Flying with the Power

[vegetattack15]

My intention of the purpose of this thread is not so much the practicallity of flying, but the possibility of it happening. A lot of the arguments I've heard for my theories are that it would take to much of the power to sustain, but yes it would work. So anybody got any ideas of how to sustain it a little easier?

[Thor]

That's pretty much just like optimizing performance of race cars, simple hard grinding trial and error with some experiment.

 

Or if you have computer programs you just tell the program to do it for you. :lol:

[SBoydW]

And also, you only need a small amount to take off and accelerate, after you reach a certain speed, you don't need more energy to maintain a constant speed.

 

So when a plane takes off it can simply shut off it's engines and stay in the air? No it's engine have to stay running delivering the energy to stay in the air. Same with a bird. It has to flap it's wings at some point to stay aflight.

 

So yes a channeler would have to continuosly channel to sustain flight and, save a very few, none could do it. And those few not for a distance worth doing it.

 

And as I said times and again already, Travelling leaves a massive residue that can be easily tracked, flying won't be trackable.

 

No I;m not sure of a way to invert a traveling weave. But there is a way to close the gate that it won't leave a Residue. Aviendha can "unweave" a gateway so as to make it not leave a residue.

[Thor]

And how many people can unweave? Elayne was lucky that she was not blown up. Even Aviendha admitted that it was a rare skill.

 

And I didn't say that it's not possible to open gateway using inverted weaves, I'm asking did it happen anywhere when I might have dozzed off reading (don't hit me, I read late into the night).

 

The plane only provides enough to keep itself in midair to support its own weight, the foward thrust is merely to counter the air resistance and drag. The amount of energy used during flight is far less than the amount used during takeoff, evident even by the engine noises.

[vegetattack15]

How about a sheild of air to protect you from the weave of fire you use as propulsion on your feet?Sorta like Syndrome's rocket boots on the incredibles.

[SBoydW]

And how many people can unweave? Elayne was lucky that she was not blown up. Even Aviendha admitted that it was a rare skill.

 

How many people could travel before they were taught? How many Aes Sedai could make ter'angreal or cuendiallar before they were taught? Right now it's only Aviendha, but she taught Elayne. And the only reason Elayne nearly got blown up was because I believe she had just been shot, and they had to go out of range of her ability to unweave effectivley.

 

Look I'm not saying that flying isn't possible period, just not at this point in time. no one currently alive has the skill or strength to do it. Maybe once the darkone has been re-sealed killed whatever another AoL will roll around and there will be Sho-Wings again, or there equivilent. But until then, Flying effectively is impossible.

[Thor]

General feeling is that channeling will get phased out after the last battle, so it's now or never.

[SBoydW]

Well then it's never... at least until a new begining rolls around.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I don't really think that's an appropriate analogy for channeling. Sense when can Egwene Physically grab someone and lift them ten-fifteen feet over her head.

 

Its not a matter of strength, its a matter of leverage. To lift something up, you have to be pushing on something under it. Wings on an airplane do this by creating a pressure difference between the air above, and the air below. But if two people are both exerting enough pressure on each other to lift each other up, the pressures would cancel each other out. Thats why I can pick up my brother, and he can pick me up, but we can't pick each other up at the same time.

 

Energy doesn't need to be stored all at once, accumulation = input - output.

 

Thor, we have never seen any channeler store the Power in their own body for later output. Ever.

 

If One Power is not energy then what is it? Anything that exist is energy, in one form or another.

 

The One Power is a form of energy. The energy is CHANNELLED, not stored, by the CHANNELER.

 

And as I said times and again already, Travelling leaves a massive residue that can be easily tracked, flying won't be trackable.

 

I'm sorry ... do you have an example of flying in the books that you could point to to prove that? No, of course you don't, because the author has said "You can't fly with the Power". You assume flying is easy because you've read Superman comics, and it looks easy there. But its not.

 

And also, you only need a small amount to take off and accelerate, after you reach a certain speed, you don't need more energy to maintain a constant speed.

 

Thats just not true. Think how much Power it takes just to lift a person a few inches off the ground. Most Aes Sedai can't even do that even with their full strength. And you think flying takes LESS energy? Thats just .... absurd!

 

And you don't have to expend energy to stay airborne? I'm sorry, Thor, but you truly do not understand the physics of flight at all. It takes a great deal of energy to stay airborne.

 

My intention of the purpose of this thread is not so much the practicallity of flying, but the possibility of it happening. A lot of the arguments I've heard for my theories are that it would take to much of the power to sustain, but yes it would work. So anybody got any ideas of how to sustain it a little easier?

 

Well, thats really the problem. Flying takes an enormous amount of energy.

 

The plane only provides enough to keep itself in midair to support its own weight, the foward thrust is merely to counter the air resistance and drag. The amount of energy used during flight is far less than the amount used during takeoff, evident even by the engine noises.

 

Merely to counter drag? What about GRAVITY? Seriously. Have you listened to an airplane engine in flight? I mean, up close? Its using alot of fuel. Just because it takes alot MORE to get airborne to start with doesn't mean it takes very little to stay airborne. It just means it takes a whole lot to get airborne to start with.

 

How about a sheild of air to protect you from the weave of fire you use as propulsion on your feet?Sorta like Syndrome's rocket boots on the incredibles.

 

Controlling the direction of flight, and landing would both be issues. There's a reason "rocket science" is considered a tough field. (And a reason why the Incredibles is animated ... they can ignore real physics that way)

 

Look ... cartoons are out here, ok guys? Everything in Jordan's world, fantasy though it is, is far more realistic than any cartoon or comic book.

 

Flying is not easy or simple. Jordan (as a physicist) knows this, which is why he said "You can't fly with the Power".

[vegetattack15]

Wait a minute, are you sure Jordan said you can't fly with the power, or are you quoting a naysayer Aes Sedai? I may be using cartoons as a basis, which would certainly not apply to the power, you are correct in that. In the same token though you cannot simply apply science to experiments with the power either, know what I mean. I think though RobertAlexWillis you have made me re-think my ideas of flying with the power. Don't get me wrong, I still think it's possible, now I just think I've been staying inside the box a little too much, maybe it's time to start on the outside. I will take some time for creative theorum, and hopefully come back with innovative ideas.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Wait a minute, are you sure Jordan said you can't fly with the power, or are you quoting a naysayer Aes Sedai?

 

Well ... I am pretty sure that Jordan said it, but since I can't find the source at the moment, I can't say that for sure.

 

All my other objections still apply, and lets not overdo the "naysayer Aes Sedai" bit either. Just because the Aes Sedai have been proven wrong about a couple of things they said couldn't be done, doesn't mean everything they say is wrong. None of the other groups of channelers have found a way to fly either.

 

I will take some time for creative theorum, and hopefully come back with innovative ideas.

 

There probably are creative ways it could be done ... I just feel pretty sure they would take a lot of Power. So much that the problems would outweigh the benefits.

 

My argument is not that "any form of flight with the Power is impossible". My argument is "its not simple, easy, or in the end, worth it". And certainly not as simple as the "Up, up, and away" of Superman fame.

 

If it were tha simple, Aes Sedai, Windfinders, Damane, Wise Ones, Ayyad, and Asha'man would be zipping around everywhere.

[Thor]

"a lot" is subjective, to most channelers, Nynaeve channels "a lot", but is she actually strong? No, all sorts of people pop out of nowhere and proves to be equal or stronger than she is.

[Master of the Blades]

You cannot fly with the One Power. Rand has a POV either in COT or KOD about this. He muses to himself that even the Forsaken did not know how to fly. This implies that he asked Asmodean and or LTT this question.

 

We also know that Aes Sedai cannot lift another person more than a few span it uses up too much of their energy. One example include Siuan trying to lift Gareth Bryne. She thinks to herself it is one of the hardest things to do with the power and then realizes her healing left her weaker in the Power than before her stilling.

 

We also know from ACOS that building bridges of Air have severe limitations. Rand can barely reach the deck of the Wave Dancer. We also learned that with saidar you can extend the bridges only a little further.

 

We also know from AOL that Sho Wings were used to transport people. It is likely they were used to shuttle non channelers since treaveling and skimming were available to Aes Sedai.

 

Could a weave be developed to allow a chaneller to fly? Possibly, there is no evidence that anyone is even looked into that other than Rand. It would require minimizing the energy expended to do so. it would require altering the garvitational forces of nature. It might be possible with a a circle of chanellers. This would appear to be a waste of valuable resources when the alternative would be to travel or skim to the desired location.

[Graendals favourite]

Ok, I read the thread, but sorry if I say what someone has already explained well.

 

The two-people-lift-each-other way simply cannot work. Fundamentally it would violate conservation of momentum, the system of two people cannot change their own momentum without interacting with another body so that the overall momentum would stay the same. You can try it using a long pole. You take hold of a long pole, and ask another to take the other end. If you are very strong, you are able to lift the other person into air. However, if you both try it at the same time, the only thing you'll achieve is that the pole breaks eventually, or rather that only one of the people lifts.

 

There is also a limitation of what can be done with the One Power. It is a power, the channeller can channel energy from the True Source to an object by subjecting it to the One Power that comes from the True source. Lifting someone up, one guides the One Power to exert a lifting force on the one lifted, the One Power is doing work to give the one lifted potential energy. Heating something, the work is done to give the object thermal energy. However, the channeller cannot subject this power to himself as the channeller. This is probably why there are so many personal ter'angreal, the ter'angreal as independent parties can guide the power into the person operating them. The channeller or the ter'angreal acts as the source, and thus cannot affect themselves directly.

 

This from a physical point of view, the other points of the energy needed are just as valid.

[vegetattack15]

How about this one:

 

If you physically enter Telaranriod, can you fly?

[Graendals favourite]

Dunno about that one. Initially I'd say no, but since T'a'r is sort of an illusion or reflection, perhaps it is possible to have the illusion move in respect to oneself, that's what Egwene does when she travels quickly to Salidar, each step moves her in a way impossible in real life. Unless that is because she is sitting on Bela, and not walking herself:).

[vegetattack15]

If there were a way to counter the affect gravity has on your body, which would decrease the earth's hold on you, then it would be as simple as a good strong jump and a stray gust of wind here or there. I know Im going on a tangent, but I just wanted to put this out there to see if anybody would take this idea and run.

 

Any takers?

[Thor]

If you physically enter TAR, ofcourse you can fly.

 

And how much energy do you think is needed to make a human being fly anyways? You people are seriously overestimating the weight of a human being.

[RobertAlexWillis]

If you physically enter TAR, ofcourse you can fly.

 

Yes, the laws of physics don't apply in Tel'aran'rhiod, whether you're there in the flesh or not.

 

And how much energy do you think is needed to make a human being fly anyways? You people are seriously overestimating the weight of a human being.

 

Please, please offer me one shred of evidence to this effect. Make a calculation based on human body weight and the gravitational constant and give us some numbers. I'll be waiting.

 

In the mean time, you've completely ignored the comparable situation from the books, that is, lifting a person off the ground. Very few Aes Sedai can do that. Are you seriously contending that flying takes less energy than lifting someone off the ground?

 

If there were a way to counter the affect gravity has on your body, which would decrease the earth's hold on you, then it would be as simple as a good strong jump and a stray gust of wind here or there.

 

I think the problem with that theory lies in the first phrase: If there were a way to counter the affect gravity has on your body. We don't know of any way to do that, except for a few theoretical ones that all involve huge amounts of energy.

[Thor]

Let's say a person weighs 70kg, to go to 100m off the ground, you need about 68698 Joules assuming that the ascent is ballistic (rough approx).

 

Detonation of one kg of TNT is 4.184 x 10^6 Joules. So only 1.64 x 10^(-2) kg that's 16.4 g of TNT is needed to blow a person up 100m.

 

By what we have seen, there are lots and lots of channelers strong enough to do that. (They're always blowing stuff up.)

 

Once in the air, you no longer need that much energy since a body travels at constant state when net force is 0, so just it's only the innitial acceleration that requires the most power.

 

I don't know what you mean by "it will take so much power". It doesn't, simple fact is that people in Randland does not know how to manipulate the energy, and that there is not enough time for them to do it.

 

edit: ooh left out some 0s.

[Gentled Ben]

"a lot" is subjective, to most channelers, Nynaeve channels "a lot", but is she actually strong? No, all sorts of people pop out of nowhere and proves to be equal or stronger than she is.

 

That doesn't prove anything. It's like saying that since great soccer players come along all the time, Pele wasn't great. Besides, the only women we've seen pop out of anything other than the Bore and be stronger than Nynaeve are Sharina and Alivia. Why and how does that cause Nynaeve to be anything less than strong? Is Moghedien also unremarkable in her strength now?

[Thor]

"a lot" is subjective' date=' to most channelers, Nynaeve channels "a lot", but is she actually strong? No, all sorts of people pop out of nowhere and proves to be equal or stronger than she is.[/quote']

 

That doesn't prove anything. It's like saying that since great soccer players come along all the time, Pele wasn't great. It's absurd. Furthermore, the only woman we've seen pop out of anything other than the Bore and be stronger than Nynaeve is Sharina. Why and how does that cause Nynaeve to be anything less than strong?

 

No, it's like saying Peter Crouch isn't great because there is Pele.

 

edit:

scratch that, Crouch is not good anyways.

 

It's like saying Wayne Rooney isn't great because there is Pele.

 

Hum.. but Rooney isn't that great either.

 

Bah, you get the point.

[Gentled Ben]

Which is still absurd. Talk about subjective!

[Thor]

It is, when you compare to someone better, you are always crap.

 

Like LTT said, only a greater power can break a power, then you are trapped again.

[Gentled Ben]

How is Nynaeve broken? How is she crap? Your self -esteem must be terrible if that's your value system. There's ALWAYS someone better, so by your standards, you're always crap. :roll: That's as absurd as your argument against Nynaeve! Not being the strongest doesn't make her weak. It simply makes them stronger. When, out of thousands and thousands of channelers, only a few are stronger than her, that means she's incredibly strong, indeed.