Prologue Through to the End of the Epilogue--Full Book Discussion.

[dfchang]

 

Should I mention by the way that Rand has a saa in his eye in the fixed shape of a Dragon's Fang?  Ummm . . . good luck getting room and board for chopping some firewood with THAT there.  LoL WTF?? 

 

Well Min does say that the Dragon's Fang will turn into a celebration of victory or whatever instead of the mark of the Dark One, at some point in ToM.  Though I'd guess he'd try to keep that hidden still.

 

I remember that but it will take time.  You see it's beginning in the book when the Black Tower becomes heroes, saving women and children from Trollocs.  The regular people are so grateful with tears in their eyes.  With the cleansing of Saidin and Rand's victory, obviously the residue of The Dragon Reborn will be a lot different this time around than the end of the Age of Legends when he brought on the Breaking.

 

Still, THOUSANDS of years of superstition isn't going to be wiped away in a week, a month, or a year.  I can't imagine people walking around saying "shai tan" for instance anytime soon.  :)

[dfchang]

just another one if i may - Is Mat's General ability decisive in the LB? Is he up against Demandred? Does the Hov come into play

and does Tuon meet her revered ancestor?

 

Whooooo.  Now those are some hard core spoiler questions.  Alright, those who are in here need to know what hey are in for after all.

 

Over the past day of answering questions over PM and here, no one has talked too much about Mat which I find interesting.

 

Let's just say that I disagree with Jason's assessment that Rand and Egwene shine the most in this book.  I think Mat does as well.  He is AWESOME in this book and his General ability is every bit as important as Rand or Egwene in saving the world.  He is  matched up with Demandred through the Last Battle and it is AMAZING to read.  One of the highlights of the book for me and brilliant.

 

The Horn of Valere saves the world.  They don't win the Last Battle without it.  And it saves them not once but TWICE.  So yeah . . .

 

Yes Tuon meets Artur Hawkwing.  You don't see the meeting though.  Mat sends Hawkwing over and tells him to say Mat sent him.  :)

[dfchang]

 

Can I ask why Rand can't channel in the end?

 

A question I would like answered as well.

 

This is complicated.  It's part of the body swap thing.  And answering this requires a pretty long and intricate explanation about how Rand decided to deal with the Dark One which I'm not sure I'm capable of actually summarizing adequately.

 

To make a long story short, Rand soul is somehow transmigrated into Moridin's body.  Moridin's conciousness or what's left of it is placed in Rand's jacked up, tainted body and burned.

 

Now the question is why can't Rand channel? 

 

Well . . . the simple answer is that in doing what he needed to do, it can be argued that he channeled more Saidar, Saidin,and the True Power than all of humanity combined in history.

 

That sorta thing can burn a guy out I guess.

 

Thing is while most are devastated by being burned out or stilled Rand seems just fine with it.   Then again, if he can just THINK shit and it happens like the way he lit his pipe then maybe something else is going on I don't understand.  Normally that's something you do in T'A'R but we're pretty certain we're in the real world there at the end.

[dragosh]

well maybe Rhand is now the opposite of the dark one, The dark one doesn t weave shit..he thinks it and shit happens.

 

now rhand is the light on  rhandland...he doesn 't need to weave, thinking is enough

 

btw do you think that Jordan or sanderson hated the gawyn character, because his death was so foolish that no one can possible can like him after this

[Gavin Doyle]

Ok. So mat is awesome as usual. But the real burning question is: do elayne, nynaeve, egwene, etc actually recognize his awesomeness?

[Lord Melkor]

Question from me, how does Last Battle look like, are the armies actually facing each other on battlefield?

[dragosh]

egwene doesn t need to anymore...

 

everyone recognize his awesomeness, he saved the world and the world knows it.

He was as good as demandred was, perhaps even better because demandred was prepared and he had to plan it as it goes.

 

Deamandred prove to be the most badass general of the dark...it was suprissing how good he was, there was also some tragic about his fall.his people really loved him at the end

[dragosh]

yess!

 

the enemie army is led by demandred and the light by mat. there are muttiple battlefield.Their war is like a chess game played by grandmasters (demandred and mat)

[dragosh]

x

[dfchang]

Question from me, how does Last Battle look like, are the armies actually facing each other on battlefield?

Multiple battle fronts and more than one phase to the Last Battle.

 

The fighting parts are pretty amazing.  Also very depressing since so many soldiers died.  Sorta like WWI when so many died, an entire generation was lost.  They were practically fighting with sticks and stones at the end there.

[dfchang]

x

Well . . . the Sharan society was NOT depicted in a very good light.  Even before Demandred got there, it seemed pretty "evil" . . . darker even than the Seanchan.

 

I'm also not sure if Demandred ever really "loved" his people.  He was consumed, obsessed with beating Lews Therin and at the end of the day he is still Forsaken.

[dfchang]

Ok. So mat is awesome as usual. But the real burning question is: do elayne, nynaeve, egwene, etc actually recognize his awesomeness?

 It is widely accepted that Mat is the best when control was handed to him in the first place.  Egwene, Elayne, everyone took orders from him essentially in the overall battle theater.  And yes, by the end, everyone knows he is beyond a genius.  Even Demandred knows it.

[fionwe1987]

An interesting one: 

 

Rand at the end can't channel saidin or the True Power (obviously) to light his pipe.

 

So he THINKS his pipe on fire and it happens.   Obviously I'm missing something but how the heck is he able to do that?  This is in the real world by the way as far as we can tell.

 

I thought this was fairly obvious. The real world is as open to manipulation as TAR. Just not as easily. We saw Rand and the DO weave threads of the Pattern into different possible realities, and they were called Dreams. While my theory of Reality being a fold of TAR has now undergone quite a few changes, the basic principles hold. That's why, closest to the Bore, in the end, Reality and TAR merge, allowing Lanfear to contemplate her plan.

 

Rand now knows a lot more about the fabric of Reality. He manipulated it, and created a tiny flame. 

 

As for Mat, yes he has an important role. I'm not certain how well that role was presented, though. Compared to how RJ wrote Mat's PoV as he plans battles in KoD, what we have here (whether from RJ or Brandon, I'm not sure which part is whose, yet) is different. More metaphorical. Not sure how I feel about that.

 

As for the ending: My thoughts mirror Terez's exactly. Liked some, didn't like some, and much of my beef is with RJ, here, mostly with execution. 

 

But as to what I liked: I liked how the final solution for the DO incorporated a lot of what had been theorized before (and could thus be arrived at by reading the previous books), yet also had elements that were not easy to expect. Kind of like the Verin reveal. 

 

I loved that the thematic parallels between Egwene and Rand continued, going so far as to give her a Sealing of her own. It becomes clearer what the point of early aMoL (ie. tGS) was. I suspect in a unified aMoL, the parallels would stand out even more. The end was executed well, emotionally and thematically. But I'm miffed we still have no real clue what it was she did! And how she managed to figure it out will be one of the enduring mysteries of the series, I think. We'll have to comb through the series for some hints, I think. But what exactly she is may be revealed only outside. I suspect "River of Souls" will be her PoV, and we'll get to see again her critical conversation with Rand.

 

It was also surprising how the presence of the major characters varied. Rand was there more or less throughout, hardly any Mat in the beginning, absolutely no Perrin in the middle, no Egwene at the end. Barring the last, I'm not certain I'm happy with the other two. Part of it is the split, but a lot of it is the way the Last Battle was structured.

 

Luckers: I don't know if you can discuss this till the 8th, but I think Rand not being able to channel was because he was burnt out. It fits thematically. His body did not get destroyed, unlike Egwene's, because of the bond with Moridin. But he clearly was burnt out. As to how exactly that is possible when he was in a link... that is the part that needs discussion. Part of it is the melding with TAR, I suspect. But it could also be that he released Moiraine and Nynaeve from the link once he had what he needed (when they ran out). Then, he got burnt out.

 

As for Alivia: she didn't help with the swap. Its clear she helped him "die" by giving him to means to escape and start a life in his new body. I think the swap happened naturally, perhaps helped along by Nakomi (an other major mystery from the series).

 

 

I must say I'm very happy that we have so much to discuss after the book. I'm glad everything wasn't neatly tied up, plot wise, even though thematically and emotionally, a lot was. That's exactly what you hope for, with endings.

[dfchang]

I wonder if Nakomi was a very small projection of the Creator?

[spartone]

Ok, so after years of lurking on this board, I decided to finally join the effort - heck, it's the final battle (er book) and all hands are needed....

 

What was the reaction like when Moiraine arrived on scene?  How did both Rand, Nynaeve and the other characters react?  Did either Moiraine or Nynaeve do anything spectacular?  

[dragosh]

 

x

Well . . . the Sharan society was NOT depicted in a very good light.  Even before Demandred got there, it seemed pretty "evil" . . . darker even than the Seanchan.

 

I'm also not sure if Demandred ever really "loved" his people.  He was consumed, obsessed with beating Lews Therin and at the end of the day he is still Forsaken.

i didn t say demandred, i meant his people loved him and were broken when he died...especially his lover. Even taim said that demandred has become softer since he went to sharan...and demandred himself thought perhaps , if he didn t was consumed with hatred, things could be different and that would actualy care about sharan

[Maleshub]

So many questions!!!!!!!!!! And I don't think it will lessen the suspense or anticipation one whit if I learn the answers. I'll still read AMoL and cry!

 

What's the fate of Rand's three women and their relationship to him? DO all four end up retiring somewhere quiet and peaceful?

[Terez]

I suspect "River of Souls" will be her PoV, and we'll get to see again her critical conversation with Rand.

 

Brandon said it wasn't one of the main characters.

[dfchang]

So many questions!!!!!!!!!! And I don't think it will lessen the suspense or anticipation one whit if I learn the answers. I'll still read AMoL and cry!

 

What's the fate of Rand's three women and their relationship to him? DO all four end up retiring somewhere quiet and peaceful?

 

Let's say it is heavily implied that he's going to be getting some very regular booty call . . .  ;)

 

And yes, you will cry . . . at multiple points of the book.

[Terez]

I didn't. This is the first WoT book that didn't bring me to tears even once.

[fionwe1987]

I didn't. This is the first WoT book that didn't bring me to tears even once.

I felt deeply sad, once, and did cry one other time. But that was a lot less than I imagined would be the case. 

 

As for River of Souls... pity. I felt there was a line in the final part of the PoV in question that maybe hinted at it. Verin it is, then.

[fionwe1987]

I wonder if Nakomi was a very small projection of the Creator?

 

I think that could be it. I would have loved to see the two characters who've met her talk about it.

[spartone]

I didn't. This is the first WoT book that didn't bring me to tears even once.

 

Was that due to the way the plot develops in the book?  Or something else?  Just curious, most of other books had at least one tear jerker scene (or so I thought).

[dfchang]

Another issue could just be you are a little numb.

 

The majority of the book is one gigantic battle and you fly from climax to climax, death to death, sacrifice to sacrifice, heroism to heroisim so fast you don't have time to really catch your breath.

 

Then it sorta ends.  And you're like . . . okay. 

 

It definitely doesn't have that Lord of the Rings feel where after the great evil is defeated, you have another couple hundred pages which slowly and lovingly show how that impacts and changes everyone and the land, etc.

 

There ARE emotional scenes in the book but again, smaller and more intimate scenes tend to suffer a little when everything is about saving the world, saving Creation, etc.

 

I got teary eyed in this scene for the little things.  I didn't shed a tear when Egwene died but the end when Olver finally saw someone come back for him, that tripped me up.

 

Also when Logain realized that there was more to life than power and being feared because people could actually love and respect him and the Ashaman for the right reasons.

[dfchang]

I also remain unconvinced with the philosophical argument behind not destroying the Dark One and just sealing him up again.

 

There are some serious logical flaws in both of Rand's visions, one without Light and one without Dark.

 

I'm not sure that a world WITHOUT the Dark One inherently means everyone is just a "puppet" and the world shown by the Dark One is not completely without some order, rules, structure, etc.

 

Wasn't Eden originally without Evil?  Isn't the Heaven of the Christian ethos ultimately going to be without Satan?   After you choose to believe Jesus Christ and/or God after Revelations and enter Heaven, can you change your mind and go to Hell?  Can you steal, murder, or commit adultery in heaven?   Doesn't "choice" get taken away from you there eventually? 

 

Again, the argument for keeping the Dark One around simply as a balance for the Light so mankind can "choose" between the two is not a particularly convincing one for me personally.   I would have gone for it in the end and taken my chances with a world changed into paradise without evil.   People seemed happy enough in that vision . . . 

 

I THINK the book argues that a person without the capacity for good is not much different than a person without the capacity for evil and that strikes me as a bit simplistic.