Prophecy; New and Fulfilled. (Full Spoilers)

[TheGraveIsNoBar]

Were all the prophecies fulfilled then?

[MarkDiLillo]

Were all the prophecies fulfilled then?

 

Yes we can assume so but there are a couple big question marks with some of them that were not clearly hit on.  The shadow prophecy about the broken wolf specifically still confuses me and it's not clear how that's answered.

[Todd Millhouse]

The Broken Wolf was hopper. "Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known" Simple enough to work that out. Except the prophecy had the opposite effect. Instead of breaking Men's Will as it stated. Perrin used that loss and grief and forged a new hope with it in his acceptance as leader and his Hammer. The forging of Mah'alleinir restored hope in Perrin and his people and that spread to others. The Dark Prophecy indicated that Hoppers death would have broken Perrin and though him the rest of the world. That thankfully didn't happen. Perrin had become a king, Mourn The Fallen But Care For The Living, He did what he had to do.

[MarkDiLillo]

All prophecies needed to be fullfilled though.  That was very clear...they are all true just not in the way we expect.

 

That last shadow prophecy really didn't seem to come close to being true IMO.

[Todd Millhouse]

There is a quote somewhere in the series I believe from Rand that says something to the effect of A Prophecy sets the requirements for a thing to happen but even if they are met it doesn't mean it will happen or in the way believed to happen. 

[Edynol]

lol

[Edynol]

Sorry for going off topic, but PMs are totally broken atm. This forum is all buggy. I can reply normally because the text box won't load properly. I have to copy and paste and hit post really quickly to get a post up. I don't have this problem with any other forum, so I think a new forum system needs to be implemented. This one is too glitchy. I'm all for originality, but in this case I think the standard, regular type of forum client is better.

[Suttree]

There is a quote somewhere in the series I believe from Rand that says something to the effect of A Prophecy sets the requirements for a thing to happen but even if they are met it doesn't mean it will happen or in the way believed to happen.

The authors quite clearly stated all prophecies must be fulfilled. That they WILL happen, not always in the ways most obvious however.

[Terez]

 

There is a quote somewhere in the series I believe from Rand that says something to the effect of A Prophecy sets the requirements for a thing to happen but even if they are met it doesn't mean it will happen or in the way believed to happen.

The authors quite clearly stated all prophecies must be fulfilled. That they WILL happen, not always in the ways most obvious however.

 

The only exceptions are 1) Dreams and 2) prophecies given after the Pattern began falling apart. Pretty sure the Broken Wolf prophecy doesn't qualify; it was given to us in TOM but according to Moridin's words it's probably much older. I think that one generally doesn't make any sense, and I wish Brandon hadn't written it, since it was apparently a waste of time to discuss what it might mean.

[MarkDiLillo]

Terez, you actually think Brandon wrote that particular prophecy?  I had assumed the prophecies were left intact as RJ originals.

[Terez]

It's pretty clear Brandon wrote that one. (Edit: the TOM dark prophecy.)

[Ian Ohlander]

Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself.

 

The more I think about it, it seems this has to refer to Ituralda. I've always rejected this idea, as he wasn't a major player and his destruction would seem to have such a drastic effect (nor was it clear how he was broken.)

 

But in AMOL we see a severely broken man in Ituralda. He has some major PTSD that are a result of his time in Maradon. We repeatedly read that his hand shakes. One reference I could find rather quickly was on p, 539 (A Tempest of Water):

Ituralda had to keep his hands clasped behind his back to conceal their shaking. Nothing had been the same after Maradon. He'd learned, but he'd paid dearly for that eduction.

 

So we have a broken man who had been known as the Little Wolf. He has known death. Moreover, he is one of the 4 generals in charge of the forces of the light, arguably defending the most important of battlefields, there at Shayol Ghul, And one of the Towers of Midnight (the forsaken Graendal) tampers with his mind (and not just his but Agelmar, Bryne and Bashere) so that the light is very nearly ready to lose. When this realized, that he and the others have been tampered with, the forces of light lose hope. The Seanchan nearly refused to rejoin Mat because the situation was so dire. Mat, using centuries of battle experience and the ability to 'feel the pulse' of the war, very nearly lost, even when the Seanchan did show up. The damage the tampering of the 4 generals did was so devastating that they were going to lose. There was no hope of victory. The only thing that truly turned the tide was the Horn of Valere being blown at 2 locations. This, despite Androl or the repair of the dragons.

 

Ituralda did not need to literally be consumed by the shadow. His being tampered with, destroying his ability to be what the light side needed it to be, was enough to consume them. He had to be relieved of command. The broken wolf may refer not just to Ituralda, but the group of Captains he represented, in which case, that would be much more accurate then. Their being "consumed" did indeed shake the will of men and bring fear and sorrow.

 

As for the 'fallen blacksmith's pride', I think this refers to Perrin getting that beat down from Slayer. He very nearly gave up. His pride, his belief that he could hunt Slayer and destroy him, had fallen, and it took a heart to heart with Luhan to give him the confidence that he could do it.

 

My two cents anyway.

[Terez]

I think Rand is the Fallen Blacksmith.

[skalors3]

I think Rand is the Fallen Blacksmith.

Finally working! Also, that makes no sense to me.

[MarkDiLillo]

 

I think Rand is the Fallen Blacksmith.

Finally working! Also, that makes no sense to me.

lol

[skalors3]

After re - reading Nicolas foretelling (since I clearly misremembered it (thanks Terez :)) ) I would interpret the boat in a mystical sense, a clean break with the past or the passing of one phase of life to another.

[Christina Gleason]

I think Rand's realization that the Dark One was never the enemy - that it was really about free will and having a choice - means that the yet-unfulfilled prophecies didn't actually HAVE to take place anymore. The boat was one of the "casualties" of the ramifications of this. The prophecies didn't have to be inevitable.

[MarkDiLillo]

I think Rand's realization that the Dark One was never the enemy - that it was really about free will and having a choice - means that the yet-unfulfilled prophecies didn't actually HAVE to take place anymore. The boat was one of the "casualties" of the ramifications of this. The prophecies didn't have to be inevitable.

 

I personally didn't understand what the deal was with that part...

 

I understand the whole logic behind free will and needing the DO around to provide it, but the "the DO was never the enemy" thing doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  He was pretty clearly the enemy

[Viperswhip]

Oh, I really like the Ituralda theory for the broken wolf. Perrin is never broken unless his time in the hospital counts.

 

Wow, Moiraine was kind a of a zealout. You have to sign this, the prophecy says you do lol

 

To me the 3 on the boat thing is very clear that they are separate from everyone else in knowing that Rand is alive, though Alivia also knows. So, it's a bit metaphorical but it is one way to show separation. 

[Amandera]

A man lies dying on a narrow bed. It's important that he not die, but funeral pyre is prepared.

This is one of Egwene's Dreams from ACoS. I guess the man is Rand but why is it important that he not die? He already did his duty, and his "death" is his chance at peace.

[Christina Gleason]

 

I think Rand's realization that the Dark One was never the enemy - that it was really about free will and having a choice - means that the yet-unfulfilled prophecies didn't actually HAVE to take place anymore. The boat was one of the "casualties" of the ramifications of this. The prophecies didn't have to be inevitable.

 

I personally didn't understand what the deal was with that part...

 

I understand the whole logic behind free will and needing the DO around to provide it, but the "the DO was never the enemy" thing doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  He was pretty clearly the enemy

Yeah... I'm actually with you on that. Or if he was not THE enemy - loss of free will? - he was certainly AN enemy. A big one. I also disagree with Rand's assessment that his "perfect world" was AS BAD as any of the DO's alternatives. The loss of your sense of self is definitely not a good thing, but an end to human suffering cannot be compared to the nightmare futures the DO created,

[skalors3]

 

 

 

 

I think Rand's realization that the Dark One was never the enemy - that it was really about free will and having a choice - means that the yet-unfulfilled prophecies didn't actually HAVE to take place anymore. The boat was one of the "casualties" of the ramifications of this. The prophecies didn't have to be inevitable.

He was a necessary part of the world. Albeit evil. It was mans drive for power that freed him. If they never drilled the bore, he would have simply acted in the capacity he was meant too, as balance.

 

I personally didn't understand what the deal was with that part...

 

I understand the whole logic behind free will and needing the DO around to provide it, but the "the DO was never the enemy" thing doesn't make a lot of sense to me. He was pretty clearly the enemy

Yeah... I'm actually with you on that. Or if he was not THE enemy - loss of free will? - he was certainly AN enemy. A big one. I also disagree with Rand's assessment that his "perfect world" was AS BAD as any of the DO's alternatives. The loss of your sense of self is definitely not a good thing, but an end to human suffering cannot be compared to the nightmare futures the DO created,

The DO is simply part of the world. If man hadn't been hungry for power he would have never been released. If we didn't release him, he would have been outside of the pattern, in his bubble, acting out his role of balance.

 

We were our own enemy.

[egwene1225]

As for Prophesies that didn't get fulfilled... Three on a boat comes to mind. Parts of that Prophesy get fulfilled, but the rest does not.

 

Everyone keeps saying that the "Three On a Boat" prophecy wasn't fulfilled, but why are we fixated on it being a literal boat? Avi, Min and Elayne are "in the same boat".  They've all bonded Rand, they all love him, they're the only ones who know what's really happened to him, they're keeping it secret and trying to decide what to do about him.  This is a common metaphor; I don't think its a stretch to say "three on a boat" is referring to how they're the ONLY ones in this situation, it in together, they're "in the same boat".  

[Viperswhip]

 

 

 

As for Prophesies that didn't get fulfilled... Three on a boat comes to mind. Parts of that Prophesy get fulfilled, but the rest does not.

 

Everyone keeps saying that the "Three On a Boat" prophecy wasn't fulfilled, but why are we fixated on it being a literal boat? Avi, Min and Elayne are "in the same boat".  They've all bonded Rand, they all love him, they're the only ones who know what's really happened to him, they're keeping it secret and trying to decide what to do about him.  This is a common metaphor; I don't think its a stretch to say "three on a boat" is referring to how they're the ONLY ones in this situation, it in together, they're "in the same boat".  

Yep, only need a literal boat if you want to sign this song the I'm on a Boat song, youtube it lol

[madpoet]

Three on a boat is a little different than 3 in the same boat ;)  I just think some of the details got lost.  It's sad but understandable.