What was the point of Nynaeve's AS testing?

[Rhienne]

I've been doing a full series re-read following AMoL and yesterday I came to one of my favourite scenes in ToM - Nynaeve's test for AS.  When I first read this I thought it was awesome: Nynaeve finally goes through a bit of character growth, Egwene apologises to her, the irrational practices of the AS and their aloofness are called down, plus there was some pretty good writing in it. 

 

However, on my second re-read of this scene I'm left with some questions about the logic of the whole thing.  Firstly, Egwene tells Elayne and Egwene that she wants them to come to the Tower so that they can be made proper AS, however she seems to think that there is no need for Nynaeve and Elayne to actually take the test.  I don't think the other Aes Sedai would think either of them was 100% real AS unless they took the test, and allowing them to take the three oaths without doing so also looks like favouritism on Egwene's part, negating the whole purpose of them coming to the Tower anyway. 

 

Secondly, Egwene's involvement (very unusual for the Amyrlin to be involved in the testing) would potentially look like favouritism to her doubters as well.  Those involved in the test all swear not to reveal what has passed in the testing, so the majority of AS in the Tower may believe that Egwene participated to make sure Nynaeve passed, especially the ones that already predisposed against her. 

 

I also think its strange that Egwene doesn't need to take the Test.  The explanation given is that Tower Law states the Amyrlin is AS, but the law also states that Nynaeve and Elayne are already AS because the Amyrlin raised them, so by going back on her decree it kind of weakens Egwene's position, implying that her decree didn't actually mean anything.  It also seems bizarre that Egwene is allowed to participate in the test given she has not gone through it herself, suggesting that either a) she has no idea what the standard is meant to be like, or b) she has had to ask other AS what to do, which would only draw attention to the fact that she hasn't taken it.

 

Then there is the actual test itself, which according to Saerin is absolutely brutal.  I give Egwene somewhat of a pass on this because she hasn't been involved in a test before, but the fact she apologises for her scenes (the two most emotionally painful, and the darkhounds one being the most dangerous that we see) suggests she knows she went to far, so really all of those involved in the test are somewhat responsible, apart from perhaps Saerin, who may not have created such severe scenarios herself, given her reaction.  From Saerin's comments we know women have died from much less strenuous tests.  Do these women seriously not even care that they are risking the life of basically the one AS that Rand trusts?  If Nynaeve had died during the testing (a very real possibility given that Egwene tested her with Darkhounds which can only be destroyed with balefire), this would have had a catastrophic effect on the relations between Rand and Egwene/Rand's followers and the White Tower.  'Sorry, we killed the woman you want to use Callandor with you at SG because we made her test too hard to that a) I was right to raise her (Egwene), or b) to make her fail because we didn't believe she should have been raised (Lelaine, etc.)'.  Not to mention that this seems extremely short sighted on the part of the AS - Nynaeve is the only one of their number that Rand trusts and regularly has around him, and they essentially try to make her fail/kill her.  Never mind the idea that risking powerful AS right before the Last Battle is also pretty stupid.

 

I think the whole scene is only salvaged because Nynaeve thankfully goes through a bit of last minute character growth and treats the episode as a learning experience rather than storming off in a rage, which she would have done in the past.  Given that Nynaeve has spent zero time with the AS involved since tFoH, and has only had occasional meetings with Egwene in TAR, this kind of reaction might be the one they should expect, and would be almost as bad for the WT as her death - Nynaeve storms back to Rand, more against the WT, giving Rand further ammo against them, and losing Egwene's chance to moderate his views through Nynaeve.

 

And I don't think Nynaeve's raising really helps Egwene.  Lelaine and some of the other Sitters still believe she has failed, and Nynaeve makes it pretty clear that she will ignore any orders that she personally disagrees with, which doesn't really go too far to prop up Egwene's authority.  I get that it is kind of a plot point in terms of facing the AS with the flaws of their institution, but from an in-world sense it doesn't really make any sense at all.

 

I believe BS has been quoted as saying that RJ never intended to do another AS testing scene after Moiraine's, so I wonder how much of this mini plot was actually RJs idea at all.

[Barid Bel Medar]

RJ did say he wasn't going to show another AS test in the main series.

 

The Test was entirely Brandon/

 

Personally, I think that the only thing in that chapter that would have been in RJ's notes would be 1) Nynaeve passes the AS test (offscreen) 2) Receives Lan's bond. 

 

The rest I would say was filler by Brandon. 

 

As you have pointed out, there are a whole heap of things that just don't quite add up. 

 

Probably also put in some of the stuff - like Nynaeve's growth etc.. to advance some other plots/smooth out the plot. 

 

Much of Egwene in ToM is incredibly untrustworthy and out of character. I attribute it to inconsistency rather than any actual progress intended by RJ. 

 

Edit: Don't get me wrong, I liked the Testing, it had some good stuff there, but the continuity and logic of it isn't that great. A nice emotional chapter though. 

[Rhienne]

Yes, I think I was particularly disappointed with Egwene in this scene.  She had really grown on me from ACoS-TGS, but in ToM all of her character growth seems to go out of the window and there is no obvious direction for her character at all.  Prior to reading her response, I would have expected Egwene to either continue along the line of considering the AS and WT way to be the right one, and call down Nynaeve for her behaviour, or use Nynaeve's Testing as another opportunity to instigate change in the WT.  As it was, she came off as cruel during the test (a trait which we have seen a lot of evidence she has grown out of since the TAR episode with Nynaeve in tFoH), and then indecisive/uninvolved afterwards - she didn't show any signs of leadership one way or another, and whatever people may complain about Egwene, she has become an excellent leader.  

 

I thought her 'defence' of Nynaeve - that the Sitters should think carefully about whether they refused Nynaeve the shawl because of her political connections and defeat of Moghedian - was a really low point.  It basically implies that Nynaeve should be raised because it would not reflect well on the power and supremacy of AS if an unaffilliated Wilder was able to defeat Forsaken without the Tower's assistance, and the Queen of Malkier was not involved with the WT.  This is everything that's bad about the Tower!  Choosing whether to let women pass the test (ridiculous as it is) based on their political connections rather than their fitness to be AS is completely morally bankrupt, and negates everything Egwene has been trying to change about the WT.

 

I agree that the Testing was an enjoyable scene, I just felt disappointed that it came at the expense of Egwene's character and also made the Aes Sedai look ridiculously short-sighted/petty/ignorant in the process.

[Zanarky]

I think as much as Egwene wants to be fair and unbiased, she still favours Nynaeve and Elayne to an extent. I think that her feelings of how much they had really done pre-last battle were a little stronger than her feelings towards White Tower etiquette. In the end though, Nynaeve had to go through everything that any other Aes Sedai would, (except the Novice phase, mind you). I don't think the difficulty of the test is relevant. Considering Nynaeve was already one of the strongest channelers alive, cured stilling and fought Moghedien, giving her a cakewalk of a test would have seemed almost silly.

 

My thoughts on the whole "Egwene is Aes Sedai" thing...politics. As much as the Aes Sedai are methodical and smart in how they plan and write their rules, I don't think anyone could have anticipated that an Accepted, and one as young as her, could be raised right up to Amyrlin. I think of it as a loophole in the law. If tower law specifically states that the Amyrlin must be an Aes Sedai, and Egwene was lawfully raised as Amyrlin, therefore, she must be Aes Sedai. I would say for the most part that the general AS population agrees with that law, since no one really seems to give her too much of a hard time about it, at least not to her face.

 

As for her raising Elayne and Nynaeve to Aes Sedai...I could be wrong about this, but did that not happen before Egwene realised the importance of the oath rod? I think that was back when she didn't feel like the oath rod should have been used. If she did have those specific feelings at the time, I could see her easily saying how Nynaeve and Elayne are just magically Aes Sedai. Unlike Egwene, they, along with Theodrin and Faolain, had more trouble with other Aes Sedai accepting them.

 

Basically what I'm getting at is that one is a very specific overlooked loophole in tower law, while the other is more of a broken guideline done so by an Amyrlin trying to make sweeping change in a broken time.

 

As for the specifics of the testing for Nynaeve, I actually just thought it was badass. My favourite chapters in the series were of the Accepted and Aes Sedai testings.

[jedman67]

I havent read this in sometime, so my recollection may be rusty.

 

1. The Hall wanted Nynaeve tested, so someone of her strength should not be a loose canon. Egwene wanted Nynaeve to simply use the Oath Rod, and be done with it, and back in the tower. Nynaeve insisted on being tested, so no one could say that she was an Amyrlins favorite.

2. The members of the Testing Committee were probably chosen by the Hall. The Committee most likely represented the viewpoints of their sitters and/or Ajah heads.

3. Not all AS or even sitters were pro-Egwene; they had been hoping for a malleable puppet amyriln, and were kinda miffed that Egwene wouldn't hand full control to the Hall. Now that they had a legit, and even strong amyrlin, who would not be easily bullied about, they started to get a little fractious. 

4. The test itself; some of the Committee members wanted Nynaeve to fail, and to hell with the consequences. Whether they were jealous of Nynaeve or her position with the Amyrlin as a personal friend, or simply for being a Wilder, they wanted her out. In a sense, they were also testing Egwene, to see if she would let personal feelings get in the way of her duty .At Egwenes testing for Accepted, and I think Nynaeves as well, the Amyrlin was present. The Amyrlin was involved in Moiraines raising, but I don't remember if she was at the testing as well, the Amyrlin being invested in the success of her students.

5. The testing itself is very simple: The student remembers only that she must not, cannot channel until she reaches the star; and then she can only channel the necessary weave. The Testing Committee places obstacles and scenarios in her way to test her resolve, determination, and most importantly; her calm. The lesson of the AS has been "what can be endured, must be endured" - for the greater good. 

By losing her calm, by letting her emotions get to her and by channeling when she should not, she put herself into greater danger than had she not lost control of herself.

Moiraine, Verin, even Cadsuane knew this. Eventually, Egwene learned as well.

The Tower stands above all; even nobles who come to train as AS lose their rank; the Queen of Malkier is no different. When she becomes a full-fledged AS, the Tower also recognizes external rank when necessary, however the Tower must come first.

 

What Nynaeve pointed out is that the Tower as an institution cannot be above the needs of the few or the needs of the world - love, empathy and compassion give an AS far greater strength than cold dispassionate serenity.The Tower seems to have forgotten that it stands for the world, that its more than a meddling independent country; but rather a beacon for the world.

[Suttree]

RJ did say he wasn't going to show another AS test in the main series.

 

The Test was entirely Brandon/

 

Personally, I think that the only thing in that chapter that would have been in RJ's notes would be 1) Nynaeve passes the AS test (offscreen) 2) Receives Lan's bond. 

 

The rest I would say was filler by Brandon. 

 

As you have pointed out, there are a whole heap of things that just don't quite add up. 

 

Probably also put in some of the stuff - like Nynaeve's growth etc.. to advance some other plots/smooth out the plot. 

 

Much of Egwene in ToM is incredibly untrustworthy and out of character. I attribute it to inconsistency rather than any actual progress intended by RJ. 

 

Edit: Don't get me wrong, I liked the Testing, it had some good stuff there, but the continuity and logic of it isn't that great. A nice emotional chapter though. 

 

Agree with this. With Rand all  "LB coming, need to break seals!!!!! Uhh actually lets wait a month" absurdity to fix timeline issues it was pretty much filler. Still a nice chapter though.

 

 

What Nynaeve pointed out is that the Tower as an institution cannot be above the needs of the few or the needs of the world - love, empathy and compassion give an AS far greater strength than cold dispassionate serenity.The Tower seems to have forgotten that it stands for the world, that its more than a meddling independent country; but rather a beacon for the world.

 

Still though your average AS  is out in the world working for the greater good. Averting wars, forging treaties, healing/seeking out outbreaks of disease, breaking up rings of DFs, guarding the blight etc. The WT as an institution has failed but just like any group there are AS that are great at their job and ones that are terrible.

[Rhienne]

 

1. The Hall wanted Nynaeve tested, so someone of her strength should not be a loose canon. Egwene wanted Nynaeve to simply use the Oath Rod, and be done with it, and back in the tower. Nynaeve insisted on being tested, so no one could say that she was an Amyrlins favorite.

Egwene wanted Elayne and Nynaeve to take the test so that they could be real AS, tied to the Tower, and that she wouldn't be accused of favouritism, i.e. letting them have all the privileges of AS without taking the test and oaths.  Nynaeve volunteered to take the test when Egwene said the Sitters might insist on it.  Nynaeve herself wasn't that fussed one way or the other, and certainly didn't insist on taking it.  What doesn't make sense to me is that Egwene wanted Nynaeve and Elayne to be raised as proper AS and recognised as such by the other AS, yet she strongly argues that Nynaeve shouldn't have to take the test and should just be allowed to take the oaths, which completely undermines her position and one of the main reasons that she wants Nynaeve and Elayne to come back to the Tower.

 

 

At Egwenes testing for Accepted, and I think Nynaeves as well, the Amyrlin was present. The Amyrlin was involved in Moiraines raising, but I don't remember if she was at the testing as well, the Amyrlin being invested in the success of her students.

 

I believe the Amyrlin is present at all tests, certainly at all AS tests, as she presents those who pass.  What was unusual was that Egwene participated in creating the scenarios that Nynaeve faced, especially as she had zero experience of the testing ter'angreal, and therefore no idea what was appropriate.

 

 

By losing her calm, by letting her emotions get to her and by channeling when she should not, she put herself into greater danger than had she not lost control of herself.

 

I felt that the entire point of the test was that Nynaeve demonstrated that calm for the sake of calm was pointless.  I don't think she endangered herself by getting angry or running during the test.  The only thing the AS felt was dangerous was her use of Balefire, not whether she was calm or not when she wove it.  She had no problem with the 100 weaves, and indeed was able to think on her feet and adapt their use to other things.  She was able to complete the required weaves while also doing other things (defeating Shadowspawn, saving people, etc.).  Her emotions didn't get in the way of either completing the required weaves or helping those she chose to help.

 

 

The Tower stands above all; even nobles who come to train as AS lose their rank; the Queen of Malkier is no different.

 

This should be the case, but Egwene tells the Sitters that they shouldn't refuse Nynaeve the shawl because she is married to the King of Malkier and it would reflect badly on the Tower for an extremely strong channel who has achieved numerous incredible feats (capturing Moghedian, healing Stilling, healing madness, cleansing saidin) to be in a prominent public role with no need of the Tower.  This is certainly giving her special status for her connections if it influenced the Sitters to vote her through, and says very little for the integrity of the AS involved and Egwene.

[jedman67]

 

 

1. The Hall wanted Nynaeve tested, so someone of her strength should not be a loose canon. Egwene wanted Nynaeve to simply use the Oath Rod, and be done with it, and back in the tower. Nynaeve insisted on being tested, so no one could say that she was an Amyrlins favorite.

Egwene wanted Elayne and Nynaeve to take the test so that they could be real AS, tied to the Tower, and that she wouldn't be accused of favouritism, i.e. letting them have all the privileges of AS without taking the test and oaths.  Nynaeve volunteered to take the test when Egwene said the Sitters might insist on it.  Nynaeve herself wasn't that fussed one way or the other, and certainly didn't insist on taking it.  What doesn't make sense to me is that Egwene wanted Nynaeve and Elayne to be raised as proper AS and recognised as such by the other AS, yet she strongly argues that Nynaeve shouldn't have to take the test and should just be allowed to take the oaths, which completely undermines her position and one of the main reasons that she wants Nynaeve and Elayne to come back to the Tower.

 

 

At Egwenes testing for Accepted, and I think Nynaeves as well, the Amyrlin was present. The Amyrlin was involved in Moiraines raising, but I don't remember if she was at the testing as well, the Amyrlin being invested in the success of her students.

 

I believe the Amyrlin is present at all tests, certainly at all AS tests, as she presents those who pass.  What was unusual was that Egwene participated in creating the scenarios that Nynaeve faced, especially as she had zero experience of the testing ter'angreal, and therefore no idea what was appropriate.

 

 

By losing her calm, by letting her emotions get to her and by channeling when she should not, she put herself into greater danger than had she not lost control of herself.

 

I felt that the entire point of the test was that Nynaeve demonstrated that calm for the sake of calm was pointless.  I don't think she endangered herself by getting angry or running during the test.  The only thing the AS felt was dangerous was her use of Balefire, not whether she was calm or not when she wove it.  She had no problem with the 100 weaves, and indeed was able to think on her feet and adapt their use to other things.  She was able to complete the required weaves while also doing other things (defeating Shadowspawn, saving people, etc.).  Her emotions didn't get in the way of either completing the required weaves or helping those she chose to help.

 

 

The Tower stands above all; even nobles who come to train as AS lose their rank; the Queen of Malkier is no different.

 

This should be the case, but Egwene tells the Sitters that they shouldn't refuse Nynaeve the shawl because she is married to the King of Malkier and it would reflect badly on the Tower for an extremely strong channel who has achieved numerous incredible feats (capturing Moghedian, healing Stilling, healing madness, cleansing saidin) to be in a prominent public role with no need of the Tower.  This is certainly giving her special status for her connections if it influenced the Sitters to vote her through, and says very little for the integrity of the AS involved and Egwene.

 

I don't argue with any of this. I think Egwene learned to be manipulative, devious and disingenuous - in short, she became an AS.

 

Even the AS who are out there working the greater good still have ambitions of power, albeit for the most part in a lesser role. I'm sure pretty much every AS raised to the shawl dreams of being a Sitter at some point, even if not for the most altruistic of reasons. That said, the average AS will put the greater good first, but her determination of how to define the greater good is usually personal.

 

I disagree'd strongly with Nynaeve, about calm for calm's sake. The appearance of calm can project confidence and control, and can diffuse many a situation where tempers and hysterics could damage. The very purpose of "calm for calm's sake" is that an AS needs to demonstrate that serenity (even tho many ridicule them for it) and need to control themselves by pure instinct. Cadsuane rarely loses her temper, or pulls her braid or goes into hysterics, even when her POV's show her seething on the inside. The calm she projects accomplishes far more than blowing her top. THAT is the lesson, that 'what can be endured, must be endured, for the greater good' is what appearing to be calm is all about. 

 

Egwenes familiarity with TAR may have been enough to control the test, all she did was toss in some scenarios, the other persons controlled the test.

 

And i'm going to bed now, so if i've contradicted myself more than once, you"ll just have to live with it. 

[Rhienne]

I disagree'd strongly with Nynaeve, about calm for calm's sake. The appearance of calm can project confidence and control, and can diffuse many a situation where tempers and hysterics could damage. The very purpose of "calm for calm's sake" is that an AS needs to demonstrate that serenity (even tho many ridicule them for it) and need to control themselves by pure instinct. Cadsuane rarely loses her temper, or pulls her braid or goes into hysterics, even when her POV's show her seething on the inside. The calm she projects accomplishes far more than blowing her top. THAT is the lesson, that 'what can be endured, must be endured, for the greater good' is what appearing to be calm is all about.

I totally agree with you on some of this.  I think Nynaeve swung the pendulum back too far the other way - she never makes an effort to restrain her emotions, even when it would be appropriate to do so.  However, she had to do so to make a strong point against the status quo, e.g. why have the rule against running in the test?  There is no reason you can't be calm and run at the same time, and its a pretty idiotic AS who doesn't run when a trolloc horde is chasing her!  However, the AS make the opposite error of never showing emotions even when it might help them.  Cadsuane's lack of emotional expression may have been one of the factors which put up a block between her and Rand; if he had seen her human side he might have been more likely to trust her. 

[jedman67]

that was the other point nynaeve made - an AS should not be so removed from the world that people think they don't understand the world anymore. Calm is good, where it becomes a mask, a thing then its not so good.

Her point that AS should marry and have children means that they would be able to empathize more with the people; AS are just human - blessed, perhaps; elevated for their cause and gifts, but human nonetheless. 

[jedman67]

I found a quote proving my point!

 

QUESTION

What are the requirements for being raised from Accepted to Aes Sedai?

ROBERT JORDAN

Ability to channel under extreme stress.

[Rhienne]

 

I found a quote proving my point!

 

QUESTION

What are the requirements for being raised from Accepted to Aes Sedai?

ROBERT JORDAN

Ability to channel under extreme stress.

 

Sorry, don't quite understand which point you are referring too?  Nynaeve had no problem channeling under extreme stress (in the test and otherwise).  She also had no problem maintaining her calm while doing so - I think it was only fairly late in the testing (weave 90 onwards, I believe) that she decided it was pointless to walk everywhere with a serene expression on her face.

[jedman67]

hard to tell from a chat transcript, but i understand it as not buckling under pressure - Nynaeve did buckle, to the point that she was on the verge of channeling-fatigue. She performed all the weaves, true, but the part she (allegedly) failed was not being calm - letting it get to her. 

 

Another chat quote says that Nynaeve had an extremely rare Talent of Compulsion Resistance - she was able to resist Moghedians compulsion somewhat, and the weave that begins the testing is somewhat related to compulsion. Its a Brandon quote, if i find it ill post it.

 

Edit: http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=605#6

 

TEREZ (SLEEPINGHOUR)

Is the weave used in the shawl testing a form of Compulsion?

BRANDON SANDERSON

They’re definitely cousins. Whether they would consider it a form of Compulsion...to them, Compulsion is complete evil, so they will not view it at all like that...

TEREZ

Yeah, I thought that might be part of what Verin used to cobble together her own Compulsion weave.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yeah. They’re definitely cousins.

FOOTNOTE—TEREZ

This question came out of a thread I started on Theoryland, which in turn came out of a response Brandon made to someone on Twitter. I thought that Nynaeve remembering she could channel at all in her Accepted test might be related to her ability to resist Compulsion as she did with Moghedien (which, as we know from Rahvin, is a fairly rare ability possessed by only the most strong-willed, such as Morgase). Egwene's Accepted test is a whole different ballgame because of her Dreaming talent and the interference with the stone ring ter'angreal that Verin had just given her.

TEREZ (SLEEPINGHOUR)

Do you know what the original use for the testing ter'angreal was?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The notes do. I don’t have it off the top of my head.

[Rhienne]

I think the fact that Nynaeve could remember she was in the test puts her at a disadvantage in terms of keeping her calm.  I think she says something like she knew someone wanted her to fail, and then this progresses to full realisation that she is in a test, and recollection of her Accepted test etc.  She is able to think about the test objectively, and question the aspects of it that are pointless/arbitrary.  Others who take the test only remember the 100 weaves, moving between stars, and needing to stay calm.  Because those are the only things they remember they focus on them.  By the end of the test Nynaeve knows the only reason she has been keeping calm up till that point is because she has been told - i.e. she knows there is no good reason for it.

[jedman67]

well, yes, after i posted that, i realized, despite her strength, Nynaeve had the deck stacked against her. Had she retained only the memory of the weaves and the instructions, I still believe she would have been thrown by her empathy; but not to the same extant. Another disadvantage is that she did not have the years of novice and accepted training beneath her belt that would have given her the automatic patience that the average accepted takes to the test.

 

The more I think of it, the more i realize that there were some elements where BS did a fantastic job and really pulled through.

[clutzyninja]

What aggravated me about the test was the simple fact that it was made so difficult.  Whether or not the other sisters were jealous or just plain didn't like Nynaeve should not have mattered.  The test should be even across the board.  A brilliant college student doesn't receive a more difficult Final based on their intelligence, the test is simply easier for them.  Within the story, I would have liked to see the AS called down for essentially cheating in the test creation, and trying to set Nyn up for failure.  Their reason that they thought she should be able to handle it are unacceptable.  Any other Accepted taking the same test would be dead as a doornail, period.

Granted, an easy test wouldn't have made for good reason, but maybe that's why RJ didn't want to describe another test to begin with.  The whole situation was a bit of a mess to me.