Rand's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[titan]

Perhaps the whole issue with the DO was a trick. Who presented the vision with no evil = no free will? It was the DO. Maybe the DO wanted rand to think that so as to save his own butt. The DO is known as the father of lies after all.

That was Rand's vision.  The DO couldn't participate in that one fully, lest he be annihilated.  DO asked Rand if he (Rand) thought that was his idea of perfection.

[GB]

who was the woman resembling an aiel in the end when rand is trying to get out of SG?

[mykal71]

who was the woman resembling an aiel in the end when rand is trying to get out of SG?

Nakomi... Maybe...?? Now who Nakomi is, is another question entirely! My personal theory is that she's The Creator incarnate. I mean, if the DO can influence the world, why not the Creator, too? But that's just me...

[Ashaman Valen]

Perhaps the whole issue with the DO was a trick. Who presented the vision with no evil = no free will? It was the DO. Maybe the DO wanted rand to think that so as to save his own butt. The DO is known as the father of lies after all.

That was Rand's vision.  The DO couldn't participate in that one fully, lest he be annihilated.  DO asked Rand if he (Rand) thought that was his idea of perfection.

 

My bad. I must have remembered it wrong. Next time ill double check before posting :)

[GB]

 

who was the woman resembling an aiel in the end when rand is trying to get out of SG?

Nakomi... Maybe...?? Now who Nakomi is, is another question entirely! My personal theory is that she's The Creator incarnate. I mean, if the DO can influence the world, why not the Creator, too? But that's just me...

yeah nakomi came to my mind but i am not sure ah well

[Mr. Micawber]

The man tagged and bagged the hottest of the three chicks. Big ups bro

 

Edit: for values of hot where hot = not a complete moron or annoying along with informed abilities coming out of nowhere (philosophy genius, ter angreal maker, greatest ruler, and the Doomseeing which was originally her only ability and should have been left at that)

 

Ie. where hot = incredibly attractive physically, personalitywise, and as a damn well written character

[Tom Dunwoodie]

So there is no Creator right, unless Rand is now the Creator?

[NeekNack]

I see all these posts about how Rand should have destroyed the Dark One, how Shai'tan had no place in the world, and I feel like everyone of those people was reading a different story than I was.  So much of WoT was based around the idea of balance.  Removing the Dark One essentially turned everyone into "turned" versions of themselves, the fact that they were turned for the light only put it half a step above being turned toward the dark, without the ability to choose there was no point.

 

Rand was able to bring them back to an Age of Legends type world.  By using the true power, he didn't just patch the bore, he completely re-did the damage that those in the Age of Legends had done.  We can see this, though not directly, through Moghedian being collared.  There was no longer access to the True Power, because the DO was completely shut away again.

 

Also, while Rand may have set them back on another rotation that will eventually lead to another confrontation with the DO, the next Dragon will be equipped with the memories of how to do exactly what Rand just did. 

[Suttree]

Also, while Rand may have set them back on another rotation that will eventually lead to another confrontation with the DO, the next Dragon will be equipped with the memories of how to do exactly what Rand just did.

That isn't how it works. Rand got a just a glimpse of his past lives on DM after that he only had LTT's memories. He will have been reborn other times between now and when he is next needed and will not have access to how he fixes things.

 

Do agree with some of the other things you say however.

[MarkDiLillo]

Keep in mind also that Rand only had access to his memories from LTT as a result of the taint on saidin.  It was essentially madness.  The running theme of the series is that individual events ARE unique - just in a world that repeats itself.  Hence the final phrase of the book about how it was AN ending, but there are no endings in the WoT.

[jwillis7]

I see all these posts about how Rand should have destroyed the Dark One, how Shai'tan had no place in the world, and I feel like everyone of those people was reading a different story than I was.  So much of WoT was based around the idea of balance.  Removing the Dark One essentially turned everyone into "turned" versions of themselves, the fact that they were turned for the light only put it half a step above being turned toward the dark, without the ability to choose there was no point.

 

Rand was able to bring them back to an Age of Legends type world.  By using the true power, he didn't just patch the bore, he completely re-did the damage that those in the Age of Legends had done.  We can see this, though not directly, through Moghedian being collared.  There was no longer access to the True Power, because the DO was completely shut away again.

 

Also, while Rand may have set them back on another rotation that will eventually lead to another confrontation with the DO, the next Dragon will be equipped with the memories of how to do exactly what Rand just did. 

but this had been done before, and rand did not remember doing it.  The Dragon had to shut him away for the AoL people to bore it, so the Dragoni can seal it so they can bore it......... "LTT" will again patch the bore again. And "Rand" will shut it up

[jwillis7]

dp sorry

[KakitaOCU]

Here's a really blunt attempt at an explanation regarding the DO and Creator. They are outside the pattern but still influence it.

 

Think of it like a water faucet. Except the faucent is holding back the ocean, not a water pipe. Each knob is holding its own ocean, one of hot water, one of cold. No matter that they are held back from your shower they still affect it, they still bleed in in limited amounts in balance to get you nice warm water. But snap the faucent on either side and you have a flood that destroys everything.

 

That's a really dumb way of viewing the metaphysics. The bore was basically breaking open the hot water valve. But if you completely remove the hot water you'll only ever have cold again. So you patch it, then you fix it with a new knob putting it back the way it was so you have warm again.

 

That's the theme RJ set with the DO and the Creator, they are both outside the pattern, giving the influence of good and evil, or order and chaos, or what have you. They are outside so it's just the raw influence and small trickles of their essence that mix into the pattern and leave us with our choices. When the bore gets opened one side floods in and risks destruction. (I still have my whack-job theory that at some point in the turning of the wheel of the opposite of this happens and we have something like the Jasmine Arc of Angel minus the people eating.)

 

Edit: Dragon mount hates spacing.

[MrBlack]

Yeah it was weird that Rand's seeming extra powers in ToM were then apparently reconned(using an item of power at Maradon, heartbeat trick to find DF's, Brandon quote about Rand powering up as of KoD) Its like they all of a sudden decided they didn't want the power up post TGS epiphany but wanted to save it for the end in AMoL.

I still don't think that Moridin's explanation for Rand's ability to find Darkfriends is true.  Moridin gave his explanation for it because he didn't believe that Rand actaully had the ability, but Rand demonstrated that he had some sort of extra abilities in the very next paragraph.  Moridin's explanation also fails to address why the two Darkfriends in Maradon freaked out when Rand attacked the Trolloc army.

 

Setting aside Brandon's comment, the use of the angreal at Maradon doesn't really affect the story at all.

[Sam Giroux]

I am actually surprised no one has quoted page 891, "He understood, finally, that the Dark One was not the enemy.  It never had been."  

 

The DO was not our problem, it was our greed for power that help thin a place in the pattern that unsettled the balance of good and evil.  There need to be that balance...that CHOICE.  If there is no evil option to choose, then good is all there is and we are FORCED into that option.  Think of anything you are forced to do.  Is it your best work?  Is your heart into it? No, we would be turned into good robots and as we saw in that version of the pattern, it was bad...Not right.

 

What Rand did is re-balance good and evil.  Now they both have equal "touch" on the world and people now have equal choice.  Remember that CHOICE is the recurring theme here.  The people Turned had no choice and they were very average has evil people, the same would be for good people.  Choice to fight for your world, choice to die, choice...

 

The DO is essential to the balance of the pattern, but nothing special to us if we do not choose it to be so.  

[Sam Giroux]

I am actually surprised no one has quoted page 891, "He understood, finally, that the Dark One was not the enemy.  It never had been."  

 

The DO was not our problem, it was our greed for power that help thin a place in the pattern that unsettled the balance of good and evil.  There need to be that balance...that CHOICE.  If there is no evil option to choose, then good is all there is and we are FORCED into that option.  Think of anything you are forced to do.  Is it your best work?  Is your heart into it? No, we would be turned into good robots and as we saw in that version of the pattern, it was bad...Not right.

 

What Rand did is re-balance good and evil.  Now they both have equal "touch" on the world and people now have equal choice.  Remember that CHOICE is the recurring theme here.  The people Turned had no choice and they were very average has evil people, the same would be for good people.  Choice to fight for your world, choice to die, choice...

 

The DO is essential to the balance of the pattern, but nothing special to us if we do not choose it to be so.  

[jwillis7]

 

Yeah it was weird that Rand's seeming extra powers in ToM were then apparently reconned(using an item of power at Maradon, heartbeat trick to find DF's, Brandon quote about Rand powering up as of KoD) Its like they all of a sudden decided they didn't want the power up post TGS epiphany but wanted to save it for the end in AMoL.

I still don't think that Moridin's explanation for Rand's ability to find Darkfriends is true.  Moridin gave his explanation for it because he didn't believe that Rand actaully had the ability, but Rand demonstrated that he had some sort of extra abilities in the very next paragraph.  Moridin's explanation also fails to address why the two Darkfriends in Maradon freaked out when Rand attacked the Trolloc army.

 

Setting aside Brandon's comment, the use of the angreal at Maradon doesn't really affect the story at all.

 

i agree. i think it was how the Forsaken explained what Weiramon said happened.  I mean just think of how that scene would go

 

"my lord the lord dragon knew i was a darkfriend"

"No one can tell if someone is a darkfrined fool"

"but he knew just by looking at me......"

"you must have done something or got scared he would find out"

 

 

and jsut like people are saying, it might explain Weiramon but it does not explain the people at Maradon.

[Mr. Micawber]

The word y'all are looking for is:

 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Retcon

[Ixade]

Simply my opinion when I read it, but here we go. 

 

I see the Dark One as not necessarily evil, but the nothingness between things. Evil is a factor, but not all of it.  The dark one is the gaps between the threads in the pattern. The whole thinness of the pattern was where the threads were far apart and how the Dark one was everywhere, but stronger there. 

 

So in balance the pattern can flex, bunch, and stretch in different areas while allowing each thread (individual) to meander and shift through the pattern. 

 

If there was only the creator and the dark one was defeated then the pattern would be flat with no gaps between threads. Running the program the creator wrote over and over. 

If there was no creator then it would only be the nothingness, but in effect it would destroy the dark one as well because shadow cannot exist without light. 

What the Dark one wanted however was to twist the pattern to its liking making the absence of conscience. This is the only way the Dark one could be successful because as long as there is free will someone will eventually say "no" and defeat the Dark one. 

 

So the options are either puppets on one spectrum or the other or non-existence. The meaning of life is the choice and free will. Rand had to feel like a puppet to understand this truth which is why the event on Dragonmount was so important. It was not the decisive moment, but it was the first step towards the path of balance and the knowledge to make the choice he needed to make. 

[Mr. Micawber]

Considering we know the ultimate victory of the Shadow is in fact nothingness, I think you might be on to something, bro

[Christina Gleason]

Considering we know the ultimate victory of the Shadow is in fact nothingness, I think you might be on to something, bro

No, because Rand even calls the DO out on the fact that he COULDN'T grant oblivion.

[Mr. Micawber]

Considering we know the ultimate victory of the Shadow is in fact nothingness, I think you might be on to something, bro

No, because Rand even calls the DO out on the fact that he COULDN'T grant oblivion.

 

Uh, Karistina, bro, the ultimate victory would have been the Big Guy getting Rand to balefire the universe. Hence, nothingness

[Mr. Micawber]

That was kinda, y'know, the climax of TGS

[jwillis7]

Getting the Dragon to destroy the pattern is not destroying the wheel.  And the Dragon doing it is not the DO doing it

[Ixade]

Couldn't isn't the same as Wouldn't. It simply isn't the nature of the Dark one to do that, which is why the Dark one would not have done what Moridin wanted. That does not preclude the ability.