Does Tuon really think attacking the White Tower is going to work?

[False Dragon1991]

 

You bluff, feint, parry, and ultimately try to outsmart and outmaneuver your opponent - even the most powerful channelers we see have to do these things in a duel.  Artillery isn't designed or trained to do these things... Aes Sedai are.

 

As has been mentioned damane have been fighting in battles and "dueling" other damane constantly throughout the entire time since the consolidation. Once sul'dam reach a certain amount of experience and skill they can form the weaves themselves through the damane so they do not need to "tell them" to do anything. AS have not fought other channelers aside from the occasional males since the trolloc war and there is nothing to indicate all AS even practice dueling. Damane are far more accomplished at battle weaves. As for the linking that is far more of a "howitzer" situation where you need to tell someone what to do:

 

ACoS

   "A circle, Cadsuane?" the Gray asked. Head turning this way and that to peer at the fog, she looked like a plump, pale-haired sparrow with her sharp nose and inquisitive eyes. Not a frightened sparrow, but one definitely ready to take wing. "Should we link?"

   "No, Niande," Cadsuane sighed. "If you see something, you must be able to strike at it without waiting to point it out for me.

 

 

 

Yet its specifically Egwene linking which wins the battle and her simply ignoring the damanes attacks as she blows them up. Linking is invisible so doesn't constrict movement in the same way and besides Egwene was powerful enough (I assume, else how could she have survived) to shield herself and those around her from return fire. The damane haven't been said to have any such defense because fortunately the savages have no angreal. Its just that they seem to kill whatever might shoot at them before it can attack back. So its logical that if the regular Aes Sedai had linked (which they should be able to) they would have been able to overpower the damane who do not possess this advantage. Also, the pointing things out in order to attack them. Every damane has to do the same and tell her suldam what to attack before she can use the weaves. As Cadsuane says this should put them at a disadvantage but the Seanchan are never shown as suffering this disadvantage at all.

 

I could understand if there were more than a few hundred soldiers doing this sort of damage. But its very hard to take seriously since if it were that easy then why hasn't Taim just taken fifty "dark" ashaman into the tower or other dreadlords during the trolloc wars just gatewaying in loads of darkfriends (also, why wouldn't the dark one make sure that his Black Ajah were trained to fight properly?)? Tuons bodyguard when she met Rand was four times (at least in damane and probs many times more soldiers) the size of this strike force. This feels more like an attack by ten thousand soldiers and 200 damane rather than 300 people, 100 of which sul/damane. 

[Yamezt]

The Novices linked with Egwene were hiding in rooms. She did not have to protect them as such. From Gareth PoV, she was the only person standing in the opening.

 

With regards to the rest of the fight, the only thing I found odd was that with a Sa'Angreal or any of the AS she rescued (with the angreals from the store) were not able to Cloud Dance or affect the weather sufficiently to ground all the Raken/To'Raken. However, we do not really know much about weather control. Verin, who apparently was decent at it, required quite a lot of time to make it rain in Falme and Seanchan had Windfinders by then.

 

With regards to travelling, the forsaken seem to be pretty stingy in teaching all they know.

 

As for the rest, I do not find it unbelievable the Seanchan more or less were relatively successful in their raid. We know from 2 PoV that AS that we know that were captured were generally isolated from the rest (Adelorna was only with 2 other Greens, of which 1 died; Elaida was with an accepted.) We know of 3 groups that held them off (led by Egwene, Saerin & Seaine). Perhaps you would disagree with me, but I think it would be easier to hold off stronger groups if you do not care about protecting the Tower. 

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think that you still underestimate the Seanchan ability because of your loathing, but I do agree overall the battle wasn't particularly accurate. 

 

The principle of the raid was workable, but the specifics of it have a lot of inconsistencies. 

 

I think that there are two main points to take away from the raid: a) the huge fissures in the White Tower/Ajah's from Mesaana and the Black Ajah are evident.

                                                                                                     b) the Aes Sedai are unprepared for battle because of all the time wasted. 

[Suttree]

a) the huge fissures in the White Tower/Ajah's from Mesaana and the Black Ajah are evident.

This seems to be a main point FD is missing. It's one I often mention when some of the anti-AS fans bring up how incapable AS are in battle. The WT is split, Fain has touched the tower/infected it with paranoia and distrust, it's BA riddled and Mesaana through Alviarin has been spreading chaos with conflicting orders through Elaida(who is a terrible leader on her own). It's so bad that sisters are being assaulted by other sisters for walking through the wrong areas. No one trusts anyone else, no unity whatsoever. There is not a fighting force on earth that would fare well under those circumstances.

[False Dragon1991]

Of course I loathe the overpowered Mary Sue faction with its plot armor.

 

Perhaps. Those divisions are severe and the text does get at that. But if it were THAT easy, then I don't understand why the shadow hasn't just wiped the Aes Sedai out entirely. Taim and his ashaman could easily destroy the tower if this is the case. Surely no Aes Sedai is better than divided Aes Sedai? With the Last Battle imminent why would they pass such an opportunity up. And if the Forsaken want to have the Aes Sedai continue then why would they risk the Seanchan disrupting that? Surely the Black Ajah would have advance warning from the forsaken and their Seanchan darkfriends to prevent losing valuable agents? Its not in their interests anymore for the Seanchan to gain more damane with the death of Suroth. So why hasn't one of the Forsaken killed Tuon like they did her mother? So the forsaken are willing to jeopardize their own plans with the Aes Sedai to the betterment of one of their enemies and risk losing lots of black ajah; because...? 

 

But I still consider it silly that this tiny force was able to attack the white tower (which is going to be odd if later the shadow has major issues assaulting the place) and that Egwene with a sangreal was not able to destroy them in seconds. We see plenty of instances with channelers without access to a sangreal or just a basic angreal laying waste to huge numbers of soldiers. All Egwene would have to do is a larger version of what Alviarin did when she flattened the dust in a room to the ground, only on the raken instead; killing the entire force. If a few damane can kill thousands then I don't see why Egwene, one of the most powerful female channelers alive, with a sangreal, can't kill 300 people and only kills 30 of their fliers. 

 

Plus, if Tuon has access to male collars then why not attack the Black Tower where there a hundreds of much more powerful ashaman she could use? Granted they'd probably be successful there as well with all the plot armor since damane are so OP that it would make up for no linking against male channelers.  

 

 

Also, read end of Gathering Storm. Hmph, so Rand has doomed humanity to slavery, barbarism and made sure the AoL will never happen again? These people are like Caesers Legion off New Vegas. I don't care if they make the trains run on time or resolve the great depression; they are still evil. Whatever, Matts going to make them join for the Last Battle anyway; hopefully they don't recover from those losses. On a related point, I really hope GRR Martin doesn't go down a similar road with Daenerys and the dragons in A Song of Ice and Fire. After ADWD and that LONG build up to her embracing fire and blood I do not want a book of her still refusing to use the dragons because they're too powerful, there use is ammoral and her friends try to pull her back from using them on her enemies. Just as they've gotton big enough to use... That would be so annoying. 

[Suttree]

Plus, if Tuon has access to male collars then why not attack the Black Tower where there a hundreds of much more powerful ashaman she could use? Granted they'd probably be successful there as well with all the plot armor since damane are so OP that it would make up for no linking against male channelers.  

 

There is no evidence that she does have widespread access. Semi had the copies for the sneak attack on Rand. It is likely DF's were the ones that created the extras.

 

Also we know domination bands are flawed. Over time the control goes both ways and men can turn the tables.

 

As for Egwene I'm not sure what you mean. When she started using the item of power the Seanchan were routed, although the raid was already a success at that point. It's not as if they were flying in a neat orderly row, plus many were already in retreat with captives at that point.

[False Dragon1991]

Its made out as if she breaks the attack on the tower and they only start withdrawing once she turns the tables. Something like the Seanchan stay longer than they should because of how succesful they were. Also, Egwene did not care that they had captives and was shooting them down regardless. Plus a channeler can fire as far as they can see, which from the battle of Cairhien is very far. Speaking of which, thats a great example of Egwene on a normal day without a sangreal. She killed thousands of Aeil alongside Aviendha and Rand.Yet with a sangreal she only manages to kill thirty due to the ridiculous Seanchan plot armor? 

 

Why would they need to be in a row? With a sangreal she could just turn the sky into fire or use air to pulp raken and their riders or fill the air with a thousand shafts of lightening. This is a tiny force which is attacking the white tower. 300 people on 100 very big targets flying in the air with nothing to obstruct Egwenes field of vision for miles. Are you saying that killing 30 targets is too much for Egwene and would leave her exhausted even with a sangreal. Is she weaker than the average damane now even with the sangreal? By this logic she should not have been able to do what she did at Cairhein where she killed 300 with every strike.  

[Suttree]

. Plus a channeler can fire as far as they can see, which from the battle of Cairhien is very far.

 

You do realize it's night time correct?

 

 

 By this logic she should not have been able to do what she did at Cairhein where she killed 300 with every strike.  

 

Quote?

 

Also you are talking about an army assault packed together verse a raid spread out.

[Agitel]

There would have been damane on those raken offering a defense, as well.

[False Dragon1991]

There would have been damane on those raken offering a defense, as well.

 

The power difference meant they couldn't actually hurt Egwene and prevent her killing them with near impunity. Its described as a childs hand stopping a waterfall.

 

@Suttree- Um, it describes whole hills blowing up. I think its safe to assume that casualties were that high. Without access to a sangreal.

 

I just find it silly that Egwene on a normal day does that but here kills a paltry handful. I would rather I got to see a few more Seanchan killed before they ally for the Last Battle especially Egwene hasn't done any fighting with the One Power since that fight. So its a little underwhelming to portray her as getting this ultra sangreal (the only other one we have seen being Callandor BTW), with goddess like abilities and then kill a few soldiers. A seanchan unit probably loses more troops and damane every day to disease or starvation than what Egwene killed.

[Suttree]

@Suttree- Um, it describes whole hills blowing up. I think its safe to assume that casualties were that high. Without access to a sangreal.

 

So no quote then? You really need to start supporting some of these claims in various threads.

[False Dragon1991]

 

@Suttree- Um, it describes whole hills blowing up. I think its safe to assume that casualties were that high. Without access to a sangreal.

 

So no quote then? You really need to start supporting some of these claims in various threads.

 

 

Rand observes Egwene and Aviendha channeling before he joins in, remarking that "he could not tell which woman was doing what", but its all there on p624 of the Fires of Heaven. 

 

""Suddenly lightening stabbed down, a jagged silver streak that rent a hilltop below the city. Before the crack of the first bolt reached the tower, two more crackled earthward. Wild forks danced across the sky, but those single lances of brilliant white struck with the regularity of a heartbeat. Abruptly, ground exploded where no lightening had fallen, fountaining fifty feet, then again somewhere else, and again."

 

I fail to see how this could not kill hundreds of men in seconds. This is more like a heavy artillery barrage than magic. Each explosion would throw up shrapnel that would scythe men to pieces apart from the sheer force of the blast. Almost like those mines they used in WW1 to blow up german trenches by tunneling under them; its very reminiscent of that. Whilst lightening has a similar explosive effect when it blows a hilltop up. All as quickly as a heartbeat without stopping? There are bits after this but its much less clear what is Rand and what isn't. That is still really impressive.  

 

But remember, this is Egwene without access to a sangreal. Yet, she only manages to kill a few raken and soldiers? Coz Mary Sue Seanchan can't take losses but the Shaido can so we tone down Egwene with a sangreal.

[Agitel]

 

 

@Suttree- Um, it describes whole hills blowing up. I think its safe to assume that casualties were that high. Without access to a sangreal.

 

So no quote then? You really need to start supporting some of these claims in various threads.

 

 

Rand observes Egwene and Aviendha channeling before he joins in, remarking that "he could not tell which woman was doing what", but its all there on p624 of the Fires of Heaven. 

 

""Suddenly lightening stabbed down, a jagged silver streak that rent a hilltop below the city. Before the crack of the first bolt reached the tower, two more crackled earthward. Wild forks danced across the sky, but those single lances of brilliant white struck with the regularity of a heartbeat. Abruptly, ground exploded where no lightening had fallen, fountaining fifty feet, then again somewhere else, and again."

 

I fail to see how this could not kill hundreds of men in seconds. This is more like a heavy artillery barrage than magic. Each explosion would throw up shrapnel that would scythe men to pieces apart from the sheer force of the blast. Almost like those mines they used in WW1 to blow up german trenches by tunneling under them; its very reminiscent of that. Whilst lightening has a similar explosive effect when it blows a hilltop up. All as quickly as a heartbeat without stopping? There are bits after this but its much less clear what is Rand and what isn't. That is still really impressive.  

 

But remember, this is Egwene without access to a sangreal. Yet, she only manages to kill a few raken and soldiers? Coz Mary Sue Seanchan can't take losses but the Shaido can so we tone down Egwene with a sangreal.

 

 

Units moving in tight formation on land that doesn't even know she exists with no possible means of even the weakest defense against her versus a dozens of air units moving about the tower individually, each likely with at least one damane still on it. Egwene could obviously overpower any one damane, but if there were many, she'd have to contend with multiple fronts at once. She'd obviously overpower any one easily, but put enough up there and she'd have to divide her flows up as much as she can.

[Suttree]

Thanks for the quote.

 

1. The hills aren't totally destroyed, the ground is rent.

 

2. There is nothing to indicate each of those strikes would kill 300 men at a time, even if they were packed together tightly.

 

3. The situations are so different that the comparison is not useful for this discussion.

[False Dragon1991]

 

 

 

@Suttree- Um, it describes whole hills blowing up. I think its safe to assume that casualties were that high. Without access to a sangreal.

 

So no quote then? You really need to start supporting some of these claims in various threads.

 

 

Rand observes Egwene and Aviendha channeling before he joins in, remarking that "he could not tell which woman was doing what", but its all there on p624 of the Fires of Heaven. 

 

""Suddenly lightening stabbed down, a jagged silver streak that rent a hilltop below the city. Before the crack of the first bolt reached the tower, two more crackled earthward. Wild forks danced across the sky, but those single lances of brilliant white struck with the regularity of a heartbeat. Abruptly, ground exploded where no lightening had fallen, fountaining fifty feet, then again somewhere else, and again."

 

I fail to see how this could not kill hundreds of men in seconds. This is more like a heavy artillery barrage than magic. Each explosion would throw up shrapnel that would scythe men to pieces apart from the sheer force of the blast. Almost like those mines they used in WW1 to blow up german trenches by tunneling under them; its very reminiscent of that. Whilst lightening has a similar explosive effect when it blows a hilltop up. All as quickly as a heartbeat without stopping? There are bits after this but its much less clear what is Rand and what isn't. That is still really impressive.  

 

But remember, this is Egwene without access to a sangreal. Yet, she only manages to kill a few raken and soldiers? Coz Mary Sue Seanchan can't take losses but the Shaido can so we tone down Egwene with a sangreal.

 

 

Units moving in tight formation on land versus a hundred air units moving about the tower individually, each likely with at least one damane still on it. Egwene could obviously overpower any one damane, but if there were many, she'd have to contend with multiple fronts at once. She'd obviously overpower any one easily, but put enough up there and she'd have to divide her flows up as much as she can.

 

 

 

There were only fifty damane and a lot of those were also in the tower itself to capture Aes Sedai so the whole force wasn't focusing on killing Egwene. The way I read it was that the Seanchan literally could not touch her and that it was just a question of blowing the seanchan up as quickly as possible. So the only issue I see is hitting the raken. Which has been done a few times by average Aes Sedai. This also presumes that Egwene doesn't just weave larger columns of fire or forked lightening to make hitting them much easier.

[False Dragon1991]

Thanks for the quote.

 

1. The hills aren't totally destroyed, the ground is rent.

 

2. There is nothing to indicate each of those strikes would kill 300 men at a time, even if they were packed together tightly.

 

Not each perhaps. But a succession of strikes like that as fast as that would. Plus, this is without access to a sangreal. 

 

I just think the handful she kills is really at odds with the portrayel of her as having this OMG moment with a sangreal. I may be wrong but the only other sangreal we have seen is Callandor and thats enough to blow up a city. Even a normal sangreal should give her the ability to blow up the tiny Seanchan strike force in the air. Not kill a handful of Seanchan. Its not an impressive achievement even though its made out as one. Rands ashaman grunts were capturing damane and killing their soldiers like it was going out of fashion in one of the books.

 

Plus if Egwene had issues with accuracy I don't know why she didn't just cut all of the damane from the source since this only requires line of sight and she can't "miss" with such an attack. Indeed, sensing the women attacking her channeling should render the issues of the night attack moot; making them easy to detect with the glowing auras of magic. Actually, wouldn't it be really easy to cut a suldam from the source since she isn't holding the source but needs the connection to use an adam? That would be an easy way to cripple the seanchan since they can't channel without the suldam's sayso.

[Agitel]

 

 

 

 

@Suttree- Um, it describes whole hills blowing up. I think its safe to assume that casualties were that high. Without access to a sangreal.

 

So no quote then? You really need to start supporting some of these claims in various threads.

 

 

Rand observes Egwene and Aviendha channeling before he joins in, remarking that "he could not tell which woman was doing what", but its all there on p624 of the Fires of Heaven. 

 

""Suddenly lightening stabbed down, a jagged silver streak that rent a hilltop below the city. Before the crack of the first bolt reached the tower, two more crackled earthward. Wild forks danced across the sky, but those single lances of brilliant white struck with the regularity of a heartbeat. Abruptly, ground exploded where no lightening had fallen, fountaining fifty feet, then again somewhere else, and again."

 

I fail to see how this could not kill hundreds of men in seconds. This is more like a heavy artillery barrage than magic. Each explosion would throw up shrapnel that would scythe men to pieces apart from the sheer force of the blast. Almost like those mines they used in WW1 to blow up german trenches by tunneling under them; its very reminiscent of that. Whilst lightening has a similar explosive effect when it blows a hilltop up. All as quickly as a heartbeat without stopping? There are bits after this but its much less clear what is Rand and what isn't. That is still really impressive.  

 

But remember, this is Egwene without access to a sangreal. Yet, she only manages to kill a few raken and soldiers? Coz Mary Sue Seanchan can't take losses but the Shaido can so we tone down Egwene with a sangreal.

 

 

Units moving in tight formation on land versus a hundred air units moving about the tower individually, each likely with at least one damane still on it. Egwene could obviously overpower any one damane, but if there were many, she'd have to contend with multiple fronts at once. She'd obviously overpower any one easily, but put enough up there and she'd have to divide her flows up as much as she can.

 

 

 

There were only fifty damane and a lot of those were also in the tower itself to capture Aes Sedai so the whole force wasn't focusing on killing Egwene. The way I read it was that the Seanchan literally could not touch her and that it was just a question of blowing the seanchan up as quickly as possible. So the only issue I see is hitting the raken. Which has been done a few times by average Aes Sedai. This also presumes that Egwene doesn't just weave larger columns of fire or forked lightening to make hitting them much easier.

 

 

Calling down lightning strikes from the sky is possible, but strikes would be random within a given area, and I'd imagine they'd travel the path of least resistance: through the Tower itself, given that it's also the highest point and is grounded. Actually targeting a bolt of lightning would require weaving a conduit between herself and the raken, which is a fast moving target.

 

While Sanderson isn't much of a tactician, and you've had qualms with the Seanchan under Jordan as well, I do think you're letting your biases get in the way here.

[False Dragon1991]

 

 

Calling down lightning strikes from the sky is possible, but strikes would be random within a given area, and I'd imagine they'd travel the path of least resistance: through the Tower itself, given that it's also the highest point and is grounded. Actually targeting a bolt of lightning would require weaving a conduit between herself and the raken, which is a fast moving target.

 

While Sanderson isn't much of a tactician, and you've had qualms with the Seanchan under Jordan as well, I do think you're letting your biases get in the way here.

 

 

Cut the suldam and damane from the source then. You can't run away from that. As good as dead then. 

 

Fire and air would kill them just as well. She doesn't need to be accurate when she can just fill the air with either element indiscriminately. 

 

A sangreal should give you more than a token boost in killing power. Rand killed every trolloc in the stone using callandor and that can level a city. A "normal" sangreal should still provide a colossal boost to enable her to target the foe. If flying meant you could ignore the attacks of really powerful channelers then why don't trollocs and myrdaal have wings?

[Suttree]

 then why don't trollocs and myrdaal have wings?

 

Becaue then they would be called Draghkar.

[False Dragon1991]

 

 then why don't trollocs and myrdaal have wings?

 

Becaue then they would be called Draghkar.

 

 

If they could all fly then they would have a huge advantage because they could ignore any fire from channeling wouldn't they? Or would Egwene only have done the same amount of damage to the Seanchan if they were on the ground instead? 

[Gnarlhorn]

 

 

 then why don't trollocs and myrdaal have wings?

 

Becaue then they would be called Draghkar.

 

 

If they could all fly then they would have a huge advantage because they could ignore any fire from channeling wouldn't they? Or would Egwene only have done the same amount of damage to the Seanchan if they were on the ground instead? 

 

Well the interesting thing about that is that all the scenes with Draghkar that I can remember involve them being shot down quite easily, both by archers and channelers.  I don't have the best memory though so I could be wrong.

[MasterAblar]

The White Tower is sort of a huge structure. Egwene can only channel at what she sees, and she could only see a tiny fraction of the enemy forces at a time. And considering it's nightime that's even more restricted. Egwene is inside the tower not outside. In other words she doesn't have a full view of the Tower and all the raken flying around. Unless she could come up with a sort of seeker weave like Rand did in the Stone of Tear, she can't just take them all out at once.  And besides I doubt the Seanchan are just lining up nicely for her to shoot down. They're passing by at great speed, firing their own weaves at her. She could have been using the Choedan Kal and it would have made no difference. Egwene's effectiveness was limited by restricted vision. For all their superhuman powers, channellers still have very human limits.

[MasterAblar]

 

 

Cut the suldam and damane from the source then. You can't run away from that. As good as dead then. 

 

Fire and air would kill them just as well. She doesn't need to be accurate when she can just fill the air with either element indiscriminately. 

 

A sangreal should give you more than a token boost in killing power. Rand killed every trolloc in the stone using callandor and that can level a city. A "normal" sangreal should still provide a colossal boost to enable her to target the foe. If flying meant you could ignore the attacks of really powerful channelers then why don't trollocs and myrdaal have wings?

 

 

She can't see all the Suldam and Damane at once.

 

Such a massive weave, even if she knew how to do that, could easely get out of control and end up hurting her own side. She's trying to defend the Tower and the city. She can't just send massive destruction flying everywhere.

 

Rand used a weave which came from LTT to target every darkfriend at once inside a structure. That's way beyond Egwene's knowledge. If she had AoL knowledge, then her performance would denitely been poor. As it is she does not.

[clutzyninja]

 

 

 

Calling down lightning strikes from the sky is possible, but strikes would be random within a given area, and I'd imagine they'd travel the path of least resistance: through the Tower itself, given that it's also the highest point and is grounded. Actually targeting a bolt of lightning would require weaving a conduit between herself and the raken, which is a fast moving target.

 

While Sanderson isn't much of a tactician, and you've had qualms with the Seanchan under Jordan as well, I do think you're letting your biases get in the way here.

 

 

Cut the suldam and damane from the source then. You can't run away from that. As good as dead then. 

 

Fire and air would kill them just as well. She doesn't need to be accurate when she can just fill the air with either element indiscriminately. 

 

A sangreal should give you more than a token boost in killing power. Rand killed every trolloc in the stone using callandor and that can level a city. A "normal" sangreal should still provide a colossal boost to enable her to target the foe. If flying meant you could ignore the attacks of really powerful channelers then why don't trollocs and myrdaal have wings?

 

It did give Egwene a huge boost in power, but she could only use that power to create weaves she was already familiar with, and then only against enemies she could see.  Rand had/has LTT teaching him game breaker weaves in the back of his head, and allows him to cast them intuitively.  One of those weaves happened to be an autonomous SHADOWSPAWN seeking weave.  Egwene did not have this luxury.  Even if she knew that partucular weave, it most likely would not have worked against other humans wielding the OP.

[Agitel]

Shielding sul'dam wouldn't do anything. They aren't connected to the source through their own link. They aren't even channeling through the damane.

 

The Tower was just in a poor state, too. They weren't even at whatever normal readiness they should be at. Fain's influence, Forsaken and Black Ajah meddling, Elaida's blundering, and the Tower focusing on the enemy just outside the gate made it ripe for the plucking. It's not like the Seanchan did this with the Tower in its normal state.