Moiraine's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[jjp]

Didn't necessarily need "confrontation" but at least "interaction." Cadsuane spent a ton of time and energy trying to get Rand's trust - something only Moiraine achieved as an Aes Sedai outside of Nyneave/Elayne.

 

Not to mention the last we read of Moiraine's thoughts of Cadsuane she wondered if Cads was Black Ajah.

 

Now Moiraine waltzes back in from the dead and starts advising Rand while they spend time alone consulting and Cadsuane.... AVOIDS her?????? Moiraine says/does NOTHING based on her suspicions in NS on the eve of the Last Battle itself?

 

They avoided each other. Gripping storytelling.

[NitroS]

Didn't necessarily need "confrontation" but at least "interaction." Cadsuane spent a ton of time and energy trying to get Rand's trust - something only Moiraine achieved as an Aes Sedai outside of Nyneave/Elayne.

 

Not to mention the last we read of Moiraine's thoughts of Cadsuane she wondered if Cads was Black Ajah.

 

Now Moiraine waltzes back in from the dead and starts advising Rand while they spend time alone consulting and Cadsuane.... AVOIDS her?????? Moiraine says/does NOTHING based on her suspicions in NS on the eve of the Last Battle itself?

 

They avoided each other. Gripping storytelling.

While i wanted a moiraine siuan reunion this one doesnt bother me, she would probably  suspect alot more then cadsuane after the liandrin plot, but we can safely assume an aes sedai so close to super rand would not be black ajah but we have no idea how much moiraine knows, she could have been outside the tent talking to siuan the whole time before her entrance and got filled on the cleansing of the tower etc. They have a few hour confrontation in NS and is probably the only confrontation they ever had.

 

I do agree that Moiraine was a let down in reunion department although i think her entrance scene was well handled, writing it from rands pov would have been difficult and probably a let down so sanderson played to his strength and used perrin.

[Tharand]

Given Rands weakness, I believe it would had been more fitting with Moiraine killing Lanfear than Perring but that is probably because I once again got bored with Perrins indecisiveness (as experienced in many books before). I would also have wished to see more of her but still I don't see why many complains.

 

Her point was never really to actively destroy the DO or something like it - the prophecies/viewings made pretty clear that Rand needed her to laugh and smile again and to let go (although Egwene took that role now). Moiraine also helped him with the pact to achieve unity at a crucial point which was really necessary to stand any chance in the Last Battle.

 

Although she was passive for 3/4 of the book, she was necessary to help Rand wield Callandor. What other candidates did he have? Egwene and Elayne were for obvious reasons needed elsewhere. Could he trust Alanna or Cadsuane with the task? Although we never get a Moiraine POV, the Nyn POV shows that it takes quite a lot of mental strength and will power to maintain focus in a situation like that and although it is not written out, Moiraine is doing it all well.

 

And again, why having Perrin jumping around chasing Slayer when Thom could just so neatly have finished him in stealth while composing another ballade?

 

And although the Thom POV seemed a bit weird given the total chaos nearby and his easy with killing BA, I really liked it nevertheless as it was one of a handful of well written moments in the book where the author blinks to his readers. It is a way of BS to show humility over the momentous task he was given and the difficulties for him to carry it out in a sufficient way. That was a beautiful scene indeed.

[CanUFeelTheLove?]

I like to think that one of Moiraine's requests from the Finns was to make it to the last battle. She didn't have to worry about dying while in their disgusting hands. :)

[Rookie.Rider]

The question I have regarding Moiraine is, when she is reborn again in the future, will she have the same channeling strenght that she had before the Aelfinns took her. 

 

I agree, there was just not enough of her in this book.  There was a potential there to really do something badass, but the book missed out on it.

[The Contemplator]

Why didn't they tell us what Moiraine's 2 gifts from the Finns were? They were basically thrown in our face at the end of ToM and then never mentioned again. If those gifts were mentioned in aMoL I would have forgiven all other problems with her arc. I was totally hung up on the fact that those two gifts would be critical for the LB and then never mentioned again. Just pissed me off. 

 

 

I went through a lot of thinking (contemplating...) on this issue after reading AMOL. It is obvious

that Moiraine had a bigger role planed for her but it was for some reason

omitted. If it were only the poor appearance in the last book then all the

excuses mentioned on this thread might have helped but this specific clue (two

gifts from the Finn) is so strong that no excuse may be used for its omission

in AMOL. Something had happened that somebody (BS) isn't telling us...

 

 

I watched BS talking about "River of Souls" - having a few scenes from AMOL from another character's POV (he

said that there was not enough room in the book so they had to cut off some

stuff. He added it was a well-known character. I would bet Mat's hat that it is

Moirane.

In my humble opinion, her activities in the cave with rand were crucial. I would guess

she was using one or two of the other artifacts she received from the Finn

while there. It might be she was helping rand in some way in his mental battle

against the DO.

 

Anyone wants a bet?

[Suttree]

Anyone wants a bet?

Sure. Especially since we've already been told River of Souls is about Demandred. ;)

 

I would like to know if Moiraine played a special role in the cave however.

[The Contemplator]

 

Anyone wants a bet?

Sure. Especially since we've already been told River of Souls is about Demandred. ;)

 

I would like to know if Moiraine played a special role in the cave however.

Well... I guess you win some you lose some...

Anyway I like my theory better then having her entire plot-line BFed out of the book at its ending.

I realy hope that BS or someone wil clear this out some day.

[Suttree]

Ha. Welcome to DM Contemplator!

[The Contemplator]

Ha. Welcome to DM Contemplator!

THANKS!

[wotfan4472]

For Moiraine, her crowning glory was WORKING WITH NYNEAEVE IN CAPTURING MORIDIN WITH CALANDOR. Can you see Elayne or Aviendha doing this? They would have got Rand killed, just as they have countless times before, especially Elayne. When Moridin manipulated the link with Rand the way he did..... THIS IS WHAT MIN MEANT ABOUT RAND FAILING WITHOUT MOIRAINE.

[Rhienne]

I think BS has confirmed that Rand would have failed without Moiraine because Moiraine was needed to make Rand and Egwene work together.  Much as I wish she had a bigger/more dramatic role, I think this was pretty much it for her.  I can't imagine that anything on Moiraine in the notes would have been left out after she had been missing for such a long time.  I think the FoM scene could have been improved though.  I think it was meant to feel like a wise counsellor who's been to hell and back coming back with new insights and greater perspective (similar to Gandalf th Grey --> Gandalf the White) to bring together two great leaders of the world who need to work together for the greater good.  Instead it felt like a mother scolding two naughty children because of the dialogue between Rand and Egwene which was very immature and seemed to negate large chunks of their character growth.

[Suttree]

F They would have got Rand killed, just as they have countless times before, especially Elayne.

Ermmm what?

When Moridin manipulated the link with Rand the way he did..... THIS IS WHAT MIN MEANT ABOUT RAND FAILING WITHOUT MOIRAINE.

No it isn't. Brandon has said her role was to get Egwene and Rand to work together or all would have been lost.

 

Agreed with Rhienne on the poor execution.

[Terazed]

  Instead it felt like a mother scolding two naughty children because of the dialogue between Rand and Egwene which was very immature and seemed to negate large chunks of their character growth.

Strange to say but the minute they called each other "light-burned, wool-headed, stubborn fool" and "spoiled, self-certain, unmitigated brat" I knew they were going to reach an agreement.  They really did need to bring each other back to Earth before they could get anywhere in that scene.  Looking a few lines up it's kind of sad to see Egwene's line "Rand, You are not the Creator.  If you go to the Last Battle with this foolishness, we're all dead anyway."  She was right there, Rand did go the the Last Battle having asked the wrong question of the Aelfinn which led him to think he could kill the DO.  He was entirely responsible for getting Egwene and most of the people in that camp killed and Egwene saw it coming. It is a shame Moraine couldn't guilt that little bit out of Rand but the wheel weaves as the wheel wills as she would say.

 

Anyway I digress.  There is nothing wrong with the fact Moiraine was one of only 3 people to enter the Pit of Doom and help seal the DO's prison.

[Rhienne]

Egwene's line "Rand, You are not the Creator.  If you go to the Last Battle with this foolishness, we're all dead anyway."

I think Egwene was referring to Rand wanting to break the seals there and then?  I don't think she or anyone else had any strong ideas on whether the DO should be killed or resealed or anything.  They just hoped Rand would be able to come up with some kind of satisfying resolution where he couldn't harm anyone anymore.  Egwene and her faction just didn't want Rand to break the seals and release the DO, which Rand thought was neccessary even if he was just going to repair the prison and reseal the DO.

 

I don't think he was responsible for getting people killed.  Okay, yes he could perhaps have reached his conclusion slightly sooner but I'm not sure anyone else would have done any better.  Egwene made a conscious decision to continue drawing saidar and sacrifice herself to repair the damage to the Pattern.  This sacrifice may have been need to prevent the Pattern unravelling regardless of what Rand did with the DO anyway.

[Terazed]

 

Egwene's line "Rand, You are not the Creator.  If you go to the Last Battle with this foolishness, we're all dead anyway."

I think Egwene was referring to Rand wanting to break the seals there and then?  I don't think she or anyone else had any strong ideas on whether the DO should be killed or resealed or anything.  They just hoped Rand would be able to come up with some kind of satisfying resolution where he couldn't harm anyone anymore.  Egwene and her faction just didn't want Rand to break the seals and release the DO, which Rand thought was neccessary even if he was just going to repair the prison and reseal the DO.

 

I don't think he was responsible for getting people killed.  Okay, yes he could perhaps have reached his conclusion slightly sooner but I'm not sure anyone else would have done any better.  Egwene made a conscious decision to continue drawing saidar and sacrifice herself to repair the damage to the Pattern.  This sacrifice may have been need to prevent the Pattern unravelling regardless of what Rand did with the DO anyway.

You are entirely correct except that Rand did just tell her he was going to kill the DO 3 pages before.  What I am arguing against is the concept of a Zen Rand or a Creator Rand.  Rand and Egwene are who they always have been and I think it was good that they brought it out into the open.  I think that when Rand walked into the Pit of Doom he was just a normal person.  When I say he was responsible I am saying that he thought he knew more of what would happen then he should have.  The last thing he says to Nakomi is "I see the answer now.  I asked the Aelfinn the wrong question."  It may seem a minor point but Rand is the Fisher King and the most uniform point of the grail and spear stories is that the Fisher King's dolorous wound can only be healed by someone who asks the right question.  Once the correct question is asked the healing is simple.  The entire first half of Rand's Last Battle was doomed to fail because Rand asked the wrong question and walked into the Pit of Doom with the wrong answer.  The DO punishes him by making him watch everyone die which causes Rand to despair because he failed to protect them.  After Rand learns what the DO is the DO has no power over him and the tide at the battle at Merrilor turns.  If Moiraine hadn't convinced him to give over the seals (and they had been the real ones) and he broke them at the start then the whole lot of them wouldn't have stood a chance.  Egwene had to put her foot down hard and calling him a stubborn fool was not a bad thing for him to hear.  If he had listened better or have been a Zen/Creator Rand he could have started the Last Battle already at chapter 39 and saved a lot of people from messy deaths.  The other point of the stories of the healer of the Fisher King is that he will be a fool who knows compassion and Rand certainly gets called a fool often enough.

[wotfan4472]

Yay, had someone respond to my post!!

I do agree about Moiraine's role regarding Rand and Egwene, but in the Pit of Doom........ I had a thought last night after leaving.... How would Elayne, Egwene or Aveindha had done when Moridin made Rand drop Callandor?? It just spoke to me that Rand would have failed with anyone else other than Nynaeve and Moiraine being there. My post earlier was a waay off when I got to Elayne; I have just found her to be to reckless in most situations.... and me being tired from work. My apologies Suttree.

[Rhienne]

 

 

Egwene's line "Rand, You are not the Creator.  If you go to the Last Battle with this foolishness, we're all dead anyway."

I think Egwene was referring to Rand wanting to break the seals there and then?  I don't think she or anyone else had any strong ideas on whether the DO should be killed or resealed or anything.  They just hoped Rand would be able to come up with some kind of satisfying resolution where he couldn't harm anyone anymore.  Egwene and her faction just didn't want Rand to break the seals and release the DO, which Rand thought was neccessary even if he was just going to repair the prison and reseal the DO.

 

I don't think he was responsible for getting people killed.  Okay, yes he could perhaps have reached his conclusion slightly sooner but I'm not sure anyone else would have done any better.  Egwene made a conscious decision to continue drawing saidar and sacrifice herself to repair the damage to the Pattern.  This sacrifice may have been need to prevent the Pattern unravelling regardless of what Rand did with the DO anyway.

You are entirely correct except that Rand did just tell her he was going to kill the DO 3 pages before.  What I am arguing against is the concept of a Zen Rand or a Creator Rand.  Rand and Egwene are who they always have been and I think it was good that they brought it out into the open.  I think that when Rand walked into the Pit of Doom he was just a normal person.  When I say he was responsible I am saying that he thought he knew more of what would happen then he should have.  The last thing he says to Nakomi is "I see the answer now.  I asked the Aelfinn the wrong question."  It may seem a minor point but Rand is the Fisher King and the most uniform point of the grail and spear stories is that the Fisher King's dolorous wound can only be healed by someone who asks the right question.  Once the correct question is asked the healing is simple.  The entire first half of Rand's Last Battle was doomed to fail because Rand asked the wrong question and walked into the Pit of Doom with the wrong answer.  The DO punishes him by making him watch everyone die which causes Rand to despair because he failed to protect them.  After Rand learns what the DO is the DO has no power over him and the tide at the battle at Merrilor turns.  If Moiraine hadn't convinced him to give over the seals (and they had been the real ones) and he broke them at the start then the whole lot of them wouldn't have stood a chance.  Egwene had to put her foot down hard and calling him a stubborn fool was not a bad thing for him to hear.  If he had listened better or have been a Zen/Creator Rand he could have started the Last Battle already at chapter 39 and saved a lot of people from messy deaths.  The other point of the stories of the healer of the Fisher King is that he will be a fool who knows compassion and Rand certainly gets called a fool often enough.

I agree with most of this, but I think part of what Rand learned from his battle with the DO was that others had the right to sacrifice themselves in the fight against the Shadow.  I think the timeline is so skewed at SG that most of the people would have died anyway, in fact many of them probably died while Rand was walking from the bottom of the mountain to the back of the pit.

 

Another point which I'm not sure on - did the trollocs and myrdraal remaining after the LB immediately disappear at the DO's defeat?  Because if they didn't, the physical battle would have taken place just the same regardless of what Rand did.

[Terazed]

 

 

 

Egwene's line "Rand, You are not the Creator.  If you go to the Last Battle with this foolishness, we're all dead anyway."

I think Egwene was referring to Rand wanting to break the seals there and then?  I don't think she or anyone else had any strong ideas on whether the DO should be killed or resealed or anything.  They just hoped Rand would be able to come up with some kind of satisfying resolution where he couldn't harm anyone anymore.  Egwene and her faction just didn't want Rand to break the seals and release the DO, which Rand thought was neccessary even if he was just going to repair the prison and reseal the DO.

 

I don't think he was responsible for getting people killed.  Okay, yes he could perhaps have reached his conclusion slightly sooner but I'm not sure anyone else would have done any better.  Egwene made a conscious decision to continue drawing saidar and sacrifice herself to repair the damage to the Pattern.  This sacrifice may have been need to prevent the Pattern unravelling regardless of what Rand did with the DO anyway.

You are entirely correct except that Rand did just tell her he was going to kill the DO 3 pages before.  What I am arguing against is the concept of a Zen Rand or a Creator Rand.  Rand and Egwene are who they always have been and I think it was good that they brought it out into the open.  I think that when Rand walked into the Pit of Doom he was just a normal person.  When I say he was responsible I am saying that he thought he knew more of what would happen then he should have.  The last thing he says to Nakomi is "I see the answer now.  I asked the Aelfinn the wrong question."  It may seem a minor point but Rand is the Fisher King and the most uniform point of the grail and spear stories is that the Fisher King's dolorous wound can only be healed by someone who asks the right question.  Once the correct question is asked the healing is simple.  The entire first half of Rand's Last Battle was doomed to fail because Rand asked the wrong question and walked into the Pit of Doom with the wrong answer.  The DO punishes him by making him watch everyone die which causes Rand to despair because he failed to protect them.  After Rand learns what the DO is the DO has no power over him and the tide at the battle at Merrilor turns.  If Moiraine hadn't convinced him to give over the seals (and they had been the real ones) and he broke them at the start then the whole lot of them wouldn't have stood a chance.  Egwene had to put her foot down hard and calling him a stubborn fool was not a bad thing for him to hear.  If he had listened better or have been a Zen/Creator Rand he could have started the Last Battle already at chapter 39 and saved a lot of people from messy deaths.  The other point of the stories of the healer of the Fisher King is that he will be a fool who knows compassion and Rand certainly gets called a fool often enough.

I agree with most of this, but I think part of what Rand learned from his battle with the DO was that others had the right to sacrifice themselves in the fight against the Shadow.  I think the timeline is so skewed at SG that most of the people would have died anyway, in fact many of them probably died while Rand was walking from the bottom of the mountain to the back of the pit.

 

Another point which I'm not sure on - did the trollocs and myrdraal remaining after the LB immediately disappear at the DO's defeat?  Because if they didn't, the physical battle would have taken place just the same regardless of what Rand did.

Yes, Rand's actual redemption was not what he thought it would be, namely sacrificing himself at SG to kill/imprison the DO.  It really was that he unified the world to fight the same spiritual battle alongside of him at the Last Battle and he could call upon their strength.  The truth was in front of Rand the entire time but he refused to see it.  The last act of Egwene's soul before departing was to make sure he understood this fact.  Could she have made him see this in the tent before the last battle or did she have to discover this for herself in her own Last Battle before she could make him understand?  What is the nature of Egwene's own redemption and is hers interdependent with Rand's?  That I am still debating. 

 

Now onto your question about Trollocs, myrdraal, and the physical last battle.  The time is skewed at SG but I think many of the key points occur while Rand is with the DO.  The key point is that the DO's power is almost entirely in illusion/madness.  His entire effect on the world and people is through illusion/madness (wahn in German).  I think the DO is essentially playing with loaded dice in the individual battles using wahn and is able to set up characters to be killed in order to hurt Rand.  The minute Rand is able to see through wahn the DO has no power over him and he also looses control of the physical Last Battle.  The horn of Valere sounds right as Rand sees through the DO.  He also seems to be understand that wahn itself was the true enemy all along in the end  "He understood, finally, that the DO was not the enemy.  It never had been".

 

That probably sounds strange right now.  I posted a translation of the lyrics to "Wahn, Wahn, uberall Wahn" before which explains the point much better then I ever could.  I stink at linking so you might have to find it if I don't edit it in time.  It shows how while wahn is destructive it is also creative.  Rand is almost paraphrasing when he says things like "Do you want to know the thing that twists my brain in knots, Perrin?  The thing that gives me shivers, like the cold breath of the shadow itself?  The taint is what made me mad and what gave me memories from my past life.  They came as Lews Therin whispering to me.  But that very insanity is the thing giving me the clues I need to win.  Don't you see?  If I win this, it will be the taint itself that led to the Dark One's fall." in chapter one. 

 

Heck I will post the lyrics again since it will be easier for me.

Madness! Madness! Everywhere madness! Wherever I look searchingly in city and world chronicles, to seek out the reason why, till they draw blood, people torment and flay each other in useless, foolish anger! No-one has reward or thanks for it: driven to flight, he thinks he is hunting; hears not his own cry of pain; when he digs into his own flesh he thinks he is giving himself pleasure! Who will give it its name? It is the old madness, without which nothing can happen, nothing whatever! If it halts somewhere in its course it is only to gain new strenght in sleep: suddenly it awakens, then see who can master it! How peacefully with its staunch customs, contented in deed and work, lies, in the middle of Germany, my dear Nuremberg! (He gazes before him, filled with a deep and peaceful joy) But one evening late, to prevent a mishap caused by youthful ardour, a man knows not what to do; a cobbler in his shop plucks at the thread of madness: how soon in alleys and streets

it begins to rage! Man, woman, journeyman, and child fall upon each other as if crazed and blind; and if madness prevails, it must now rain blows, with cuts, blows, and thrashings to quench the fire of anger. God knows how that befell! A goblin must have helped: a glow-worm could not find its mate; it set the trouble in motion. It was the elder-tree: Midsummer Eve! But now has come Midsummer Day!   Now let us see how Hans Sachs manages finely to guide the madness so as to perform a nobler work: for if madness won't leave us in peace even here in Nuremberg, then let it be in the service of such works as are seldom successful in plain activities and never so without a touch of madness .

It makes sense that the two should be connected since they both discuss a buddhist philosophy.

[picturesintheair]

I don't feel like Moiraine's appearance at Merrilor was necessarily written poorly. I feel like it may have felt foreign to many readers because Moiraine IS almost foreign to us when she returns. Not only have we been without any contact with her character for at least 8 books, but I don't think she was quite the same person after the Tower. She suffered torments in the Tower that could have mentally broken anyone easily. She seems to have emerged a much a quieter, softer and more emotionally open woman. Also, I don't think Moiraine was particularly prone to big entrances or dramatic returns to begin with, but then, returning to the scene during THE pivotal meeting of minds of the WORLD must have been something to enter into with care. In addition, with her strength in the Power so diminished, she's returning to her Sisters in with a much lower status than she had previously.

 

It would be super interesting to get this scene from her POV. 

[picturesintheair]

@Edynol: I think it can get very hard to distinguish between things like "poor writing" and "plot". The plot simply falls apart if a scene is so poorly written that I cannot stay immersed in the fiction. In a way, you can count yourself very lucky that this book gave you no trouble, that you could simply accept the plot as it was presented to you. Yes, "the way it was written, Moiraine was most definitely the reason everything didn't fall apart" - but the way it was written contradicted so strongly with the way the previous 10-12 volumes were written (including TGS and ToM) that I cannot combine them into a single narrative in my head. Do you get what I mean? You say it's very simple, "That's how it happened" - but a narrative has to make sense, it has to be plausible within the fictional world, for that to work. 

 

In general, fictional events only "happen" in your head. If a fight is well-written, even if it's relatively minor (like the fight in Ebou Dar where Nalesean got killed), it can have a huge impact on you, it "feels real". If it is not as well-written, events that would be traumatic if you experienced them in real life can have less of an impact (the whole story of Faile's captivity was like that for me). And if an event is really poorly written, like Moiraine at Merrilor, than a lot of people have trouble accepting the fiction as "real", and DM fills up with unhappy readers. Of course, people disagree a lot on what works and what doesn't, like you and me right now. But I think it's helpful to think these issues through carefully, together with all the other people who have also read the book and are either disappointed, or not, as the case may be.

 

EDIT: Wow, that got a bit complicated, sorry. Do you get what I mean though?

 

I don't feel like Moiraine's appearance at Merrilor was necessarily written poorly. I feel like it may have felt foreign to many readers because Moiraine IS almost foreign to us when she returns. Not only have we been without any contact with her character for at least 8 books, but I don't think she was quite the same person after the Tower. She suffered torments in the Tower that could have mentally broken anyone easily. She seems to have emerged a much a quieter, softer and more emotionally open woman. Also, I don't think Moiraine was particularly prone to big entrances or dramatic returns to begin with, but then, returning to the scene during THE pivotal meeting of minds of the WORLD must have been something to enter into with care. In addition, with her strength in the Power so diminished, she's returning to her Sisters in with a much lower status than she had previously.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

All in all, Moiraine should have appeared in the book a lot more than she did. I'm not too critical of her appearances though because I feel like this is something that only RJ could have written properly. Brandon had no chance at a Moiraine reunion scene so he likely ignored it because of that. The biggest problem I have is that Moiraine was flat out just clipped from the book. She was supposed to be absolutely essential to winning the Last Battle - to the point where Min said Rand would almost certainly fail without her. Yet we saw her do nothing useful that someone else could not have done. Furthermore, we have no idea what her other two wishes were or what happened to her and Lanfear during their time in the ToG. I know we know a little bit about what happened, but the whole thing with her wishes was definitely setup as something that would be important to the end and it was just entirely clipped out of the book.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

Remember Moiraine told Rand not to trust anyone except her, Egwene, Elayne, or Nynaeve if they called themselves Aes Sedai. Which meant she and Nynaeve were the only 2 choices for linking. I think she played her part, and her purpose at the last moment was just to show how far the characters had all come, with exception of Egwene, whom she'd predicted almost from day one might be Amrylin one day.