporting this. The viewing helped but it is only a part of the overall whole. Again she swore straight out to do what was best for him, not herself or the WT. That holds a great deal of weight and was reinforced with her saving his life and backing him to the hilt with other things AS would have thought insane such as the Cleansing. It is unequivocally false to say it had "nothing to do with her".

I believe it was very important.  Its what made Rand want to keep Cadsuane around, and want her to show an interest in him.  I think without the knowledge that he had to learn something from her, Rand wouldn't have been interested in keeping Cadsuane around him, or trying to follow some of her advice.

 

APoD, chp. 27, Min POV

 

Rand sat up with a muffled oath.  'You tell Cadsuane she can go to the Pit of Doom!' he shouted after the retreating Sister. 'Tell her she can rot!'

'It won't do, Rand,' Min sighed.  This was going to be harder than she had thought. 'You need Cadsuane.  She doesn't need you.'

 

WH, chp. 25, Rand POV

 

Min said he needed Cadsuane[...]Somehow, he had to make her interested. 

 

From Rand's thoughts on Cadsuane I do think that luck played a role in how Rand turned out.  No one likes being manipulated, however good the goals are.

 

tGS, chp. 33, Nynaeve POV

 

Rand: 'You think you know what is best for me, even against my wishes, but that is something I can accept.  The difference between you and Cadsuane is that you actually care about me.  She only cares about my place in her plans.'

I think Rand is actually wrong, I do believe Cadsuane cares about him, as shown in POV after he has been injured by Fain and she states she doesn't want to hurt him more than she most.  However, she has completely failed to make Rand aware of that.  Rand initially believes she sees him as a curiosity, and then just part of her plans.  Yet he indicates here, at one of his darkest points in the series, how much he values being cared about rather than seen as a means to an end.  

 

Cadsuane wants to teach Rand that he is human, and a big part of humanity is trust and empathy.  Her behaviour has encouraged the complete opposite in Rand.

 

tGS, chp. 47, Rand POV

 

The Aes Sedai pretended to obey him, yet dined with Cadsuane behind his back and danced at her command.  

The AS and Cadsuane are right not to obey him at this point.  But by making him feel manipulated instead of cared about they are only adding to his feelings of isolation and mistrust.  He cannot even trust that Tam has come to see him out of love because Cadsuane sent him, and he feels it is another part of her manipulations rather than an act of care for his mental well being.  

 

tGS, chp 47, Rand POV

 

Cadsuane.  Tam had come because of Cadsuane[...]Not because he'd just wanted to check on his son.  But because he'd been manipulated into coming. [...] Had their conversation all been another one of Cadsuane's games?

 

tGS, chp. 48, Min POV

 

Standing in the doorway was a very angry Tam al'Thor[...] 'What have you done to him?' he demanded.[...]

 

'Interesting,' Cadsuane said, her voice cold. 'And did you speak the words I prepared for you?'

'I began to,' Tam said, 'but I realised that it wasn't working.[...] A man using Aes Sedai script with his own son!  I don't know what you did, woman, but I recognise hatred when I see it.'

 

tGS, chp. 48, Min POV

 

'This is what we all get', Min said, 'for assuming we can make him do what we want.'

 

Given that one of the major running points in the series (at least from LoC) is the lack of trust and honesty between characters, and how this is a major thorn in the Light's side, I interpret Cadsuane's arc partly from that perspective.  She does care about Rand, she cares about the world, she genuinely wants to improve the people around her. But she has failed to convey any of her sincerity to Rand, and as a result Rand believes she is just manipulating him.  Her actions are aimed at a specific goal, but they also make it difficult for Rand to understand her intents.  By focusing on his manners, by pretending not to be interested in him, she has manipulated Rand to where she wants him to be.  Obviously Cadsuane isn't responsible for Rand's frame of mind, but I don't think her goal was for Rand to hate her, and I think his sense of being manipulated by her pushed him over the edge.  Yes, it worked out well, but I don't think Cadsuane intended this to be the result of Rand's reunion with Tam, and Rand's comment to Egwene shows that he believes that it was the unintended (and almost catastrophic) consequences of Cadsuane's manipulations that allowed him to have his moment of revelation.

 

Tom, chp. 3, Egwene POV

 

'I was broken,' Rand said, hands behind his back, 'And then, remarkably, I was reforged.  [...]  It was Cadsuane who set me to fixing it, though she did so by accident.'

[False Dragon1991]

I assumed that we saw Cadsuane and her method fail because one of the big points Gathering Storm seems to be going for is that "WE NEED MOIRAINE DAMODRED BACK!". She is mentioned so many times in this novel by all the characters or even indirectly. Yes, I never felt that Rand quite acknowledged that Moiraine really does care either. She does tell him in all earnesty at one point if I remember but I never felt he quite believed her. Or at the very least he was doing the heart of iron routine so doesn't acknowledge it. In fact his opinion of her seems to improve massively once shes dead and I'd even go so far as to suggest that the pattern deliberately faked her death so that Rand would get these feelings and feel overjoyed when she is returned. Which he kinda needs and Cads does say she needs the boy to laugh again else he will destroy himself.  

[EmperorAllspice]

I'd still love to see someone try to be flat out casual to him. No sense of dignity or trying to keep face. Just lounging about, asking him if he wants some wine. Cracking jokes and having a laugh. Stuff like that.

 

I'd say Rand also needs FRIENDS too. People he doesn't have to be the Dragon Reborn around

[Suttree]

  Obviously Cadsuane isn't responsible for Rand's frame of mind, but I don't think her goal was for Rand to hate her, and I think his sense of being manipulated by her pushed him over the edge.  

 

Do to the growing insanity and link with Moridin "Dark Rand" was going over the edge regardless. Her actions, even though it took a stroke of luck at the end lead to that and it was her plan all along, recall her thoughts of what victory would mean if he was still hard.

 

"The boy confuses them," she said. "He needs to be strong, and makes himself harder. Too hard, already, and he will not stop until he is stopped. He has forgotten how to laugh except in bitterness; there are no tears left in him. Unless he finds laughter and tears again, the world faces disaster. He must learn that even the Dragon Reborn is flesh. If he goes to Tarmon Gai'don as he is, even his victory may be as dark as his defeat."

 

- The Path of Daggers, New Alliances

 

I also find it interesting that most fans forget the below quote most of the time:

 

 Oh, yes. Whatever I do, it will be for your own good; not mine, not the good of the White Tower, yours.

 

- The Path of Daggers, The Bargain

[EmperorAllspice]

Then where's the sense of uncertainty. If everything is going as she plans and she's so brilliant and incredible at adaptation, then where's the tension? Where's the belief that she and team light could fail?

[Suttree]

Then where's the sense of uncertainty. If everything is going as she plans and she's so brilliant and incredible at adaptation, then where's the tension? Where's the belief that she and team light could fail?

 

You will see.

[EmperorAllspice]

God, I hate RAFO so much. Remember what I said. I HATE surprises!!

 

Unless you honestly think I'm going to be happy with the surprise when it happens

[ratswot]

 

The Chosen are from a different time. They rose to power in a different environment. Most of them emerged form the Bore not even knowing the language. Also, the Chosen got where they did due to them having certain qualities, which don't necessarily help them overmuch in these changed times. They still enjoy a great deal of success, and their reputation for stupid mistakes is somewhat exaggerated.

 

 

This is the most pathetic argument I've come across for defending the cardboard cutouts that are the forsaken

I think Bob T Dwarf summed it up pretty nicely.

This sentence is never a good sign.

 

 

He makes a lot  more sense than you do.

 

 

 

 

 

[ratswot]

How does my having seen people do things like that translate to my lacking worldly experience? I'll bluntly criticise anyone, regardless of how public it is or how senior they are. Actual slapping is rarer, but as the initial point was not restricted to specifically the slapping or rulers by advisers, there's no reason for me to answer the question. Look it up yourself if you're interested, I'm sure history has some examples and you'll probably learn something in the process.

 

 

Nothing to learn here. However I do not take any pleasure in proving you CONCLUSIVELY WRONG. Zero examples where the "slapper" lived to tell about it. Big difference between criticising and slapping someone. I'd pay good money to see you crticise Putin in public. PM me and I'll arrange for your flight to Moscow immediately. I'll even book your fast train to a Siberian Gulag!

[Mr Ares]

I think Cadsuane is interesting in that she mirrors some of our real world issues.  She is judgemental, she believes she is the right person to do the job, and she believes it is her place to do it.  I think most people at least err towards the view that she was right (at least in her goals, if not in the ways she reached them).  I think the issue is that why does Cadsuane have the right to do what she believes is right for tDR?  If she has that right, then why doesn't anyone else?  She is kind of in a position of moral superiority which is justified by many of the results she gets, but I think it raises the issue of whether she has the right to assume this position.

I think if you see Rand getting closer and closer to the edge, it is not just one's right but one's duty to help him (if you know how). So everyone has the right to help, but not everyone has the ability - Cadsuane does.

 

I think something that isn't recognised enough is how much she lucked out with Min's viewing.  If Min hadn't seen that specific viewing her methods would have completely failed.  The only reason Rand kept her around, asked her to be his advisor, and tried to follow his advice because of Min's viewings.  It wasn't because of any of Cadsuane's actions (although obviously these later had some good effects).  But I think it is an overestimation of her success to give her credit for her methods in 'gaining Rand's confidence' because it was really nothing to do with her.

Not recognised enough? People seem to bring it up every time there's a Cadsuane topic. I don't think it has much strength as a point, because Cadsuane has been shown to be a very adaptable woman. Min's Viewing provided an opening, but without that opening she would have sought another, or made her own.

 

Generally, a jerk which I like is either totally in the wrong (Joffrey from ASOIAF) or gets punished for being a jerk (like Nynaeve)

 

Cadsuane isn't punished for her behaviour. Unless that's later on

Ah, you desire a sense of natural justice. Unfortunately, in fiction as in life, it is quite possible for people to be both unpleasant and right, and not get punished. That said, some of Cadsuane's worst excesses are deliberate, they are done for a purpose and not just a result of her being a jerk. Plus, going forward some less than pleasant things happen to her, and events do slip out of her grasp somewhat - whether this is enough to redeem her for you, I can't say, but she will have some failures and she will be punished.

 

 

 

I think Bob T Dwarf summed it up pretty nicely.

This sentence is never a good sign.

 

 

Classic. Wonder what ever happened to that troll?

 

Moved on. So many people have. He was here when I joined, and has been and gone a couple of times during that period.

 

Then where's the sense of uncertainty. If everything is going as she plans and she's so brilliant and incredible at adaptation, then where's the tension? Where's the belief that she and team light could fail?

She has an end goal which she works towards, but she is not in control of the situation at all times. Things are most definitely out of her hands at some points, and she struggles to regain control of the situation.

 

 

The Chosen are from a different time. They rose to power in a different environment. Most of them emerged form the Bore not even knowing the language. Also, the Chosen got where they did due to them having certain qualities, which don't necessarily help them overmuch in these changed times. They still enjoy a great deal of success, and their reputation for stupid mistakes is somewhat exaggerated.

This is the most pathetic argument I've come across for defending the cardboard cutouts that are the forsaken

 

I think Bob T Dwarf summed it up pretty nicely.

This sentence is never a good sign.

 

He makes a lot  more sense than you do.

 

No, he doesn't. Most of his opinions are poorly thought through and argued, and he often fails to address points made against him. I may be a bastard, but I'm a bastard who can argue his point better than most.

 

As for defending the "cardboard cutouts" of the Chosen, that wasn't what I was doing. I was explaining their failure, not addressing any perceived lack of depth in their characterisation.

 

 

How does my having seen people do things like that translate to my lacking worldly experience? I'll bluntly criticise anyone, regardless of how public it is or how senior they are. Actual slapping is rarer, but as the initial point was not restricted to specifically the slapping or rulers by advisers, there's no reason for me to answer the question. Look it up yourself if you're interested, I'm sure history has some examples and you'll probably learn something in the process.

Nothing to learn here. However I do not take any pleasure in proving you CONCLUSIVELY WRONG. Zero examples where the "slapper" lived to tell about it. Big difference between criticising and slapping someone. I'd pay good money to see you crticise Putin in public. PM me and I'll arrange for your flight to Moscow immediately. I'll even book your fast train to a Siberian Gulag!

 

I dislike travel. Next time Putin is in the UK, I would be willing to meet him if you can arrange that. But he'd also have to give me cause to slap him. Can you manage that? As for proving me wrong, feel free to do so at any point.

[Barid Bel Medar]

This thread has got out of hand. Lets keep the personal attacks to a minimum. 

 

I've not seen this thread for a bit because I've been busy. Instead of removing each individual remark, I just reiterate that no personal attack will be tolerated and it will be removed. If you're not sure about a personal attack, I'll be happy to discuss it. Apologies for the delay. 

 

Locked. 

 

Edit: Also, don't worry too much about being called out for something you say. Here on DM, the colour of a clear sky will be argued. I guarantee that even the most sensible and well thought out opinion will be called out. (I'm not saying any point is more valid in this thread, just using it as an example that there is always someone willing to argue a point.)