Discuss the Shadow (Full Spoilers)

[Luckers]

Everything Shadow related aside from Demandred and Taim (Cyndane should mostly go in the Perrin thread, but whatevs). Including Samma N'sei, Dark One, Moridin, random Forsaken.

 

Also... Moghedien. Ugh.

[MarkDiLillo]

The big problem I have with the Shadow is this:

 

Why didn't they kill Rand?

 

Why turn them?  What do they get out of turning him?

 

How is turning Rand to the dark side a "draw"?

 

It was answered in another thread that the Dark One couldn't ever really win until everyone gave up hope, but that still doesn't make sense.  They could have killed Rand and just as easily accomplished the same thing.

[dark_hound]

Also, did EVERY person who tried to go into the Pit of Doom just smile at Thom and assume he was falling for whatever guise they were employing?

[MarkDiLillo]

Also, did EVERY person who tried to go into the Pit of Doom just smile at Thom and assume he was falling for whatever guise they were employing?

 

lol yes and if they could channel why didnt they just kill him?  or compulse him?

[Hadilmir]

The big problem I have with the Shadow is this:

 

Why didn't they kill Rand?

 

Why turn them?  What do they get out of turning him?

 

How is turning Rand to the dark side a "draw"?

 

It was answered in another thread that the Dark One couldn't ever really win until everyone gave up hope, but that still doesn't make sense.  They could have killed Rand and just as easily accomplished the same thing.

Rand was the Wheel's Champion because that is what he needed to be. The Wheel chose the Dragon Reborn as its Champion so as to give humanity hope, to give humanity a saviour through Prophecy. However if he died, the Wheel would have chosen another, likely Perrin, Egwene, or Fortuona, and elevated them in response to his death. You can imagine how it would steel humanity's resolve if the fate of the world was thrust off a saviour's back and onto theirs. They would rally to the new Champion and the same final showdown would occur. So long as hope existed, a new Champion would rise.

 

Instead of killing him it would be far better to make him weak, make him know despair, so that the Dark One could consume him in the final moment. Better than even that would be to turn him so that the hope of humanity still rests on him, yet he walks into Shayol Ghul intending to give the Pattern to the Dark One. Both of these eliminate the possibility of the Wheel retaliating with a new Champion.

[esvath]

Moghedien is sooooo stupid, channeling before she get out from enemy's camp, and only to conjure a ball of light! If she tries to Travel, and the pn the suldam capture her, I can symphatize. But no, she just walk, with a ball of light floating above!

 

I don't know whether this is a character flaw, or writing quality (either RJ's or BS's) -_-

[Christina Gleason]

 

Also, did EVERY person who tried to go into the Pit of Doom just smile at Thom and assume he was falling for whatever guise they were employing?

 

lol yes and if they could channel why didnt they just kill him?  or compulse him?

My theory is that they couldn't just channel to kill him there, because if they lashed out with the Power RIGHT THERE outside where Rand+Nynaeve+Moiraine+Callandor were channeling the most of the OP ever channeled, they knew that there was a high likelihood that they would get deep fried. 

[MrJade]

The Dark Prophecy. For the love, the Dark Prophecy.

 

What in the name of the Emperor is going on with this thing?

[Viperswhip]

I thought the point was that Rand dead = draw, that's why Moridin wanted him alive. Getting Rand to go dark or choose one of the DO realities is the only way to win.

[MarkDiLillo]

How is that the only way to win?  The Dark One had armies that were literally about to win the whole thing.  Not to mention, when the seals were broken we assume he was going to escape.

[Suttree]

I thought the point was that Rand dead = draw, that's why Moridin wanted him alive. Getting Rand to go dark or choose one of the DO realities is the only way to win.

Rand has gone dark and the result wa a draw per RJ. Regardless it's obvious killing him outright doesn't lead to an "ultimate victory". There are degrees of victory.

[Barid Bel Medar]

The point isn't what is easy and most effective. The point is that it is the massive failing of the Dark One. The death and/or turning of Rand is not important. The Dragon Reborn is not important. As Suttree says, the Dragon has turned and died in previous turnings, and it has ended in a draw. 

 

It was never about destroying and killing. 

 

The reason the DO didn't just have Rand killed or turned was because it didn't WANT to. The DO could have, but that is it's failing. It's goal was always to break the resolve of the Dragon and all the creatures of the Pattern. The DO's goal wasn't to destroy, but to break, to rule, to own. 

 

And there in lies the DO's failing. The DO doesn't understand the nature of people, that it is impossible to eradicate compassion and hope and all the other emotions similar. The DO hasn't learned, that's why he can't win. That's why it hasn't won. It's possible that the DO can NEVER win. It is certainly the case that it can't win until it learns. Whether the DO can learn that lesson remains to be seen. 

[Mr. Micawber]

This is just silly. The Shadow lost the Last Battle when Rand didn't torch the world in balefire. The Big Guy is the antithesis of creation, namely, nothingness. The Shadow had a slight outside chance to win otherwise by annihilating Rand emotionally, but its armies ended up commanded by an unhinged lunatic who refought the battle of Austerlitz as Emperors Alexander and Francis, instead of Napoleon. Generally when you fool the enemy into leaving the Prätzen Heights weak and then smashing, you win. Matt didn't need to be a genius so much as read the Wikipedia entry of the battle. And suffer Eylau or Borodino level casualties. The battle was far worse fought than the Shaido fought the battle of Cairhien. I'm kind of impressed the Shadow's best general turned out to be Couladin

[Treebeard]

I loved the ending of Moghedien. She thinks she has bested all other forsaken and then *click * . Greandals ending was a little obvious and her role though important , not so thrilling  . As for Demandred aka Bao- pure gold. Fain , who must go in this section - what a let down , a huge cake of awesomeness prepared and then suddenly it has no flavour

[Razumikhin]

This is just silly. The Shadow lost the Last Battle when Rand didn't torch the world in balefire. The Big Guy is the antithesis of creation, namely, nothingness. The Shadow had a slight outside chance to win otherwise by annihilating Rand emotionally, but its armies ended up commanded by an unhinged lunatic who refought the battle of Austerlitz as Emperors Alexander and Francis, instead of Napoleon. Generally when you fool the enemy into leaving the Prätzen Heights weak and then smashing, you win. Matt didn't need to be a genius so much as read the Wikipedia entry of the battle. And suffer Eylau or Borodino level casualties. The battle was far worse fought than the Shaido fought the battle of Cairhien. I'm kind of impressed the Shadow's best general turned out to be Couladin

 

I'm not sure this is right, not at least with how the DO is portrayed in the final volume.  The DO sees nothingness as a compromise, the halfway point in between Rand's vision and his own.  The DO's world, made as it would want it, is a world full of vice, and without virtue.   If Rand had destroyed the world with balefire, then this intermediate position is what might have resulted (e.g., if the pattern was undone by it).

 

Now, this is the picture that we clearly get at the end of aMoL.  It is possible that the DO was lying to Rand, and that he really wanted him to accept nothingness because that would be a victory for the DO.  This would be consistent with the idea that the DO was fine with his channelers using balefire, because it wanted the pattern to be undone.  The alternative interpretation of that, consistent with what the DO says in aMoL, is that the DO wanted (a) the pattern to be destroyed so that it might remake it in its image, (b) the pattern to be weakened to allow it greater influence, or perhaps © nothingness was a compromise the DO was willing to settle on from the start.

 

I think this is the real point about the DO wanting to break Rand, and the people of Randland, rather than merely destroy and conquer.  People are able to choose virtue (perhaps because of the Creator, if the ability to choose virtue is the antithesis of the ability to choose vice, which seems to be dependent upon the existence of the DO), and could do so even if under the rule of the DO.  To really win is to eradicate virtue, and absent destroying the Creator, the way to do that is to break the people.  Turning Rand is not then essential.  Killing him or breaking him would both serve to help break everyone, and that is why the DO didn't really care one way or the other (even though keeping Rand alive clearly harmed the the military side of the DO's campaign).

[Mr. Micawber]

This is just silly. The Shadow lost the Last Battle when Rand didn't torch the world in balefire. The Big Guy is the antithesis of creation, namely, nothingness. The Shadow had a slight outside chance to win otherwise by annihilating Rand emotionally, but its armies ended up commanded by an unhinged lunatic who refought the battle of Austerlitz as Emperors Alexander and Francis, instead of Napoleon. Generally when you fool the enemy into leaving the Prätzen Heights weak and then smashing, you win. Matt didn't need to be a genius so much as read the Wikipedia entry of the battle. And suffer Eylau or Borodino level casualties. The battle was far worse fought than the Shaido fought the battle of Cairhien. I'm kind of impressed the Shadow's best general turned out to be Couladin

 

I'm not sure this is right, not at least with how the DO is portrayed in the final volume.  The DO sees nothingness as a compromise, the halfway point in between Rand's vision and his own.  The DO's world, made as it would want it, is a world full of vice, and without virtue.   If Rand had destroyed the world with balefire, then this intermediate position is what might have resulted (e.g., if the pattern was undone by it).

 

Now, this is the picture that we clearly get at the end of aMoL.  It is possible that the DO was lying to Rand, and that he really wanted him to accept nothingness because that would be a victory for the DO.  This would be consistent with the idea that the DO was fine with his channelers using balefire, because it wanted the pattern to be undone.  The alternative interpretation of that, consistent with what the DO says in aMoL, is that the DO wanted (a) the pattern to be destroyed so that it might remake it in its image, (b) the pattern to be weakened to allow it greater influence, or perhaps © nothingness was a compromise the DO was willing to settle on from the start.

 

I think this is the real point about the DO wanting to break Rand, and the people of Randland, rather than merely destroy and conquer.  People are able to choose virtue (perhaps because of the Creator, if the ability to choose virtue is the antithesis of the ability to choose vice, which seems to be dependent upon the existence of the DO), and could do so even if under the rule of the DO.  To really win is to eradicate virtue, and absent destroying the Creator, the way to do that is to break the people.  Turning Rand is not then essential.  Killing him or breaking him would both serve to help break everyone, and that is why the DO didn't really care one way or the other (even though keeping Rand alive clearly harmed the the military side of the DO's campaign).

 

You know what a retcon is, bro? The climax of TGS was Rand struggling with himself over obliterating existence. Both Elan Morin and Verin make it quite clear that the Big Guy isn't at all interested in the kind of perpetual slavery and shit the Forsaken signed up for. The best victory for the Big Guy is destroying existence itself

[Ixade]

If Rand turned and the Dark one won during that spin of the wheel then eventually another dragon would rise and defeat the Dark one. The only true victory for the Dark one is oblivion and nothingness, but by doing so it in effect destroys the Dark one as well. Shadow cannot exist without light. 

 

Rand understood at the end that the Dark one could not destroy itself and take the path to Oblivion because it was not in its nature.

[Razumikhin]

It is possible it is a retcon.  I'm not leaping to that assumption though, since I think it is quite plausible that other characters were simply *wrong* about the DO's motives.  They all tended to anthropomorphize the DO, including the Forsaken.  Most of the Forsaken thought that the DO wanted to rule the world in a manner similar to how they would rule the world if they could.  Moridin thought the DO wanted to annihilate everything, including Moridin himself.  They all saw the DO as providing what they wanted (power, annihilation).  When Rand sees the DO, this turns out not to be the plan.

 

I see three basic options:

 

(1) The other characters we all wrong about what the DO wanted (perhaps misled by their own hopes).

(2) The DO was lying to try and trick Rand into accepting annihilation, when annihilation is what the DO wanted all along.

(3) It was retconned - RJ initially wanted the DO to prefer annihilation, but this was changed in writing the ending.

 

I certainly cannot rule out your hypothesis (3), but I don't think the evidence demands it either.  In the absence of that evidence, I prefer to be charitable, and hold that it is either (1) or (2).  (The evidence which would be relevant is if neither (1) or (2) can be made consistent).

[Mr. Micawber]

I'm really relying on Verin, not Élan Morin. Her point after studying these people was that a. DF join because they're selfish dicks who want power or sadism or whatever and b. the Big Guy wants something else. Considering that Rand's decision not to annihilate existence in TGS is treated as a victory for the Light, I think it's a pretty strong argument.

 

Also, remember back to that fisher king game. Élan Morin noted way back in POD the various ways to win. Rand annihilating everything was probably the "best" way

[Aeo Sedai]

Or perhaps there's a 4th option; the DO never really wanted or had any desires at all. The DO is like the wind, he's just a force or an abstract concept. 

 

To me, the fact that the DO exists outside the pattern, and time only really exists for him when he's touching the pattern suggest he's incapable of planning or remembering (since that would give him his own personal sense of time. I'm not saying he's not intelligent, but the intelligence that the DO possesses is likely alien and on a different level than what it means to us.

[athrian]

I still don't get why the Shadow's forces didn't break the seals as soon as they could get their hands on them, or why locating them wasn't a higher priority throughout the series. It's pretty clear from AMoL that Rand needed to keep the seals, however flimsy they were, intact until he was at Shayol Ghul and ready to do his thing. Are we supposed to believe that if the seals hadn't been broken anytime before this, allowing the DO more direct access, that it wouldn't have been an advantage?

 

I had been theorizing before this book that the DO couldn't get out of his prison without the Dragon's efforts. The seals would have to be broken and the Dragon would have to widen the Bore or something to battle the DO; this happens by Rand breaking the seals and pulling the DO "into the pattern". So, how would stealing the seals and not breaking them help the DO at all?

[Razumikhin]

Here's how I understand each of the instances Mr. Micawber brings up:

 

Verin - she recognizes that most DFs see the DOs motives as giving them power.  However, the DOs vision seems to be a free for all in a world without virtue, where the DFs would have no special status.   Like Moridin, she recognizes the error on the part of most DFs, but still falls short of really comprehending the will of the DO.

 

Rand - not annihilating existence is surely a victory for the Light, and might be a defeat for the DO.  That does not entail that annihilation is the ultimate goal.  For example, if, on a scale of 1 to 10, we rank the DO's preferred option as a 1, and the defeat of the DO as a 10, then annihilation might be like a 3 or 4.  It's a victory for the Light to avoid it, but not the best outcome for the DO.

 

Moridin - recognizes what the other Forsaken do not, namely that the DO winning is not what they expect.  He, perhaps, does not recognize that the DO winning is not what he expects either.

 

Fair examples all, and it might be that I'm wrong about some but not all.  If the DO was lying about annihilation being a compromise, then Moridin would have been right all along.  

 

The one worry I have about my reply is whether the DFs would really dislike the world that the DO envisions.  Normal DFs would probably hate it, but the Forsaken are powerful, and might thrive in it.  It might not be exactly what they envision (e.g., the DO rewarding them with power), but it might be better than the current state of things since the Forsaken could take power for themselves more easily.  I'd like to look at the text of aMoL again on this point, and in particular, the world the DO envisions with Rand meeting Gill again.  If the Forsaken really would like this world, and it is the one the DO really wants, then they actually end up closer to the mind of the DO than Moridin.  This would be an uncomfortable conclusion to reach, textually.

 

Aeo Sedai raises a really good point though, and perhaps all of my answers anthropomorphize the DO in the way the Forsaken mistakenly did.  I'm struggling with this, since I think it fits best with the metaphysics of the DO we are given glimpses of in aMoL, but at the same time, the DO clearly talks as if it has desires.  Perhaps that is how the essence of the DO is filtered through a human mind (Rand's), or perhaps the DO does have a mind with wishes and desires, but it is just that the mistake is thinking those wishes and desires are too similar to those we would have.  It's a really good point though, and I'm not sure what to say about it.

 

(Edited to make the Verin bit a little clearer).

[Ixade]

I think it is a larger situation that while the seals were unbroken the Dark One could have avoided being resealed or another backlash (taint). Only through a buffer of the True Power could this be avoided. While the seals were in place the door was still open which would be an advantage for the Dark one.

[Ixade]

double post

[Aeo Sedai]

Aeo Sedai raises a really good point though, and perhaps all of my answers anthropomorphize the DO in the way the Forsaken mistakenly did.  I'm struggling with this, since I think it fits best with the metaphysics of the DO we are given glimpses of in aMoL, but at the same time, the DO clearly talks as if it has desires.  Perhaps that is how the essence of the DO is filtered through a human mind (Rand's), or perhaps the DO does have a mind with wishes and desires, but it is just that the mistake is thinking those wishes and desires are too similar to those we would have.  It's a really good point though, and I'm not sure what to say about it.

 

I think the most telling point (to me) is when Rand's got the DO by the throat and he can look into his mind, he finds that the only true possibility, the only future that would actually happen, was the one Rand himself created without Shadow. 

 

I think all the visions Rand was shown were based on Rand himself, on his fears or ideas about what might happen.