Egwene's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[esvath]

Well, the Greens' poor performance was already established during the Seanchan's raid to the Tower. Even Adelorna herself came into this conclusion after the raid. I guess hundred years of relative peace do this to any army...

 

(except, I think Greens should have regular rotations in fighting with Trollocs at Borderlands. Maybe they were sucks at fighting Dreadlords, because all these times, they only fight Darkspawn grunts?)

[Entreri]

Not entirely true friend. Rand in fact attempted to blow up a battlefront, and help out Rand, but they had channelers going straight for him whenever they saw him. Also, with demandred in a full circle, it's doubtful Rand would attack - thats why only the non-channelers had any luck with kicking his butt. Logain had a serious issue. 

With no Shai'tan, the DR would have gone all out, use Callandor, game over.  The Power, skill and abilities of the DR is unmatched, expect in TAR.  The Forsaken are hardly a match for a farmboy, let alone LTT, forget about Rand Sedai. 

 

Callandor, it has no buffer, at one point the amount of saidin wielded was greater than at the Cleansing (according to Logain's PoV).  He would smash Demandred and his little sa'angreal, full cirlce and his armies, main threat over.  Moridin of course will send reinforcements and come himself and get his ass whooped, again. Lanfear will get angry, throw a fit, make a futile attempt and die. Grandael and Moghdien will smartly flee in terror. Taim? Androl will finish him off, that sneaky little Gateway guy!

 

After which, the DR would be dead tired from all the ass whooping and the Light forces would have to clean up the peasant leftovers, uh, Shadow followers. 

 

With the final book done, there will be time for more ($$$). Rand Sedai will need to find and kill Grandael and Moghdien, those two sneaky little women (this could be whole other series!).  Mat and Tuon, Seanchan.  Lan and Nyaneve, rebuilding Malkier....etc

[XXX]

They are a failed institution that wasn't properly preprared. I mean we know there are individual sisters up patrolling the blight. We know they have apparently been studying old strategies and practice dueling in training. Problem being we get to see very little of this in the actual series.

 

What type of preparation is not even having a proper dress for battle?

 

Battle: 101

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

 

They are a failed institution that wasn't properly preprared. I mean we know there are individual sisters up patrolling the blight. We know they have apparently been studying old strategies and practice dueling in training. Problem being we get to see very little of this in the actual series.

 

What type of preparation is not even having a proper dress for battle?

 

Battle: 101

Kind of moot when you don't really have to move a lot compared to a swordsman and you can fling fireballs from a large distance.

[avernite]

 

 

They are a failed institution that wasn't properly preprared. I mean we know there are individual sisters up patrolling the blight. We know they have apparently been studying old strategies and practice dueling in training. Problem being we get to see very little of this in the actual series.

 

What type of preparation is not even having a proper dress for battle?

 

Battle: 101

Kind of moot when you don't really have to move a lot compared to a swordsman and you can fling fireballs from a large distance.

 

Well... the series has hammered the point home that even an Aes Sedai is not immune to arrows. Being able to jump out of the way of something flying your way seems somewhat useful in a chaotic battle situation... let alone the ability to swiftly retreat if need be. Or even running to a fallen soldier to heal him/her.

[XXX]

 

 

They are a failed institution that wasn't properly preprared. I mean we know there are individual sisters up patrolling the blight. We know they have apparently been studying old strategies and practice dueling in training. Problem being we get to see very little of this in the actual series.

 

What type of preparation is not even having a proper dress for battle?

 

Battle: 101

Kind of moot when you don't really have to move a lot compared to a swordsman and you can fling fireballs from a large distance.

 

Sure but it hinders when there are another channlers blasting you back with the OP from a distance and you need to run and duck. And that is exactly what happened in the Last Battle.

 

This plays into what I said that the AS never prepared to fight other channelers.

[wRAR]

 

Not entirely true friend. Rand in fact attempted to blow up a battlefront, and help out Rand, but they had channelers going straight for him whenever they saw him. Also, with demandred in a full circle, it's doubtful Rand would attack - thats why only the non-channelers had any luck with kicking his butt. Logain had a serious issue. 

With no Shai'tan, the DR would have gone all out, use Callandor, game over.  The Power, skill and abilities of the DR is unmatched, expect in TAR.  The Forsaken are hardly a match for a farmboy, let alone LTT, forget about Rand Sedai. 

 

Callandor, it has no buffer, at one point the amount of saidin wielded was greater than at the Cleansing (according to Logain's PoV).  He would smash Demandred and his little sa'angreal, full cirlce and his armies, main threat over. 

Doesn't having no buffer imply you can do this only once?

[Mitsobar]

This is an interesting topic, how the Tower potentially failed in every way to actively perform the function of its creation, rather it just stumbled through.

 

 

In a way you could argue it was flawed from the begining by creating the Ajah's which relegated the overriding mandate to a single Ajah, and even then put no significant onus on that Ajah and by extention all the rest to aggressively prepare at all times for Tarmon Gaiden.

 

I think the problem was over the millenia the WT fell in with the general mindset of the world that the Dragon, his return, and the last batle were taboo, even evil subjects not to be openly discussed, investigated or kept in the public conscioussness.

This catastrophic narrowing of opinion led to probably the biggest failing the WT ever made - Rand's birth.

 

The WT was directly informed the moment the Dragon was reborn. Just read that again and let it sink in.

 

They knew the moment it happened, Tarmon Gaiden had begun, that day, right there.

 

 

So, did the WT rise up to the task at hand, set in motion the gears of industry and war to use the following 2 decades to prepare for the end of the world?. No.

 

They did practically nothing. Siuan and Moiraine, 2 women doing little more than trying to find him and research the last battle itself. The idea of marshalling the WT terrified them, they knew such a revelation would be met with fear, denial, rejection, disagreement, chaos.

 

By the time of the last century of the age the WT was an institution utterly alienated from its founding purpose.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Mitsobar

[Suttree]

This plays into what I said that the AS never prepared to fight other channelers.

Except for the fact that AMoL states flat out that they do.

 

They did practically nothing. Siuan and Moiraine, 2 women doing little more than trying to find him and research the last battle itself. The idea of marshalling the WT terrified them, they knew such a revelation would be met with fear, denial, rejection, disagreement, chaos.

.

While the WT culture certainly didn't help this totally ignores what really lead to the search being forced underground. The BA found out about the foretelling and went on a killing spree. They killed Amyrlins and slaughtered every sister that was sent out to look for the DR. At that point not knowing who to trust Moir and Siuan had to take things into their own hands. While the WT has failed as an institution from a cultural perspective without them being the bulwark against the shadow for the last 3,000 years and saving the world a couple times over as in the Trolloc Wars, we never even would have made it to TG. As Moiraine said:

 

"Do you expect me to be happy that the White Tower has split apart? I am Aes Sedai, Egwene. I gave my life to the Tower long before I ever suspected the Dragon would be Reborn in my lifetime. The Tower has been a bulwark against the Shadow for three thousand years. It has guided rulers to wise decisions, stopped wars before they began, halted wars that did begin. That humankind even remembers that the Dark One waits to escape, that the Last Battle will come, is because of the Tower. The Tower, whole and united. I could almost wish that every sister had sworn to Elaida, whatever happened to Siuan."

Edited February 6, 2013 by Suttree

[XXX]

I meant prepared to fight channelers in battle not the ocassional man they need to gentle. If they do how did they show up to battle in skirts they can't move fast in?

 

Do they work out physically, do any of them know how to fight with their hands,do any of them know how to use any weapons other weilding the OP? How do they ride horses,sideways I assume wearing a skirt.How can you fight like that or even ride fast?

 

They show none of the characteristics of a organization tuned to fight battles on a mega scale.

Edited February 6, 2013 by XXX47

[Mysoulisbrown]

Mitsobar I agree about the creation of Ajahs being a bad thing in the long run. In theory yes it is good to have Aes Sedai specialists in different areas, so that united they make the Tower a more powerful force. But they just became little cliques that constantly bitched about each other. Secret Ajah weaves? Secret head of Ajah? The White Tower degenerated into a cheesy public school with silly

"traditions".

 

I meant prepared to fight channelers in battle not the ocassional man they need to gentle. If they do how did they show up to battle in skirts they can't move fast in?

 

Do they work out physically, do any of them know how to fight with their hands,do any of them know how to use any weapons other weilding the OP? How do they ride horses,sideways I assume wearing a skirt.How can you fight like that or even ride fast?

 

They show none of the characteristics of a organization tuned to fight battles on a mega scale.

So true XXX47 - you don't fight wars in ball gowns! I'm betting they were still wearing slippers too instead of " stout Two Rivers shoes"! Mind you never know, they could all have been wearing skirts"divided for riding"!

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

I meant prepared to fight channelers in battle not the ocassional man they need to gentle. If they do how did they show up to battle in skirts they can't move fast in?

 

Do they work out physically, do any of them know how to fight with their hands,do any of them know how to use any weapons other weilding the OP? How do they ride horses,sideways I assume wearing a skirt.How can you fight like that or even ride fast?

 

They show none of the characteristics of a organization tuned to fight battles on a mega scale.

They can move fast by picking up their skirts and running.  Moiraine did it in New Spring.  And you can ride normally with a skirt - you don't have to ride side-saddle.  And if you have the OP, you don't really need weapons, do you?  Even if Mat's medallion prevented weaves being thrown directly at him, you could still throw other things with the OP, or blast the ground beneath that person's feet....

 

I don't see the need to quibble about skirts as showing that an organization is completely unprepared for the LB because it really isn't important.  The AS kicked butt in Kandor until the Sharans arrived and even then at the FoM they held out quite well considering they were completely outnumbered, and with Egwene's help even managed to drive them back until the balefire fiasco.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Not that I agree with everything that has been said - there is a fair point there. 

 

It is the mentality that Taim's men possessed, and that mentality which was given as an example to their downfall. Rand insisted on the Asha'man learning the sword, because he realised that channeling is not supreme. It's pretty much spelled out in ToM and aMoL. Coteren was disdainful of physical conflict, and Jonneth shot him with a bow long before he could channel. 

 

While I do think the Aes Sedai acquitted themselves well, and it doesn't make them as incompetent as some others would like to make them out to be- it is nonetheless a flaw in their mentality, and a flaw in battle strategy. Just because it shouldn't be a problem, it doesn't mean that they should ignore it and defy logic just because it isn't likely. In battle, EVERY advantage should be seized. Wearing skirts is a disadvantage which was unneeded. But again, as I said, it was a relatively small thing. Still, you can't dismiss the point. 

 

Also, just a few other small things. The Tower battlefront in Kandor only went well because that's how Demandred planned it. It was an intentional trap. Not to say it takes away all their effort, but it mitigates it. They were awesome until the Shadow got serious. 

 

I agree that the FoM shouldn't be held against them though. They were outnumbered and outgunned. The Sharan's were much better at battle and Demandred alone in his circle and sa'angreal was a huge inconvinence, they couldn't be expected to do much against it. In fact, as was said, they did better than expected given the circumstances  (Although that really was 90% Egwene rather than the Aes Sedai.) In any case, point is, they didn't shame themselves. 

 

Now I don't want it to be taken as Aes Sedai being incompetent. They were severely impaired - that can't be denied. They are a fallen institution and only recently re-unified. However, they weren't totally incompetent. They managed to do themselves justice. They could have been more if the Tower didn't tread the path it did for 3000 years, but as well wish Saidin wasn't tainted. They did well with what their predecessors made of them, and that's all you could ask of them. 

[fionwe1987]

Not that I agree with everything that has been said - there is a fair point there. 

 

It is the mentality that Taim's men possessed, and that mentality which was given as an example to their downfall. Rand insisted on the Asha'man learning the sword, because he realised that channeling is not supreme. It's pretty much spelled out in ToM and aMoL. Coteren was disdainful of physical conflict, and Jonneth shot him with a bow long before he could channel. 

 

While I do think the Aes Sedai acquitted themselves well, and it doesn't make them as incompetent as some others would like to make them out to be- it is nonetheless a flaw in their mentality, and a flaw in battle strategy. Just because it shouldn't be a problem, it doesn't mean that they should ignore it and defy logic just because it isn't likely. In battle, EVERY advantage should be seized. Wearing skirts is a disadvantage which was unneeded. But again, as I said, it was a relatively small thing. Still, you can't dismiss the point. 

 

Also, just a few other small things. The Tower battlefront in Kandor only went well because that's how Demandred planned it. It was an intentional trap. Not to say it takes away all their effort, but it mitigates it. They were awesome until the Shadow got serious. 

 

I agree that the FoM shouldn't be held against them though. They were outnumbered and outgunned. The Sharan's were much better at battle and Demandred alone in his circle and sa'angreal was a huge inconvinence, they couldn't be expected to do much against it. In fact, as was said, they did better than expected given the circumstances  (Although that really was 90% Egwene rather than the Aes Sedai.) In any case, point is, they didn't shame themselves. 

 

Now I don't want it to be taken as Aes Sedai being incompetent. They were severely impaired - that can't be denied. They are a fallen institution and only recently re-unified. However, they weren't totally incompetent. They managed to do themselves justice. They could have been more if the Tower didn't tread the path it did for 3000 years, but as well wish Saidin wasn't tainted. They did well with what their predecessors made of them, and that's all you could ask of them. 

Hmmm... I remember reading something about Aes Sedai not ignoring the physical aspects of battle. I could have sworn it was in there somewhere. They have these immensely skilled bodyguards? Warders, I think they're called? :P

 

Who was the most effective channeler we saw in the LB? Graendal. Did she dance about with a sword? No. How did she deal with physical attacks? She had compelled slaves jump in front of her.

 

The Aes Sedai did something different. They bonded men who were trained to be the best warriors in the world. And while the Warders were severely shortchanged in the book, look at earlier books to get an idea of how well Warders work. Look at Perrin's description of how the Aes Sedai enter the fray in LoC. They simply walk, with gowns and everything, and the Warders clear the area around them. Its a strategy that worked perfectly fine.

 

And I think its perfectly ridiculous to single out Aes Sedai for wearing gowns (not that I think you are, Barid). The Aiel wear bulky woolen skirts, the Damane and sul'dam wear dresses and are even more physically encumbered than the AS due to their ridiculous leash, the Sharan's wear gowns too, if different in cut. Can anyone name one female channeler who fought in anything but skirts or gowns? 

 

As for Demandred... it is strongly implied that he did, in fact, chose to lay a trap for the Aes Sedai. But isn't that a testament to the threat they posed? Fallen from their glory years, severely reduced in numbers, just recently reunited as a single force, they still posed the most severe risk to the Shadow. Demandred chose them, not the Seanchan, or the Aiel or the Borderlanders. 

 

To be sure, the Aes Sedai could have been much, much more. But I don't think Demandred laying a trap for them semi-successfully takes away from them. To the contrary.

Edited February 6, 2013 by fionwe1987

[Barid Bel Medar]

Oh, I totally agree. As I said, I agree that they did well. 

 

And yes, they have warders, which are supposed to take care of things. However, that doesn't mean they should wear unsuitable attire. 

 

The Death Star was a perfectly formidable fortress apart from that one ventilation shaft. 

 

I was merely saying that you can't dismiss it as a flaw. I agree that it is fairly inconsequential, and don't agree that it means they are stupid - however, it is still something. 

 

That of course goes for all of the other's you mentioned. I was only responding to Aes Sedai, but I don't limit it to them. Aviendha frequently thinks how silly it is for her to be wearing those skirts in battle. In fact, IIRC, she disposes of her Wise One garb when going into battle at Shayol Ghul. Anyone who wears inconvenient clothing into battle - no matter who or how powerful they are - is needlessly endangering themselves no matter how good they think their defences are. Why would you even risk it? 

 

Edit 2: For that matter - I don't even restrict it to women. I would say the same of a male channeler if he chose to wear unsuitable clothing. I can't recall this ever being a point, but if it is, then I say the same about them. 

 

(of course, I understand what you mean when it is silly to single the Aes Sedai out .)

 

Demandred has a sa'angreal and 400 Ayyad, yet he wore full battle armour. Of course, his flaws lay elsewhere, but the point remains. Not that I expected Aes Sedai to wear full chain-mail, but something comfortable and easy to move in at least. 

 

Also, I mentioned the Kandor battle not because it invalidates their skills, but because that battle isn't valid for assessment. The Shadow was letting them win to draw them into the trap, which was then sprung and things went downwards from there. 

 

That the trap was needed does indeed show the Tower as a threat, but that wasn't my point. It was in reply to an example of their prowess was the Kandor battlefront. Which it wasn't. As Egwene herself thinks, they were doing TOO well. Making their performance invalid since it was designed to make them think they were awesome. Not that all the effort is invalid of course, just that it was an unreliable account of their performance 

 

But overall, as I have said, they were far from incompetent. Far from perfect, but certainly non-negligible. Things would have been far worse if the Tower was not at the LB.  

 

 

Edit: With Graendal, also remember how she was finally taken down. Aviendha speared her - made of the OP, true, but any spear would have worked.(Yes, I know she wasn't instantly killed, but that blow was the thing that ended her killing spree.)

Edited February 6, 2013 by Barid Bel Medar

[XXX]

 

I meant prepared to fight channelers in battle not the ocassional man they need to gentle. If they do how did they show up to battle in skirts they can't move fast in?

 

Do they work out physically, do any of them know how to fight with their hands,do any of them know how to use any weapons other weilding the OP? How do they ride horses,sideways I assume wearing a skirt.How can you fight like that or even ride fast?

 

They show none of the characteristics of a organization tuned to fight battles on a mega scale.

They can move fast by picking up their skirts and running.  Moiraine did it in New Spring.  And you can ride normally with a skirt - you don't have to ride side-saddle.  And if you have the OP, you don't really need weapons, do you?  Even if Mat's medallion prevented weaves being thrown directly at him, you could still throw other things with the OP, or blast the ground beneath that person's feet....

 

I don't see the need to quibble about skirts as showing that an organization is completely unprepared for the LB because it really isn't important.  The AS kicked butt in Kandor until the Sharans arrived and even then at the FoM they held out quite well considering they were completely outnumbered, and with Egwene's help even managed to drive them back until the balefire fiasco.

 

AS held their own till the other chanellers entered the fray and then it was a downward spiral from there. There is  a quote in the book that you cannot run fast in skirts from someone.

 

Even if you have OP it is a good idea to learn how to fight with hands and weapons.Rand knew that and he was a shepherd at that time.The AS with their vast knowledge did not think of it? Do they work out physically?,I do not think there is a statement about it in 14 books. When u r prepared to fight a mega battle you do all these things.

 

And all AS do not have warders.And even if you do why would you not learn all these things if you ur primary aim is to fight the LB?

Edited February 6, 2013 by XXX47

[fionwe1987]

And all AS do not have warders.And even if you do why would you not learn all these things if you ur primary aim is to fight the LB?

This is the primary aim of one Ajah. Which is notably filled with sisters who are generally described to be fitter and more capable than others. And they have mutliple Warders. And their quarters are filled with swords and knives and shields, and it can be inferred that at least some of them are capable with knives.

 

Look at the description of Keren Nagashi, and the Greens. from NS:

 

 

Rina Hafden, who somehow made a square face lovely and a stocky build both elegant and graceful, was urging them on with a wide smile, calling, "Well struck, Waylin! Oh, very well struck, Elyas!"

 

She's clearly not clueless about sword-fighting, even if she doesn't fight herself.

 

 

The few tapestries in Kerene's sitting room were scenes of war or hunting...

...daggers adorned with gems and gold and daggers with plain wooden hilts...

...a steel-backed gauntlet stained black with what Moiraine was sure was blood...

...violence and death decorating her walls...

... Even here, she wore a riding dress, the divided skirts slashed with emerald green, and her dark hair, lightly touched with white, was cut shorter than either Karile's or Stepin's, above her shoulders, and gathered in a thick braid. No doubt it was easier to care for while traveling, cut like that ...

 

The Greens, at least, are very martial. We've seen Yellows and Blues with similar attitudes too. All that just never came across in Brandon's writing.

 

And please go see what divided skirts and riding dresses look like. They're nowhere close to as encumbering as full skirts are, and allow much quicker motion. That's what the Aes Sedai were dressed in, likely.

[Rhienne]

 

And all AS do not have warders.And even if you do why would you not learn all these things if you ur primary aim is to fight the LB?

This is the primary aim of one Ajah. Which is notably filled with sisters who are generally described to be fitter and more capable than others. And they have mutliple Warders. And their quarters are filled with swords and knives and shields, and it can be inferred that at least some of them are capable with knives.

 

Look at the description of Keren Nagashi, and the Greens. from NS:

 

 

>Rina Hafden, who somehow made a square face lovely and a stocky build both elegant and graceful, was urging them on with a wide smile, calling, "Well struck, Waylin! Oh, very well struck, Elyas!"

 

She's clearly not clueless about sword-fighting, even if she doesn't fight herself.

 

 

The few tapestries in Kerene's sitting room were scenes of war or hunting...

...daggers adorned with gems and gold and daggers with plain wooden hilts...

...a steel-backed gauntlet stained black with what Moiraine was sure was blood...

...violence and death decorating her walls...

... Even here, she wore a riding dress, the divided skirts slashed with emerald green, and her dark hair, lightly touched with white, was cut shorter than either Karile's or Stepin's, above her shoulders, and gathered in a thick braid. No doubt it was easier to care for while traveling, cut like that ...

 

The Greens, at least, are very martial. We've seen Yellows and Blues with similar attitudes too. All that just never came across in Brandon's writing.

 

And please go see what divided skirts and riding dresses look like. They're nowhere close to as encumbering as full skirts are, and allow much quicker motion. That's what the Aes Sedai were dressed in, likely.

 

I don't think these are very convincing arguments for the AS knowing anything about fighting with weapons.  Rina wasn't calling out sword forms or giving an informed commentary on her sparring Warders.  Her comments could have been made by a fishwife.

 

And there is no evidence from Kerene's belongings that she knows anything about using any of them.  I think one of the daggers is a marriage dagger presented as thanks for resolving a marital dispute or something like that.  I think it is more likely that the weapons forming part of her collection were either presented to her ceremonially, or maybe trophies/relics to remind her of battles.  I very much doubt she was wearing a gauntlet.

[fionwe1987]

Oh, I totally agree. As I said, I agree that they did well. 

 

And yes, they have warders, which are supposed to take care of things. However, that doesn't mean they should wear unsuitable attire. 

I don't think they did. They all rode horses, and we know they don't ride side saddle in the WoT world. They must have been in riding dresses, which Brandon just failed to describe.

The Death Star was a perfectly formidable fortress apart from that one ventilation shaft. 

 

I was merely saying that you can't dismiss it as a flaw. I agree that it is fairly inconsequential, and don't agree that it means they are stupid - however, it is still something. 

 

That of course goes for all of the other's you mentioned. I was only responding to Aes Sedai, but I don't limit it to them. Aviendha frequently thinks how silly it is for her to be wearing those skirts in battle. In fact, IIRC, she disposes of her Wise One garb when going into battle at Shayol Ghul. Anyone who wears inconvenient clothing into battle - no matter who or how powerful they are - is needlessly endangering themselves no matter how good they think their defences are. Why would you even risk it? 

 

Edit 2: For that matter - I don't even restrict it to women. I would say the same of a male channeler if he chose to wear unsuitable clothing. I can't recall this ever being a point, but if it is, then I say the same about them. 

 

(of course, I understand what you mean when it is silly to single the Aes Sedai out .)

 

Demandred has a sa'angreal and 400 Ayyad, yet he wore full battle armour. Of course, his flaws lay elsewhere, but the point remains. Not that I expected Aes Sedai to wear full chain-mail, but something comfortable and easy to move in at least. 

How much of Demandred wearing armor was ceremonial, though? Rand didn't wear armor either.

Also, I mentioned the Kandor battle not because it invalidates their skills, but because that battle isn't valid for assessment. The Shadow was letting them win to draw them into the trap, which was then sprung and things went downwards from there. 

But it is valid for assessment, so long as you assess the right thing. Is it a good assessment of their destructive ability against non-channelers? Yes, though tempered with Brandon's nonsense about circles not being used. Is it a good assessment of the level of fear the Shadow felt about them? Yes. Is it a good assessment of their skills against channelers? No.

That the trap was needed does indeed show the Tower as a threat, but that wasn't my point. It was in reply to an example of their prowess was the Kandor battlefront. Which it wasn't. As Egwene herself thinks, they were doing TOO well. Making their performance invalid since it was designed to make them think they were awesome. Not that all the effort is invalid of course, just that it was an unreliable account of their performance 

I don't think it was designed to make them think they were awesome. It wasn't as if the Trollocs were sent in fewer numbers. The point was to keep them engaged, and draw them into a situation where the Sharans could attack an empty camp, and throw the already engaged Aes Sedai frontlines into chaos. That the Aes Sedai had to be attacked when they were engaged by overwhelming numbers of Trollocs is telling, no? Brandon never really alluded to it, but as far back as LoC, the Aes Sedai had a very effective strategy to deal with unexpected channelers in their midst. They'd form circles and engage them. While no single circle the AS could form would have been able to match Demandred's circle of 72, they'd have been able to engage them enough to allow for an ordered escape, if Demandred attacked while they were resting in camp. They needed to be far away, and split into smaller forces dealing with Trollocs for Demandred to successfully damage their army. And still, the army regrouped remarkably quickly.

But overall, as I have said, they were far from incompetent. Far from perfect, but certainly non-negligible. Things would have been far worse if the Tower was not at the LB.  

Yup, that's my assessment too. They could certainly have been more. But they were far from insignificant. Barring Mat himself, they were certainly the next greatest asset for the Light. Which only points to how much greater they could have been if they'd pulled their shit together sooner.

Edit: With Graendal, also remember how she was finally taken down. Aviendha speared her - made of the OP, true, but any spear would have worked.(Yes, I know she wasn't instantly killed, but that blow was the thing that ended her killing spree.)

Yes, but its not like Graendal could have countered this attack better if she knew to use the sword. Aviendha's true victory over Graendal only came with the unwoven Gateway.

[fionwe1987]

 

 

And all AS do not have warders.And even if you do why would you not learn all these things if you ur primary aim is to fight the LB?

This is the primary aim of one Ajah. Which is notably filled with sisters who are generally described to be fitter and more capable than others. And they have mutliple Warders. And their quarters are filled with swords and knives and shields, and it can be inferred that at least some of them are capable with knives.

 

Look at the description of Keren Nagashi, and the Greens. from NS:

 

 

>>Rina Hafden, who somehow made a square face lovely and a stocky build both elegant and graceful, was urging them on with a wide smile, calling, "Well struck, Waylin! Oh, very well struck, Elyas!"

lockquote>

 

She's clearly not clueless about sword-fighting, even if she doesn't fight herself.

 

 

>The few tapestries in Kerene's sitting room were scenes of war or hunting...

...daggers adorned with gems and gold and daggers with plain wooden hilts...

...a steel-backed gauntlet stained black with what Moiraine was sure was blood...

...violence and death decorating her walls...

... Even here, she wore a riding dress, the divided skirts slashed with emerald green, and her dark hair, lightly touched with white, was cut shorter than either Karile's or Stepin's, above her shoulders, and gathered in a thick braid. No doubt it was easier to care for while traveling, cut like that ...

 

The Greens, at least, are very martial. We've seen Yellows and Blues with similar attitudes too. All that just never came across in Brandon's writing.

 

And please go see what divided skirts and riding dresses look like. They're nowhere close to as encumbering as full skirts are, and allow much quicker motion. That's what the Aes Sedai were dressed in, likely.

 

I don't think these are very convincing arguments for the AS knowing anything about fighting with weapons.  Rina wasn't calling out sword forms or giving an informed commentary on her sparring Warders.  Her comments could have been made by a fishwife.

Fishwives know to distinguish between good and bad sword strikes? Since when?

And there is no evidence from Kerene's belongings that she knows anything about using any of them.  I think one of the daggers is a marriage dagger presented as thanks for resolving a marital dispute or something like that. 

You're mixing her up with Meidani, a Grey.

I think it is more likely that the weapons forming part of her collection were either presented to her ceremonially, or maybe trophies/relics to remind her of battles.  I very much doubt she was wearing a gauntlet.

I think its more likely one of her Warders was. I'm not saying she personally uses all the weapons. She certainly never used the hammer! The point is that her quarters are very martial in their decorations, and she has many weapons, and she's always dressed ready to ride off. That's as close to combat ready as she could have been, short of RJ converting her into a chainmail bikini wearing caricature of a female warrior. We've seen any number of Aes Sedai wear belt-knives and daggers. We've even seen one of them use it when shielded (Vandene, a Green). I don't quite see the point of them training in swords, though. Or becoming masters at hand to hand combat. I'm yet to see a realistic situation where this would be useful for them.

 

Channeling, as we know, is physically draining enough. Leaping about with swords will only add to that. The Aes Sedai solution is best. Take on skilled warriors, boost their speed and strength, and boost your own endurance, by using a Warder Bond. For the last resort, maybe carry a knife.  

[Yamezt]

The point about armour is a good one with all channellers (male or female). We are often told about stray arrows can kill them and all the channelling wouldn't save them. Yet, only Demandred is seen with armour - though it is probably only ceremonial.

 

I don't see the skirts a huge issue. The Sul'dum and Damane are in skirts and leashed together. Their mobility must probably be the worst among all, yet they are always considered/written to be formidable. You would think a nation very comfortable with war would dress them more suited to war. Personally I think it is RJ's bias they stay in dress.

 

Anyway looking at battles historically, armies don't always wear sensible clothes we see now. We take it for granted now soldiers wear camos suitable to their environment. Yet, not too long ago, armies were in Scarlets, with your officers wearing more elaborate headgear to single them out. 

Edited February 6, 2013 by James Tham

[XXX]

 

And all AS do not have warders.And even if you do why would you not learn all these things if you ur primary aim is to fight the LB?

This is the primary aim of one Ajah. Which is notably filled with sisters who are generally described to be fitter and more capable than others. And they have mutliple Warders. And their quarters are filled with swords and knives and shields, and it can be inferred that at least some of them are capable with knives.

 

Look at the description of Keren Nagashi, and the Greens. from NS:

 

 

>Rina Hafden, who somehow made a square face lovely and a stocky build both elegant and graceful, was urging them on with a wide smile, calling, "Well struck, Waylin! Oh, very well struck, Elyas!"

 

She's clearly not clueless about sword-fighting, even if she doesn't fight herself.

 

 

The few tapestries in Kerene's sitting room were scenes of war or hunting...

...daggers adorned with gems and gold and daggers with plain wooden hilts...

...a steel-backed gauntlet stained black with what Moiraine was sure was blood...

...violence and death decorating her walls...

... Even here, she wore a riding dress, the divided skirts slashed with emerald green, and her dark hair, lightly touched with white, was cut shorter than either Karile's or Stepin's, above her shoulders, and gathered in a thick braid. No doubt it was easier to care for while traveling, cut like that ...

 

The Greens, at least, are very martial. We've seen Yellows and Blues with similar attitudes too. All that just never came across in Brandon's writing.

 

And please go see what divided skirts and riding dresses look like. They're nowhere close to as encumbering as full skirts are, and allow much quicker motion. That's what the Aes Sedai were dressed in, likely.

 

 

There is a statement in AMOL from Egwene I think which says that they cannot run fast in the skirts they wear.

[fionwe1987]

 

 

And all AS do not have warders.And even if you do why would you not learn all these things if you ur primary aim is to fight the LB?

This is the primary aim of one Ajah. Which is notably filled with sisters who are generally described to be fitter and more capable than others. And they have mutliple Warders. And their quarters are filled with swords and knives and shields, and it can be inferred that at least some of them are capable with knives.

 

Look at the description of Keren Nagashi, and the Greens. from NS:

 

 

>>Rina Hafden, who somehow made a square face lovely and a stocky build both elegant and graceful, was urging them on with a wide smile, calling, "Well struck, Waylin! Oh, very well struck, Elyas!"

lockquote>

 

She's clearly not clueless about sword-fighting, even if she doesn't fight herself.

 

 

>The few tapestries in Kerene's sitting room were scenes of war or hunting...

...daggers adorned with gems and gold and daggers with plain wooden hilts...

...a steel-backed gauntlet stained black with what Moiraine was sure was blood...

...violence and death decorating her walls...

... Even here, she wore a riding dress, the divided skirts slashed with emerald green, and her dark hair, lightly touched with white, was cut shorter than either Karile's or Stepin's, above her shoulders, and gathered in a thick braid. No doubt it was easier to care for while traveling, cut like that ...

 

The Greens, at least, are very martial. We've seen Yellows and Blues with similar attitudes too. All that just never came across in Brandon's writing.

 

And please go see what divided skirts and riding dresses look like. They're nowhere close to as encumbering as full skirts are, and allow much quicker motion. That's what the Aes Sedai were dressed in, likely.

 

 

There is a statement in AMOL from Egwene I think which says that they cannot run fast in the skirts they wear.

 

The only quote is from Pevara, and she didn't ride a horse into the battle.

[Suttree]

Indeed we have quotes from earlier in the series which clearly detail what the divided skirts are like for AS whne travelling.

[XXX]

Okay if it was from Pevera.The point remains, the AS wore skirts to battle in which they could not move fast,And most of them were not fighting from horses but on the ground.

 

And where in the books does it say that the Green sisters are fitter and in better physical shape than the other AS?

Edited February 7, 2013 by XXX47