Battles (Full Spoilers)

[Mr. Micawber]

Ok, look. The Light has some powerful channelers, 'angreal, and circles

One bro in TSR glassed an entire city. I'm pretty sure the combined force of female channelers plus the Rand loyalist Ashaman could torch Caemlyn and all the guys in it in a few hours. Then you redeploy to the Northern fronts.

 

yep. but it's Camelyn! Who cares if every city in the North is burned to ashes....not the pretty one! we like that one!

*rolls eyes*

100% exactly what they should have done.

 

Is this where the church lady screams "OH WONT SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN".

Lol. We're fighting for existence itself. Guess what? Eff morals. There's no "sadness" anymore at this point. Embrace death indeed

 

And they spent three or four chapters telling us there are no folks left in Caemlyn!

[Mr. Micawber]

If you know the city is just a giant Trolloc encampment, *you kill it with fire*

[ddidiodion]

Could they have destroyed Caemlyn without drawing out all the trollocs and leaving the people doing it exposed to their attack, never mind leaving them open to a counter attack by the Dreadlords?  I've not seen much that suggests levelling Caemlyn would be quick or easy or would take any shorter time than the Light's original plan. If Rand still had the CK it would have been a formality of course but without that levelling a walled city that wouldn't be small by todays standard, just think about how much fire power that would require, would take a lot of time and effort never mind doing it without leaving yourself open to attack. Drawing them out and destroying them is the logical thing to do if you think they can be drawn out and beaten on the field. 

 

The fact the issue wasn't properly discussed and dismissed was a mistake because at least someone would have suggested it, but that doesn't mean it's a great plan. 

[Mr. Micawber]

Jaric Mondoran turned the second greatest city of the Age of Legends into a lake of glass by himself.

[Mr. Micawber]

So, uh, pretty sure they could have annihilated Caemlyn, bro

[ddidiodion]

So, uh, pretty sure they could have annihilated Caemlyn, bro

You might well be. 

 

 

Jaric Mondoran turned the second greatest city of the Age of Legends into a lake of glass by himself.

 

I don't think I'm going to put much stock in that particular argument in all honesty since we have no idea of the circumstance or details as it all happens off screen in Rand's past life 'memories'. I suspect it might well have been inflated at some point in the 3000 years since it happened. 

[Vardar]

 

 

 

So, uh, pretty sure they could have annihilated Caemlyn, bro

You might well be.

 

Jaric Mondoran turned the second greatest city of the Age of Legends into a lake of glass by himself.

I don't think I'm going to put much stock in that particular argument in all honesty since we have no idea of the circumstance or details as it all happens off screen in Rand's past life 'memories'. I suspect it might well have been inflated at some point in the 3000 years since it happened.

No it's a fact. The Aiel of old were part of it. Rand experiences that memory fresh. Plus we hear "enough power to level a city" over a dozen times in this story. A full circle of 72 with angreal from the WT stash could have done it in seconds. Barely breaking a swear.

[Monkeyfister]

I'm also extremely pleased that Siuan had NO IDEA her Warder was being Compelled by the Shadow.

 

It was the moment that I realized that exact point when I found myself finally unable to excuse Sanderson's horrible writing in this book.

 

After that, finishing it was just a grudgefrack.

 

Death by a thousand papercuts... last straw.

[Grr Aaargh]

Yes, why didn't Siuan notice - and how/why were Bryne's dreams not warded? Moiraine made a point of saying that the dreams of Aes Sedai and Warders are always protected back in TDR, when Perrin asked her for help. Or was that an "early-bookism"?

[Mr. Micawber]

It was an example of terrible writing or rather editing

[ddidiodion]

 

 

 

 

So, uh, pretty sure they could have annihilated Caemlyn, bro

You might well be.

 

 

Jaric Mondoran turned the second greatest city of the Age of Legends into a lake of glass by himself.

ockquote> I don't think I'm going to put much stock in that particular argument in all honesty since we have no idea of the circumstance or details as it all happens off screen in Rand's past life 'memories'. I suspect it might well have been inflated at some point in the 3000 years since it happened.

No it's a fact. The Aiel of old were part of it. Rand experiences that memory fresh. Plus we hear "enough power to level a city" over a dozen times in this story. A full circle of 72 with angreal from the WT stash could have done it in seconds. Barely breaking a swear.

No, it happened off screen and he was told about it by Solinda. You have no idea if he had a sa'angreal or if there were other factors at play. 

[papertiger]

I remember someone yelling about a full circle of 72, but I think they were confused by Demandred's sa'angreal

[mbuehner]

We dont have to go back that far, collection of dreadlords blew a hole in Maridon's walls from a pretty good distance. You open a horizontal gate over the city, look down, and level the city block the waygate is on. Then you do whatever the tower did in the old days to destroy way gates. Then you proceed to firebomb Caemlyn like Dresden. We're home in time for Cosby.

[mbuehner]

I remember someone yelling about a full circle of 72, but I think they were confused by Demandred's sa'angreal

 I suspect it was both and it was Demandred opening the worlds biggest waygate, which is the kinda superfocused thing you want to do with a huge circle.

[ddidiodion]

Going off topic but: Was it ever stated if Demandred had a talent with waygates? I know he was one of the few that could keep a closing one open but I doubt that's directly comparable.

[papertiger]

Yes! That's what it was. I knew it was there somewhere (read this thing in 3 marathon sessions and man, it was a blur).

[Wamphryi]

Battle scenes have never been the WOT's strongest feature. This has really shown up in the MOL as the MOL is essentially one giant battle scene on a scale I have never read personally. 

 

I always thought of the Trolloc's as being over hyped from the outset. They are promoted as creatures of such size and ferocity but more often than not killed off at a much greater rate than the human forces opposing them. Another aspect to Trolloc's I struggled with was that fact that they were made from people and so to have millions of Trolloc's there must be an equivalent loss to a population in the making. There was no mention of female Trolloc's or Trolloc young. I think it would have made more sense to have a lot less Trolloc's that killed four or five men to every Trolloc. 

 

The WOT is a fantastic story but I would never read it for the battle scenes. Bernard Cornwell and Conn Iggulden and Simon Scarrow have written battles that make a person feel like they are there. Yet the WOT is about so much more and RJ and BS have done so very well with the other components of the story. 

[papertiger]

Wamphryi,

 

WOT has always been character based, but that's what lends the battle scenes such impact. Even the messy ones, like the battle with the Seanchan outside Illian.

 

It's why I like the series so much (world-building, character, coherent battle sequences rendered breathless by multiple POVs).

 

It's also why I had trouble with the Last Battle; felt like an arcade game to me at times. I had no idea how forces were deployed, and there were always thousands of Trollocs just roaring about. I needed more of the Two Rivers battle tone for sure.

[bushiki]

Felt slightly annoyed that Nynaeve and Moiraine were tied up with Rand for the entire battle. Was hopjng to see Nynaeve do something amazing. I certainly thought that she would kill Moghedian seeing as they were effectively set up as rivals. Having her taken away in the same way as Elaida and Galina (I.e. into subservience) definitely didn't seem right.

[Vardar]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So, uh, pretty sure they could have annihilated Caemlyn, bro

 

You might well be.

 

Jaric Mondoran turned the second greatest city of the Age of Legends into a lake of glass by himself.

ockquote> I don't think I'm going to put much stock in that particular argument in all honesty since we have no idea of the circumstance or details as it all happens off screen in Rand's past life 'memories'. I suspect it might well have been inflated at some point in the 3000 years since it happened.

No it's a fact. The Aiel of old were part of it. Rand experiences that memory fresh. Plus we hear "enough power to level a city" over a dozen times in this story. A full circle of 72 with angreal from the WT stash could have done it in seconds. Barely breaking a swear.

No, it happened off screen and he was told about it by Solinda. You have no idea if he had a sa'angreal or if there were other factors at play. 

Yes it happened off screen, but it wasn't 3000 years exaggerated. It had just occurred when rand was told.

 

He did have a Sanangreal. It was state (I believe). Still. 1 man, a larger city they had a potential for a full circle plus Sanangreal.

[Vardar]

Battle scenes have never been the WOT's strongest feature. This has really shown up in the MOL as the MOL is essentially one giant battle scene on a scale I have never read personally. 

 

I always thought of the Trolloc's as being over hyped from the outset. They are promoted as creatures of such size and ferocity but more often than not killed off at a much greater rate than the human forces opposing them. Another aspect to Trolloc's I struggled with was that fact that they were made from people and so to have millions of Trolloc's there must be an equivalent loss to a population in the making. There was no mention of female Trolloc's or Trolloc young. I think it would have made more sense to have a lot less Trolloc's that killed four or five men to every Trolloc. 

 

The WOT is a fantastic story but I would never read it for the battle scenes. Bernard Cornwell and Conn Iggulden and Simon Scarrow have written battles that make a person feel like they are there. Yet the WOT is about so much more and RJ and BS have done so very well with the other components of the story. 

.

 

They were originally people, well part people. Due to the creation process they aren't anymore and are outside the soul pool. Female trollocs are mentioned briefly as breeding factories.

[ddidiodion]

Where did it say he had a Sa'angeal? 

 

And that still doesn't rule or exaggeration or Chinese whispers, how do we know the "one big flame" wasn't him hitting some extensive chemical plant or a ter'angreal which exploded and demolished the city? Too much grey area, it might be enough evidence for you but it certainly isn't for me.  

[Vardar]

Along with Maradon, and the fact that no less than 5 channelers admit they could level a city with certain items and circles proves it can be done. Why assume it was a plant it something when no evidence points to it?

 

Hell, the queen AS that leveled Manathren did it solo too. She had a Sanangreal too. But she did it. Is that not evidence either?

[Cybertrolloc]

To be fair, the city nuking or moutain chain raising solo works probably were because of massive over-drawing and resulted in death.

 

There's another side to that, if the light-side channelers start fighting intelligently (you know, open a gateway under a trolloc force and drop it on another enemy force or the like), how bad does it get for the light? The light has to pay attention to keeping non-channelers alive (because they're not evil and all), so why doesn't Taim + 71 others sit in a recliner anywhere on the planet, open a gateway, toss nuke, close gateway, repeat until dinner?

[Morden]

Along with Maradon, and the fact that no less than 5 channelers admit they could level a city with certain items and circles proves it can be done. Why assume it was a plant it something when no evidence points to it?

 

Hell, the queen AS that leveled Manathren did it solo too. She had a Sanangreal too. But she did it. Is that not evidence either?

Doubtful that it will class as evidence to those who feel that the Lights forces didnt have their knee's cut off before the action started.

 

Myself I would have been happier if they had powered up Shara even more and given a bit of back story to it. I.e 2 years training every man/woman and slave to fight in preparation and then drop 4-5million of the best in gateways 5-10 miles from the lights armies and have them totally swarm the light to counter how seriously overpowered the Light would have been.

 

That would have actually been believable and plausible, because we know for a fact that Shara was secretive and that they dealt in slaves, that they specifically bred channellers. Yet managed to field only 400 Ayyad...

 

Sorry but Shara is meant to be larger than Randland, and if they only have 400 yet specifically breed those bloodlines then they would be on similar % as the AoL for channellers which is 2-3x higher than Randland. Add in the larger size, even if the population density was lower they should still have had substantially higher numbers. If Shara's total population was 10million (Which is Andors supposed population) with 3% channellers (Randland apparently has 1% I believe) they should have had 300,000 Ayyad....  

 

That quite frankly isnt possible in the WoT universe it would just be too overpowered so drop it to say 0.03% of a 10million population and thats 3,000 which would have been enough when you had 4-5 million soldiers/slaves added with the trollocs it would have been a true last battle where the Light would really struggle to win.

 

Not having 400 Ayyad pop up, yet have the light afraid to use its Seanchan advantage which was the better part of 2x the Sharan channellers.. all of whom were trained as weapons...

 

Im still half expecting that we'll get some sort of "This was a portal stone variant of what was meant to happen, and the forces/abilities/people you were expecting had already died in the lead up to TG."