Why the wheel of time is Almost epic ( IMO)

[Tarvalantarverann]

I may get some hate here but no matter.

 

First issue is with the three girls, annoying as hell, double standards everywhere, irrational at every oppourtunity, nyneaves choice to hate moiraine for doing that nasty, nasty thing of saving all of their lives many times! Stupid girl... I recall one moment in book three where the girls lift mat off his feet after he sets them free, without so much as a thank you and stalk off on him, then in the next book the girls are furious when rand does the same to them, how dare he! And then egwene fights a pinch on the bum with what she considers a 1-100? Woah that escalated quickly :/.

 

Next is the way the three lads are made to be completely blind to anything female, and also the point is made at every opportunity how each thinks the other two are much better with girls... Wtf? He says it like 50 times throughout. if only one boy asked another some advice they would quickly figure out how useless they all were. They are always slow and a step or two behind the girls, whether its romantic or plot oriented they are regularly left scratching their arses wondering wtf. Mind I'm only onto book 4 and hoping it will get better.

 

The constant rejection of their talents Is infuriating from Perrin and Rand. The way Perrin try's to fight off the wolves is embarrassing, and I was beggining to think that damn rand would keep denying he was the dragon till he bloody died! Waa waa I just want to go to the farm and see my daddy.

 

Mat I think is the best of the three because he readily embarrassed his power, even though it wasn't an in your face power as the others at least he didn't go off denying he had really good luck! Imagine being able to talk to wolves! Let alone hear, see and smell like them, the way Perrin acts is foolish and annoying when any boy would eat it up.

 

Secrets also shroud everything, people leave out important details in messages, or simply don't say anything at all, till too late or just in time, it doesn't add to excitement unfortunately just makes them all look really dumb.

 

Besides all this there is some awesome plot line. I just can't reconcile with what I see as fatal character flaws, I'm so annoyed listening to nyneave I have to skip, for example.

 

Listening to mat, or loial, who is my favourite character, probably because he just sits in the background quietly and busts heads when needed otherwise taking notes, he's really cool, but these are my favourite parts, and why I keep listening.

 

I must say if I was the dragon reborn I would be raising mountains, breathing fire, destroying armies and making love to all three of those girls, haha I hope this gets better!

[Rhienne]

 

Besides all this there is some awesome plot line. I just can't reconcile with what I see as fatal character flaws, I'm so annoyed listening to nyneave I have to skip, for example.

The majority of fans think Nynaeve improves fairly drastically from mid-series onwards (around book 7), even those who couldn't stand her in the first few books.  You can see from the poll on favourite characters here that she is second only to Mat in popularity.

 

 

Secrets also shroud everything, people leave out important details in messages, or simply don't say anything at all, till too late or just in time, it doesn't add to excitement unfortunately just makes them all look really dumb.

 I'm afraid this is a major theme of the series, and in particular book 6.  I can't say it really gets much better, although you do start to get some isolated examples of key characters cooperating and sharing knowledge.

[Zanarky]

You really have to keep in mind the context of the series. None of them from Emond's Field had ever even seen an Aes Sedai, and everything that they had heard about them was bad. I don't think Nynaeve's feelings towards Moiraine are unwarranted when she storms into Emond's Field, and takes off with Rand, Perrin, Mat, and Egwene.

 

The whole thing about the other two thinking that the third is better with women...it's a pretty simple running joke. I enjoyed it actually. I thought it showed really well how men don't typically talk to other men about their romantic involvements. It reflected pretty well on our own society.

 

A common theme for the entire series is the power and strength of women. There's a lot of pressure on Egwene, Nynaeve and Elayne to act a certain way. They don't want to act like some scared little girls who are Novices. They want to act their station and earn respect for what they are training to become. That means stepping on some toes along the way.

 

Perrin himself is the most level-headed of the three, and I think he's also the most resistant to change. For him to start becoming something entirely different is a huge step. It's understandable for him to be conflicted about it. Later events will exacerbate that. It's easy to think that if you were in that position, you'd just embrace it and go all wolf-like, but that wouldn't really make for much of a plot in a series like this.

 

As the series progresses, the characters grow as well. Book 4 is still very early on when you remember that it's a 14 book series. Those characters that you don't quite understand at this point will grow and evolve into characters so intricate and diverse that you will feel like you know them in real life.

 

I hope you stick with the series, and come to enjoy every character in it for who they are and who they become. It really is worth the time.

[Tarvalantarverann]

I can understand why she would be bitter to begin with, but once the scope of it all becomes apparent she really should get over it and be thanking moiraine on her hands and knees for saving them all, not to mention bringing Lan into her life, amirite?

 

The girls seem to me petulant rather than empowered. I'm all for being badass, seeing as they are all powerful, but they are also spiteful and jealous, ignorant and obnoxious. Like how nyaeve starts playing mind tricks with Lan right before they leave The Stone, telling him half truths or leading him on, then commanding him, telling him he must obey her, even when he is not her warder, she came off as superior, treated him like a dog, and all that to a man she loves! Elayne and egwene playing mind tricks with Rand. Falcon first tricks Loial into taking her by the ways, which she obviously had to do for the stories sake, but afterwards she forces Perrin to come licking her hand like a dog asking permission to be able to walk with them... sure she was upset but this is his family at stake and all she can think about is herself.

 

The fact that Perrin is scared of the change is all well and good, but he isn't just cautious of change, he outright rejects it like if he ignores it will dissapear, like a man with a broken paddle rejecting the idea that he is not moving anywhere.

[Tarvalantarverann]

I really wanted Perrin to stay with Elias for a time and learn about the way of the wolf, I think the series would have been much better if he accepted it early on in that first book and learnt some cool stuff, but I guess the whole idea is that they are just a bunch of kids that don't know what they are doing. That doesn't mean they should get all the help they can rather than trying to do it all by themselves

[Rhienne]

Perrin does learn, and its worth the wait when you see what he gets to with his abilities.  I think his fear of embracing it is completely justifiable.  He's from a village of shepherds where wolves were probably feared, and its not like there are wolfkin everywhere.  Its got to be completely overwhelming for him.  

 

I'm not going to defend the supergirls too much because they all have extremely irritating faults which seem to dominate a lot of their scenes for the first 6 books or so.  Nynaeve's bullying and temper, and Egwene's petty spitefulness do get better.  A lot of people feel that Elayne retains her sense of superiority and arrogance throughout the series though, although I have to confess that I quite like her.  I think you seem to have much stronger negative reactions towards these characters than most people - I have never seen anyone comment on the Stone of Tear episode with Nynaeve and Lan as being Nynaeve treating Lan badly; on the contrary she is preventing Lan from treating Moiraine badly by breaking his vows to her.  Yes, Egwene and Elayne are maybe a little manipulative, but I don't think they have any malicious purpose, and Rand seems to be quite happy with how things turn out.

 

I have to say if you are finding the girls this irritating at book 4 you may struggle with books 5-6, although things do get much better from there on.

[EmperorAllspice]

Cept for Egwene. Maybe. I found she got worse AFTER book 5. Until then she was quite likeable.

 

The WOT fandom is really weird about what characters are and aren't likeable at any given time

[Norseman]

Almost epic, or rather "could so easily have been epic" is where I'm at too.

 

I'm currently on my third and final re-read, after first picking up the three first books in 1991, thinking it was a trilogy like every other fantasy series of the time.  How wrong I was.

 

Right now I'm half-way through Lord of Chaos and these five and a half books have been a mixed pleasure to say the least.  Like the OP says, beneath it all there is an "awesome plot line", but at the same time I have found myself skipping and skimming forwards time and time and time again.  And I never skip and skim, unless I've read a book many times before.

 

Why?  First, because all the female protagonists, bar Min, have been cut from the same deeply unpleasant length of cloth.  I'm sure the subject has been beaten to death, so I won't go on, only say that Nynaeve is easily my least favourite major character in any book or series I can think of.  Second, the interaction between all the main characters is entirely too similar to the interaction that can often be observed in a kindergarten sand pit.  Pettiness, bitchiness, cruelty, distrust and utter stupidity.  Over and over and over again.  And finally: nobugger ever changes.  Ever.  Six books, where, from leading simple farming lives, the main characters have variously fought monsters, travelled the world, fought battles, conquered nations, fought mighty evil sorcerers and sorceresses and much, much more - and yet they are the same, seemingly having learned nothing other than the practical stuff.  They remain as petty, obstinate, juvenile and at times downright stupid as they were in book one.

 

It boggles the mind how the same person who writes everything else so skilfully, could have been so utterly inept at constructing characters, having them develop and having them interact naturally.  Boggles the mind it does.

 

I see it claimed above that the girls will become more likeable later, so I suppose there's hope.  Not that I'll believe it before I read it.

 

Anyway.

 

For me The Wheel of Time is a series which could have been counted among the greatest fantasy series ever, except that the flaws are simply too big - no, too monumental to sweep under the carpet.  Had the series been complete as is in 1991, that much younger me would probably have ignored it all and emerged from book 14 glowering with praise.  I'm not him though; lots of years and thousands of books lie between us and unlike the Emond's Fielders I have learned a thing or two since then.  Still, I will complete the series, if only out of pure stubbornness and because I fully expect Brian Sanderson to have wrought an ending I will thoroughly enjoy.

[EmperorAllspice]

Almost epic, or rather "could so easily have been epic" is where I'm at too.

 

I'm currently on my third and final re-read, after first picking up the three first books in 1991, thinking it was a trilogy like every other fantasy series of the time.  How wrong I was.

 

Right now I'm half-way through Lord of Chaos and these five and a half books have been a mixed pleasure to say the least.  Like the OP says, beneath it all there is an "awesome plot line", but at the same time I have found myself skipping and skimming forwards time and time and time again.  And I never skip and skim, unless I've read a book many times before.

 

Why?  First, because all the female protagonists, bar Min, have been cut from the same deeply unpleasant length of cloth.  I'm sure the subject has been beaten to death, so I won't go on, only say that Nynaeve is easily my least favourite major character in any book or series I can think of.  Second, the interaction between all the main characters is entirely too similar to the interaction that can often be observed in a kindergarten sand pit.  Pettiness, bitchiness, cruelty, distrust and utter stupidity.  Over and over and over again.  And finally: nobugger ever changes.  Ever.  Six books, where, from leading simple farming lives, the main characters have variously fought monsters, travelled the world, fought battles, conquered nations, fought mighty evil sorcerers and sorceresses and much, much more - and yet they are the same, seemingly having learned nothing other than the practical stuff.  They remain as petty, obstinate, juvenile and at times downright stupid as they were in book one.

 

It boggles the mind how the same person who writes everything else so skilfully, could have been so utterly inept at constructing characters, having them develop and having them interact naturally.  Boggles the mind it does.

 

I see it claimed above that the girls will become more likeable later, so I suppose there's hope.  Not that I'll believe it before I read it.

 

Anyway.

 

For me The Wheel of Time is a series which could have been counted among the greatest fantasy series ever, except that the flaws are simply too big - no, too monumental to sweep under the carpet.  Had the series been complete as is in 1991, that much younger me would probably have ignored it all and emerged from book 14 glowering with praise.  I'm not him though; lots of years and thousands of books lie between us and unlike the Emond's Fielders I have learned a thing or two since then.  Still, I will complete the series, if only out of pure stubbornness and because I fully expect Brian Sanderson to have wrought an ending I will thoroughly enjoy.

  

 

Yeah, I'd say that the "Nobody changes" thing ties in closely with what I consider one of the major flaws of the series. The fact that Robert Jordan lingers on concepts and stretches them out far beyond what is necessary for him to make his point. It's repetitive and frustrating.

 

Is there friction between men and women? Let him hammer that in for over 10 books without any visible change being made.

 

The aes sedai aren't as wise as they think they are? Let them spend over 4 books being utterly humiliated and outdone at every turn with no end in sight.

[Rhienne]

To be fair to the characters, they are very young in general.  For the main cast, the three ta'veren are 21, Egwene and Elayne are 19, Aviendha is 19 Tuon is 19, Faile is only 16, Gawyn is 22, etc.  Nynaeve and Min are only a little older in their mid-20s.  I think this does sometimes explain why people often find themselves sympathising more with the younger cast members in their first read, and more with characters like Moiraine, Siuan, and Gareth in later reads.  I know I wasn't a pinnacle of maturity and good sense when I was in my late teens.  And less than 2 years pass between the beginning and end of the series, so there is not a great deal of ageing going on.  Additionally, the main characters are all under massive amounts of stress from various things, and I'm not surprised they take it out on each other.

 

I don't enjoy reading the bickering and pettiness either, and I think it is overdone, but its perhaps more realistic that the characters behave this way.  Of course, you can argue about whether you want completely realistic characters in a high fantasy series.

[Norseman]

To be fair to the characters, they are very young in general.

 

I really don't think they are.  The setting is a traditional fantasy setting, i.e. a late medieval type society, in which, were it our world, a male of 21 would have been counted an adult man for the past 6 or so years.  He'd likely be married, would have long since chosen and established himself in a trade and might have several children.  A woman of 19 brought up in a remote farming community would undoubtedly be married, quite possibly for years, and again might have several children.  She would basically have been in full housewife mode for several years, even years before being married off.

 

So no.  19-25 would not be very young in a society such as the one portrayed, just as it was not very young in the real world at a comparable time.  On the contrary, childhood would have ended abruptly somewhere between 12 and 14, or possibly a little later if times were good.  Hence the characters in question ought to have put away their juvenile bullcrap years ago.

 

Now maybe Robert Jordan didn't think of this and deliberately portrayed the characters as juveniles even though they ought not to have been.  If that's the case, then to my mind it just adds to the negative criticism of the series.  Frankly I find it almost preferable to think that he just didn't know how to do characterisation and personal interaction well.

 

 

I don't enjoy reading the bickering and pettiness either, and I think it is overdone, but its perhaps more realistic that the characters behave this way.  Of course, you can argue about whether you want completely realistic characters in a high fantasy series.

 

Why would you not want realism in high fantasy?  The setting may be different, but the characters are still people.  In fact the setting is the only thing which separates fantasy from science-fiction and either of those from literary fiction or the classics.  Literature is about people, regardless of the backdrop and if the people are not believable, then the literature will never be great.

 

And the people, or rather the main people, of Wheel of Time are simply not believable at all.  So far, that is.  I do hope it changes.

[Tarvalantarverann]

Frankly I find it almost preferable to think that he just didn't know how to do characterisation and personal interaction well.

 

I have to agree with this, IMO he went over board with the strong, empowered woman idea, until it ended up negatively effecting not only the female characters but also the men in the series too. There is a sense that the women are more intelligent and capable than the men, right from the outset, "you great hairy lumox" is a term used often, and usually used when the man isn't doing exactly what it is the woman wants. Also the women bicker among them selves more than anything, Egwene and Nynaeve in book 3/4 as far as I've read, is just fucking stupid. It is clear they are spending too much time together, I often feel this way but when the world is at stake I think you would push it aside wouldn't you? I think the writer wants to put across the idea that Egwene is no longer a little girl from the farm, but this was achieved when she killed those fades, easy, done, now please stop being bitches! Maybe it is realistic because I see women acting like this all the time, not all women mind, just the children and the feminists.

[szilard]

First issue is with the three girls, annoying as hell, double standards everywhere, irrational at every oppourtunity,

 

Better get used to it! (There is no perfect human in real life.)

 

I must say if I was the dragon reborn I would be raising mountains, breathing fire, destroying armies and making love to all three of those girls, haha I hope this gets better!

 

This is not a DnD series (except the last three books).

 

 

I'm currently on my third and final re-read,

at the same time I have found myself skipping and skimming forwards time and time and time again.  And I never skip and skim, unless I've read a book many times before.

 

 

Contradiction. Just sayin' Don't skim: forget about these books and read something else.

 

And finally: nobugger ever changes.  Ever.  Six books, where, from leading simple farming lives, the main characters have variously fought monsters, travelled the world, fought battles, conquered nations, fought mighty evil sorcerers and sorceresses and much, much more - and yet they are the same, seemingly having learned nothing other than the practical stuff.  They remain as petty, obstinate, juvenile and at times downright stupid as they were in book one.

 

First:  998 (EotW) - 1000 (LoC)  (only 649 days)

 

Second: There is one thing that you have to realize about real people: they don’t change. "They just have momentary steps outside of their true character”

 

 

 

[Norseman]

 

I'm currently on my third and final re-read,

at the same time I have found myself skipping and skimming forwards time and time and time again.  And I never skip and skim, unless I've read a book many times before.

 

 

Contradiction. Just sayin' Don't skim: forget about these books and read something else.

 

There's no contradiction there, unless you lack reading comprehension.  And I'll continue skimming: it works perfectly well as far as I'm concerned.  Skipping too.

 

 

And finally: nobugger ever changes.  Ever.  Six books, where, from leading simple farming lives, the main characters have variously fought monsters, travelled the world, fought battles, conquered nations, fought mighty evil sorcerers and sorceresses and much, much more - and yet they are the same, seemingly having learned nothing other than the practical stuff.  They remain as petty, obstinate, juvenile and at times downright stupid as they were in book one.

 

First:  998 (EotW) - 1000 (LoC)  (only 649 days)

 

Second: There is one thing that you have to realize about real people: they don’t change. "They just have momentary steps outside of their true character”

 

 

First: exactly my point.  They go through all sorts of adventures and ordeals for almost two years, without growing up even a little bit.

 

Second: bullcrap.  I don't know you from Adam and hence don't recognize you as the final arbiter on whether or not real people change.  Putting stuff in quotation marks does not give that stuff any additional weight.  I've known a good number of people who have drastically changed in a relatively short time and common to all of them is that they gone through some heavy shit.  Much like certain characters discussed above.

 

But no, you're not likely to change much if you don't do or experience much.  Which most people don't.

[Suttree]

 First: exactly my point.  They go through all sorts of adventures and ordeals for almost two years, without growing up even a little bit.

 

[Rhienne]

 

 First: exactly my point.  They go through all sorts of adventures and ordeals for almost two years, without growing up even a little bit.

You don't think Rand comes to realises that he needs strength rather than hardness after VoG?

 

Or that Perrin learns to accept that he is a natural leader and responsible for his people?

 

That Egwene doesn't learn to have confidence in herself and her abilities?

 

That Nynaeve doesn't mature enough to take her brutal AS test as a learning experience for herself and the Tower rather than losing her temper?

[Tarvalantarverann]

All of those things aren't examples of personalities changing, sounds like they adapt in order to survive very basically but I assume they don't change much in the ways we have critizied in this post. ( i haven't read past the fourth book) but four books of mighty battles would be enough to make me do things a little differently without a doubt, also they wouldn't have to change of they weren't such fucking whiny morons

[EmperorAllspice]

If you think Perrin is whiny NOW.

 

... I don't know whether to shudder or laugh hysterically

[Norseman]

 

 

 First: exactly my point.  They go through all sorts of adventures and ordeals for almost two years, without growing up even a little bit.

You don't think Rand comes to realises that he needs strength rather than hardness after VoG?

 

Or that Perrin learns to accept that he is a natural leader and responsible for his people?

 

That Egwene doesn't learn to have confidence in herself and her abilities?

 

That Nynaeve doesn't mature enough to take her brutal AS test as a learning experience for herself and the Tower rather than losing her temper?

 

 

Oi, I'm 300 pages into A Crown of Swords, so still not quite half-way.  Which is around where I let go the second time.  Things may still change, but as far as right now is concerned:

 

VoG?  I'm not familiar with WoT fandom, so all the local vernacular will pass straight over my head.

 

Nah, Perrin has accepted nothing at this point.

 

Egwene has just been elected Amyrlin and there's little or no evidence of enhanced confidence as yet.

 

I've no idea, since whatever you're referring to has not yet taken place.  AS means Aes Sedai I assume?

 

So anyway: I'm quite prepared to believe that things will change at some point, but that is not my point.  My point is that after six and a half books, some four thousand-odd pages and around two years in-book time chock-full of travel, adventure, battle and whatnot - people have not changed.  Which I find to be ludicrous and just plain bad writing.  If things get better from here on then that's cool, but it doesn't change the fact that these six books really have monumental flaws in terms of character design and development.

[Suttree]

Ahh that makes a bit more sense. Wasn't sure where you were in the series. Will be interested hear updates as you get further along.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I advise people to keep it cool when discussing this topic. It is one that can easily get out of hand. Tempers flare easily in such topics, I would suggest being more diplomatic than usual. Also, I would really save such discussions until everyone has read at least up to ToM, if not the whole series itself. Large series consisting of 13 books are much different from trilogies or smaller series. The time frame is a total of around 2 years. The word count doesn't match the time frame, and 6-7 books in is not far, it's only half way. 

 

I'm not saying you can't discuss, obviously you are free to do so. However, I doubt much can be achieved when discussing a series when some have not read large chunks of it. Neither am I saying that these opinions are invalid because someone has not read as far as another. However, it will definitely lead to misunderstanding and misconception, after all, some haven't read half of the series while others have finished. To really understand, the full series must be read before it can be properly judged. 

 

Just things to keep in mind when discussing so things don't go south. 

 

Also, watch the language, this is a PG-13 board after all.  

[Norseman]

I'm perfectly cool, I just have a slightly abrasive writing style.

 

 

Large series consisting of 13 books are much different from trilogies or smaller series. The time frame is a total of around 2 years. The word count doesn't match the time frame, and 6-7 books in is not far, it's only half way. 

 

I beg to differ.  It is only half way, of course, but it is most certainly also far - 5457 pages far in fact, as of right now.  Which is easily way more pages than the vast majority of series, fantasy or otherwise, ever reach.  And this has really been my main point; that 4-5000+ pages can pass with no change or improvement to the main characters.  In order to discuss this with perfect understanding I only need to have read what I have read.

 

Sorry, I'll shut up now and go read some more.  And when I come back I'll try to remember to leave out the nasty words.

[Suttree]

Not sure how you can say someone like Rand hasn't changed at all in terms of personality and character growth. You are missing a good deal if you think that is the case.

[EmperorAllspice]

Though I would say that Rand isn't really a character as much as the other two are. At least from my read through. I can point to personality traits that the other two have but not so much him. Rand is kinda a product of his changing circumstances. He is a character who becomes a character by things happening to him.

[Norseman]

Well said.  To me, Rand is (so far) mainly defined by his struggle with Lews Therin and, like you say, his reactions to other people's actions.  Apart from learning stuff, growing more powerful and having to resist Lews Therin more, there's is really not much to Rand that I can see.  Little or no depth at all and internally he is still the same adolescent boy who left Emond's Field in book one.