[Regimental Book Discussion] What is the most useful item that Mat has acquired?

[BFG]

This discussion covers all books through The Towers of Midnight. Do NOT post anything from AMoL!

 

Mat has acquired several very useful items on his travels through Randland.  In your opinion which is the most useful and why?  If there's something I've missed off the list, just let me know and I'll edit it in. 

 

For this poll I don't think it's possible to not talk about very important events in Towers, so unlike the last discussion where we tried to keep events from Book 10 onwards in spoiler tags, that won't be possible here.

 

You have been warned

 

 

 

As it is the books that brought us here, it shall be the books that keep us here! Thus, we will be participating in monthly regimental book discussions! Each month, one of the regiments will host a discussion based on the books and the Band of the Red Hand. However, every fourth month, a member of the Senior Staff will begin a discussion on the main Band boards which will encompass either a new topic, or a review of the three topics discussed by each regiment. These discussions can concentrate solely on Mat or other characters that we meet through the Band of the Red Hand, or other battle like circumstances that have effected the Band, but they must have a connection to the Band of the Red Hand in order to be considered a valid Regimental Book Discussion.

Rules:
-In order to gain points in these discussions, you must post at least three thoughtful posts during the month (considered to be the 1st - 25th of each month (Since this is being posted so late, I'm going to ask that this is extended until the 25th of July)). You can earn a maximum of 25 points per month by participating in these discussions. 
-Each post can receive up to five points, depending on complexity, thoughtfulness and accuracy, for a maximum of 25 points.
-Points will be awarded by the C-G hosting the regiment with the aid of the MG/UC.
-The discussion must involve the Band of the Red Hand in the Books or be connected to the Band of the Red Hand.

 

 

 

[BFG]

His hat - because (not only does) 'he wear a hat now, hat's are cool'.  It also saved him from severe sunburn and possible dehydration in the Aiel Waste.

Ashandarei - not only does it suit his fighting style, he used it to fight Couladin, but it was also completely necessary for escaping the Tower of Ghenjei, upon which (according to Mins viewings) the future of the world hinged.

Foxhead medallion - protects Mat from direct contact of the Power, but doesn't stop objects thrown with the Power such as poo.  EDITED IN: kept Mat and Elayne alive against the gholam

The ring - this is one of the things that Tuon notices and one of the reasons she allows Mat to 'kidnap' her.  It's possible that this could be argued to be the basis of their relationship,  or at the least the first domino: without the ring she wouldn't have been kidnapped, she wouldn't have married Mat, she wouldn't have any ties with the heroes and would be a straight out disastor - can we imagine that meeting with Rand going any worse?

Dice - his entire fortune was built on these, without the fortune he couldn't pay us (the Band)

Memories - without these would he have his victories, the band?..

Other - in case I've missed anything out.

[edited in

 

the dagger - this is loosely connected with Mats luck (he notices that despite always being lucky it increases drastically after he's been healed in TV).  More importantly Fain uses it to stab Rand.  It's the 'sealing' off of this wound and the 'fight' between the two evils that allowed him to cleanse saidin.

 

The Horn of Valere - used at Falme to save all three taveren.  Inspired the name of our XO.  Is presumably needed for the Last Battle...]


Yes, I'm being evil and only allowing you one choice.

[WolfbrotherKronos]

So many of these would work - but BFG is being evil.  I think the Ashanderai is it.  Future of the world - yeah...

[BFG]

Even eviler

 

You may want to check the edit.

 

I just had a thought - the medallion kept Mat alive against the gholam, without it he wouldn't have been alive to enter the Tower...

[Andrej]

I voted for the memories.

 

While I agree the Foxhead and Ashanderai are important, I believe the memories made Mat into the leader that he became. Those memories of generals past gave him the ability to organize and deploy the forces against the Shaido which was, IMO, the turning point of that conflict. And so formed the Band. Which created the Dragons. Which... well, that'll wait for another discussion

 

While it could be argued that without the medallion or Ashanderai, Mat wouldn't have lived to enter the Tower. The counter argument would be that without the memories he would've never made it that far based on the order of events.

[BFG]

I'm going to argue against you (there's a surprise)...

 

Without the memories Mat would have made it out of Cairhien before the battles.  So at that particular point he would have been safer without the memories.  However with both the medallion against the gholam and the ashanderai at the Tower he would have been dead (or worse) then and there without that particular object. 

[dicetosser1]

But without the memories he would not have been able to use the ashandarei as well as he did.  Theres a part that talks about him being grateful for the memories as they made the way of this weapon familiar. may have been SR.

 

Thus without those memories Couladin would have killed him

 

As for him leaving Carhien if not for the memories??  Come on  this is mat we are talking about!!  he wouldnt have left them helpless with or without the memories

[Direwolf Jon]

I have to agree with AJ and Dice, I think the memories are the best thing that Mat got during his time in Randland.  The memories of those dead long ago, helped Mat win battles, some of which they shouldn't have been able to win, yet he managed it.  This brought a lot of fame a stories were told about the BotRH.  All of these stories brought more and more people to his cause and the way he led some of the battles he was in, like against the Shaido, just made him more of a legend in a sense.  Without those memories, it is unlikely that Mat creates the Band and then we wouldn't have our group to be part of. 

 

I do have to say the foxhead would be the second best thing he got, but I can't make and arguement for that since I already chose the memories.

[Andrej]

The hat is pretty freakin' sweet too though

[dicetosser1]

The memories also gave him help with how to deal with people sometimes. Like that scene where he and tuon go riding and meet up with the Tinkers. MAT knew nothing about the tinkers. Perrin was the one that had dealt with them yet he knew about the Madhi and how to greet them and everything. He also had the correct view of them which as a country backwater boy he probably wouldn't be expected to have.

[BFG]

But without the memories he would not have been able to use the ashandarei as well as he did.  Theres a part that talks about him being grateful for the memories as they made the way of this weapon familiar. may have been SR.

 

Thus without those memories Couladin would have killed him

 

As for him leaving Carhien if not for the memories??  Come on  this is mat we are talking about!!  he wouldnt have left them helpless with or without the memories

 

As of tDR Mat can beat two incredibly good swordsmen.  Granted neither Galad or Gawyn are as good as they could be, but equally at the time Mat's barely able to stand after the first couple of minutes.  So his innate skill and luck put him in the very top tier of fighters already.  The chief things Mat seems to take from the memories seems to be that a General shouldn't be fighting (echoed by Demandred at the Cleansing)

 

KoD 37

 

“Should you not be donning your armor. Highness?”

   “I don’t intend getting close enough to the fighting to need armor. A general who draws his sword has put aside his baton and become a common soldier.”

 

And this is where I start talking in circles...

 

As much as I hate to say it, Mat's a huge contradiction of fierce loyalty and selfishness.  Out of all the Emond Fielders his reaction to Rand being able to channel was the absolute worst.  He's been trying to leave Rand for a long time at this point - the only reason he's still with him is because the pattern needs him to go to Rhuidean to get those three items, all of which are vital (I'm really not saying that the memories are unimportant).  Without the memories he'd have been perfectly capable of seeing the danger, warning the others and leaving.  It's also possible that if he didn't have the memories the pattern wouldn't have needed him to stay and would have let him leave. 

 

Also, note that despite the memories his intention was to stay out of the fighting, it was his 'luck' that sent him to them.  Additionally the reason that they started to follw him was because a, he was a friend of the DR and b, because Mat needed them to.  So they'd have been around him regardless of the memories - not as many would have lived, and not as many would have joined, but for the battle against Couladin which (through ToM) is the only significant battle the Band has been in, he'd have had the exact same group. 

 

If this had happened then the suggestions seem to be that at some point in the future Mat would have died, but we don't know when or how.

 

 

 

I have to agree with AJ and Dice, I think the memories are the best thing that Mat got during his time in Randland.  The memories of those dead long ago, helped Mat win battles, some of which they shouldn't have been able to win, yet he managed it.  This brought a lot of fame a stories were told about the BotRH.  All of these stories brought more and more people to his cause and the way he led some of the battles he was in, like against the Shaido, just made him more of a legend in a sense.  Without those memories, it is unlikely that Mat creates the Band and then we wouldn't have our group to be part of. 

 

I do have to say the foxhead would be the second best thing he got, but I can't make and arguement for that since I already chose the memories.

 

I actually think the ashanderai was more important than the foxhead.  The foxhead hasn't really helped him with anything - he still died from the lightning attack at Caemlyn, still had poo flung at him and it almost got Elayne killed in Towers (although that was also Elayne nearly getting Elayne killed).  The only thing it's proved really useful for was against the gholam, but that's pretty big, that's a situation where instead of some indefinable point in the future where he would have died, he would have died then and there without it.  At least it was before Elayne bonded Rand so he wouldn't have gone completely psycho then.

 

The hat is pretty freakin' sweet too though

 

Don't underestimate dehydration and sunburn

 

The memories also gave him help with how to deal with people sometimes. Like that scene where he and tuon go riding and meet up with the Tinkers. MAT knew nothing about the tinkers. Perrin was the one that had dealt with them yet he knew about the Madhi and how to greet them and everything. He also had the correct view of them which as a country backwater boy he probably wouldn't be expected to have.

 

Agreed it's a useful secondary thing, but not hugely significant.  Also curious as to what you mean by the 'correct view'?

 

I should say I'm only really playing devils advocate, I haven't made up my mind yet or voted.

[dicetosser1]

you DO realise the dying from the lightning attack is a continuity error right?  According to Jordans rules of Balefire Mat did NOT die at that point.

 

INITIALLY they listened to him cause he was the LDs friend but they ended up FOLLOWING him because he won and the way he won   time after time. That was due to the memories

[BFG]

Poll has been modified again

 

Dagger - loosely connected with Mats luck

 

Horn of Valere - keeps it from the bad guys and, you know, Falme...

[BFG]

*Just got eviller*

 

So the chief argument for the battle memories at the moment seems to be that out of the list they kept him alive first, so the rest of it wouldn't matter without it (except, of course, for the hat :)

 

So having been reminded of a certain object...  The thing that kept him alive first was the Horn of Valere.  After that it's been a bit useless, but...

 

Dice - *rolls up sleeves* According to Jordan Mat did die at that point. 

 

 

 

Interview: Apr 5th, 1996

Balticon XXX - Bill Garrett (Paraphrased)

 

Robert Jordan

Mat's amulet blocks both saidin and saidar. Jordan answered this one straight-out when asked. He pointed out that the amulet only blocks actual weavings of the One Power, not the physical effects that could be caused by a weaving. For example, Elayne was able to use the One Power to hurl a rock at Mat. Rahvin was able to create a bolt of lightning which struck Mat. (Jordan noted that Mat's death by lightning and subsequent undoing of his death when Rand balefired Rahvin, fulfills a prophecy about living, dying, and then living again.)

 

 

 

The fact that Rand 'brought him back' is irrelevent to the fact that it didn't prevent him dying from an attack originating in the OP, not forgetting the poo.

 

 

I'm also going to argue the 'time after time'...  He fought with them at Cairhien.  The he marched them as a decoy against Illian, but didn't actually do any fighting.  Then he left them a while trailing Eg where they picked up a lot of people who didn't have anywhere else to go and didn't want to join an AS army.  They then got caught up in Murandy, a small group went to find him after escaping the Seanchan, but by this point the groups more or less at it's biggest.  They didn't stay because he kept winning, they stayed because he was taveran and he needed them to stay (even if he wasn't there to tell them that). 

 

The Cairhien victory was very impressive tho and is a large reason why they didn't leave. 

 

 

[dicetosser1]

yet Jordans rules say that anything that is hit with balefire ceases to exist from before that point   how far depends on how strong the balefire   causing any actions taken in that pre time to NOT HAPPEN. Rand is VERY strong. therefore his Balefire would have caused rahvins lightning to NEVER HAPPEN.;  Hence RJ broke his own rules.

 

hence .....baguette

 

 

 

wins

[BFG]

(Dice) fails - almost an epic fail. 

 

Logic trumped by prophecy and RJ himself. 

 

thus...

 

 

panini

 

 

[dicetosser1]

RJ messed up

 

you cant set the rules and then ignore them

[BFG]

Don't think it's really breaking the rule.

 

tFoH

 

Remembering what had happened before, Rand darted to one side as he channeled, the shaft of liquid white fire streaking by the door as it destroyed the Shadowspawn. He had tried to make it less this time, to confine the destruction to the Darkhounds, but the thick wall at the far end of the chamber had a shadowed hole in it. Not all the way through, he thought – it was hard to tell by moonlight – but he would have to fine his control of this weapon.
   The bronze sheathing on the door was tattered and torn as though the teeth and toenails of the Darkhounds really had been steel; lamplight shone through a number of small holes. There were pawprints in the floorstones, but surprisingly few. Releasing saidin, he found a place where he would not cut his hand to shreds and pounded on the door. Suddenly the pain in his side was very real and present; he took a deep breath and tried to thrust it away. "Mat? It's me, Rand! Open up, Mat!"
   After a moment, the door opened a crack, letting out a spill of lamplight; Mat peered through doubtfully, then pulled the door wider, leaning against it as if he had run ten miles carrying a sack of rocks. Except for a silver foxhead medallion hanging around his neck, its eye shaped and shaded like the ancient Aes Sedai symbol, he was naked. The way Mat felt about Aes Sedai, Rand was surprised he had not sold the thing long since. Deeper in the room, a tall, golden-haired woman was calmly wrapping a blanket around herself. A Maiden, by the spears and buckler lying at her feet.
   Rand hastily averted his eyes and cleared his throat. "I just wanted to make sure you were all right."
   "We're fine." Uneasily, Mat looked around the antechamber. "Now we are. You killed it, or something? I don't want to know what it was, as long as it's gone. It's bloody hard on a man sometimes, being your friend."
   Not only a friend. Another ta'veren, and perhaps a key to victory in Tarmon Gai'don; anyone who wanted to strike at Rand had reason to strike at Mat, as well. But Mat always tried to deny both things. "They're gone, Mat. Darkhounds. Three of them."
   "I told you I didn't want to know," Mat groaned. "Darkhounds now. I can't say it isn't always something new around you. A man wouldn't get bored; not until the day he died. If I hadn't been on my feet for a drink of wine when the door started to open..." He trailed off, shivering, and scratched a red place on his right arm as he studied the ravaged metal sheathing. "You know, it's funny how the mind plays tricks. When I was putting everything I had into holding this door shut, I could have sworn one of them had chewed a hole right through it. I could see its bloody head. And its teeth. Melindhra's spear didn't even faze it."

 

tFoH

 

Tucking his harp under his arm, Asmodean drifted away from Mat and Aviendha. He enjoyed playing, but not for a pair who did not listen, much less appreciate. He was not sure what had happened that morning, and not sure he wanted to be sure. Too many Aiel had expressed surprise at seeing him, had claimed they had seen him dead; he did not want details. There was a long gash down the wall in front of him. He knew what made that sharp edge, that surface as slick as ice, smoother than any hand could have polished in a hundred years.
   Idly – but with a shiver, too – he wondered whether being reborn in this fashion made him a new man. He did not think so. Immortality was gone. That was a gift of the Great Lord; he used that name in his head, whatever al'Thor demanded on his tongue. That was proof enough that he was himself. Immortality gone – he knew it must be imagination, yet sometimes he thought he could feel time dragging at him, pulling him toward a grave he had never thought to meet – and drawing the little of saidinhe could was like drinking sewage. He was hardly sorry Lanfear was dead. Rahvin neither, but Lanfear especially, for what she had done to him. He would laugh when each of the others died, too, and most for the last. It was not that he had been reborn as a new man at all, but he would cling to that tuft of grass on the cliff's brink as long as he could. The roots would give way eventually, the long fall would come, but until then he was still alive.
   He pulled open a small door, intending to find his way to the pantry. There should be some decent wine. One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face.
   "You? No!" The word still hung in the air when death took him.

 

tGS

 

"No. . . ." he whispered in horror as his hand, against his will, cut off her air. Min stumbled, and he unwillingly forced her down to the ground, easily ignoring her struggles. He loomed above her, pressing his hand against her throat, gripping it and choking her. She looked at him, eyes beginning to bulge.

...

Rand squeezed harder, leaning down for leverage, his fingers squeezing Min's skin and pushing down on her throat. It was as if he gripped his own heart, and the world became black around him, everything darkened except for Min. He could feel her pulse throbbing beneath his fingers.

...

He scrambled for saidin, but could not take it. He tried with every bit of will he had to relax his fingers, but they just continued to squeeze. He felt horror, he felt her pain. Min's face grew purple, her eyes fluttered.

...

Rand raised a hand and, filled with the power he did not understand, wove a single weave. A bar of pure white light, a cleansing fire, burst from his hand and struck Semirhage in the chest. She flashed and vanished, leaving a faint afterimage to Rand's vision. Her bracelet dropped to the floor.

 

...
[Cads pov]

 

Min looked up. There were red marks on her neck, the beginnings of bruises. Rand did not turn from the window. Insolent boy, Cadsuane thought, coming farther into the room. "Speak up, boy!" she said. "We need to know if the camp is in danger."

 

The effects of balefire are pretty consistent, although impossible.  Balefire takes people back to a point of time before the events happened, but the events that do happen aren't completely erased.  People remember Asmodeon being dead, and by extension Mat and Avi and the others caught up in it.  Mat remembers the darkhounds drool, Mins bruises don't go away.

 

Regardless this isn't the point.  Mats foxhead doesn't protect him from indirect weaves of the power.  But since neither of us think that the foxhead is the most useful item he has, agree to disagree?

 

 

 

 

Also, since you keep dodging the question.  The first item he had that saved his life, thus without it he wouldn't live long enough to need the others, was actually the Horn of Valere.  So are you changing your answer?

[Izabella]

While I actually agree on all points, I do thing that Mat's ring was the most vital, or at least vital in bringing his own prophesy into fruition. If it hadn't been for the ring, Tuon would never have let him "kidnap" her, and if that hadn't happened ... spoiler to the last book:
 

they never would have gotten married, allowing Mat to lead the Seanchan into the Last Battle

 

[BFG]

I'm probably going to revive this discussion once we're allowed to talk spoiler free :)

 

Even without the spoiler tag, your comment is extremely valid.  But maybe it could have happened another way? 

 

I'm wondering if I dismissed the dagger to easily.

 

It's loosely connected to Mats luck (Mat comments that his luck increased after his healing at TV) - which is then loosely connected to so much else, it's saved his life multiple times, found him money which enables him to pay the Band, forget the memories no armies going to stay together for no pay (at least not when the LB is still a distant thing, which for most people it is). 

 

But perhaps more importantly, the dagger ended up with Fain who used it to stab Rand.  It's this that showed him how to cleanse the Source.  Without it Rand could/would/is mad at the Last Battle, the Ashaman are also insane and since they're only really trained as weapons this is a bad thing. 

[Izabella]

I suppose it could, but I am not sure how... it was one of her all important omens.

[BFG]

It was, but was that the only way possible for her to see that omen.  It's possible that at this stage Mat's the patterns correcting mechanism for the Seanchan not screwing Randland up to much before the LB.  If so, it could have maybe found a way besides that.  Or maybe not. 

[Izabella]

True. If it was a needed sign, maybe it would have happened a different way, 

[BFG]

But then, how much is true for the others. 

 

e.g. Ashanderai

Getting Moiraine has two conflicting outcomes.  Moiraine going through the Rings at Rhuidean sees many outcomes and in some they dont make it out.  But Min sees Moiraine doing something vital to help Rand, her viewing doesn't seem to leave much room for doubting that Moiraine doesn't come back - although I guess Moiraine coming back doesn't have to mean that Mat does.  But since Min is always right, they had to get back.  So does that mean there were other ways for them to make it out, even without the Ashanderai, or is it just impossible for him to have entered without it?

 

the memories

Mat's been speaking the Old Tongue (albeit not fluently) since tEotW, and given his battlecry there's a stong suspicion that he's either Aemon reborn or a direct descendent.  So since Aemon was a renowned warrior, and sort of won a victory that should have been impossible, maybe without the trip to Rhuidean he could have gotten the memories that way (not as good, but maybe good enough).

 

etc, etc, etc

[BridMorgan]

Points counted to here ~ Brid