Chekhov's gun

[skalors3]

When I first heard about the gun my guess was that Ter'angreal without re -reading the book to determine its location.

[herid]

When I first heard about the gun my guess was that Ter'angreal without re -reading the book to determine its location.

 

which ter'angreal?

[skalors3]

The one that alters luck. Sorry that I don't expand on my thought processes, I just kind of spit them out.

[gregweum]

Mat's luck, specifically where it came from:

 

"The luck had come once he took the dagger from Shadar Logoth."

 

I just reread the chapters in question, and I think I like this idea the best.

 

That being said, in chapter 36 Perrin is taken by Hopper to see Ishy in TAR.  Hopper tells Perrin that it's something that's important for him to see.  Perrin then watches a meeting between Ishy and 3 DFs followed by a meeting between Ishy and Lanfear.  I'm wondering if the 2 DFs that survive the encounter with Ishy might be the gun.  The trip to spy on Ishy is followed by Perrin asking Hopper what is was and why he showed it to Perrin, to which Hopper replies:

 

What you must see.  Be careful, Young Bull.  This place is dangerous.  Be wary as a cub hunting a porcupine.... All is real, what is seen, and what is unseen.

 

I couldn't figure out the identities of the 2 DFs (nor did I try all that hard, other than to check encyclopaedia WOT).  But it seems like it could be possible that the meeting with Lanfear wasn't the most important thing that Perrin was supposed to witness.

[JakeBarnes]

Wasn't that just to show Perrin that dying in the dream world was a true death?

[gregweum]

Wasn't that just to show Perrin that dying in the dream world was a true death?

 

That's what I always thought, too, but in looking for a Chekhov's Gun I paid attention to the scene a little differently.  There's a character (Hopper) specifically pointing out that the scene is important, and we have already seen one of the DFs on screen trying to kill Mat.  We are told the locations of two of the other DFs as well.

 

I think the origin of Mat's luck is the more likely candidate, but I thought this could be viable as well.

[skalors3]

Matt's luck has been played out in a multiple different ways throughout the book. I cannot see it being the gun. If you combine shara (which we haven't seen yet) with the comment from Terez, I believe, about one of Brandon's quotes being misleading, it could easily apply to his statement about the gun being small, which would put Shara and its occupants right back into the mix.

[Balefire to da face!]

 

Mat's luck, specifically where it came from:

 

"The luck had come once he took the dagger from Shadar Logoth."

 

I just reread the chapters in question, and I think I like this idea the best.

 

That being said, in chapter 36 Perrin is taken by Hopper to see Ishy in TAR.  Hopper tells Perrin that it's something that's important for him to see.  Perrin then watches a meeting between Ishy and 3 DFs followed by a meeting between Ishy and Lanfear.  I'm wondering if the 2 DFs that survive the encounter with Ishy might be the gun.  The trip to spy on Ishy is followed by Perrin asking Hopper what is was and why he showed it to Perrin, to which Hopper replies:

 

 

>What you must see.  Be careful, Young Bull.  This place is dangerous.  Be wary as a cub hunting a porcupine.... All is real, what is seen, and what is unseen.

 

 

I couldn't figure out the identities of the 2 DFs (nor did I try all that hard, other than to check encyclopaedia WOT).  But it seems like it could be possible that the meeting with Lanfear wasn't the most important thing that Perrin was supposed to witness.

 

 

Chekhov's gun needs to be more apparent then that, I'd say.

 

 

I think some are looking at overly obscure things when it comes to this. It should be something more obvious. Though, as others said, who knows how far we can really trust a Brandon tease at this point.

[Atheose]

 

 

Mat's luck, specifically where it came from:

 

"The luck had come once he took the dagger from Shadar Logoth."

 

I just reread the chapters in question, and I think I like this idea the best.

 

That being said, in chapter 36 Perrin is taken by Hopper to see Ishy in TAR.  Hopper tells Perrin that it's something that's important for him to see.  Perrin then watches a meeting between Ishy and 3 DFs followed by a meeting between Ishy and Lanfear.  I'm wondering if the 2 DFs that survive the encounter with Ishy might be the gun.  The trip to spy on Ishy is followed by Perrin asking Hopper what is was and why he showed it to Perrin, to which Hopper replies:

 

 

>What you must see.  Be careful, Young Bull.  This place is dangerous.  Be wary as a cub hunting a porcupine.... All is real, what is seen, and what is unseen

.

 

 

I couldn't figure out the identities of the 2 DFs (nor did I try all that hard, other than to check encyclopaedia WOT).  But it seems like it could be possible that the meeting with Lanfear wasn't the most important thing that Perrin was supposed to witness.

 

Chekhov's gun needs to be more apparent then that, I'd say.

 

 

I think some are looking at overly obscure things when it comes to this. It should be something more obvious. Though, as others said, who knows how far we can really trust a Brandon tease at this point.

 

This, Chekhov's gun has to be a pretty obvious thing that people are simply forgetting about and/or overlooking. The only things that seem to fit the bill to me are Shara and Murandy.

[Kelandon]

In this range (TDR 30-40), we are introduced to the following things that I think AREN'T good candidates:

 

* Mat's luck (TDR 30 and TDR 37)

* Gaul (TDR 33-34)

* Faile (TDR 33 and TDR 35)

* Aviendha (TDR 37-38)

* female channelers feeling affinity for each other (TDR 38)

* Bain and Chiad (TDR 38)

* the Aiel rationale for the Aiel War (TDR 38)

* balefire (TDR 39, though it was used before in TDR 9)

* Rhuarc (TDR 39)

* Aludra (TDR 40, though we saw her before in TGH 27)

 

Basically none of these things seem unresolved (a gun not fired) in the way that a Chekhov's Gun has to be; Mat's luck helped in a variety of circumstances, but most obviously at the end of TOM, and most of the rest of these characters have played major roles up to this point. Balefire, too, has been significant all over the place. I'm a little less sure about Avendoraldera and the Aiel War... we know Laman cut down Avendoraldera in order to make a throne, but do we know what happened to the throne? We know that it was a sapling from Avendesora, but Avendesora has played basically no role as yet, and it seems as though it ought to.

 

In this range, we also get the following things that ARE unresolved and likely to play a role in AMOL:

 

* Thom hints that he has feelings for Moiraine (TDR 31). They start to connect at the end of TOM; maybe a wedding in AMOL?

* Lanfear and Callandor (TDR 32) or Lanfear and dreams (TDR 36). Lanfear has always claimed that she's awesome in dreams/T'A'R, but she's done very little in them other than pop up in Rand's dreams once (TOM Epilogue). She also boasts that LTT/Rand will be hers again. We have good reason to believe that Lanfear is going to play a pretty significant role in AMOL.

* Darkhounds (TDR 33, though they were introduced once earlier). Other than an occasional balefire-producing fight, Darkhounds have played basically no role in the story, but several chapters in COT have beaten us over the head with the idea that they're important to the Last Battle.

* "When the Stone of Tear falls, we [Aiel — Gaul speaking] will leave the Three-Fold Land at last. We will be changed, and find again what was ours, and was lost" (TDR 34). Clearly, the Stone has fallen and Aiel have left the Waste. They may or may not have been "changed" as yet (what does this mean exactly?), but what about that "find again what was ours, and was lost" business? Does this just mean remembering who they were in the Age of Legends? Or does "find" mean something more significant, such as finding the Song or a purpose of some sort? We can expect that the Aiel will, one way or another, be resolved in AMOL.

 

Finally, here are some things that COULD play a role in AMOL:

 

* Perrin smells Gray Men (TDR 33) and Moiraine suggests that she can detect Darkfriends if they're really bad (TDR 34).

* The capital of Manetheren in the Mountains of Mist (TDR 35) comes up in this range.

* Perrin gets told to avoid the Red Ajah (TDR 36).

* Egwene Dreams a lot (TDR 37), but most of this has already been fulfilled.

* Kari al'Thor comes up repeatedly (TDR 32 and TDR 39), as does Rand's parentage generally.

 

In short, I think the major candidates really boil down to:

* Thom marries Moiraine. (I honestly think this is it.)

* Avendesora and maybe something about finding the Song or resolving the Aiel's conflicts over their ancestry and future.

* Lanfear seduces Rand or becomes good because of her love for Rand or infiltrates his dreams even though they are warded.

* Darkhounds do... something.

[Balefire to da face!]

I am hardly an expert on the discussion, but that seems a great break down on the situation.

 

I think the last four are good candidates. I would hope it's not Thom and Moi since we have already gotten quite a bit out of their relationship. Especially since they did the WoT universe equivalent of all but making out like teenagers at the end of ToM already anyway. But again, gotta be careful not to overestimate just how big this whole thing is anyway.

 

To me it seems like the obvious answer is Darkhounds. Not only does the DH arc(if you want to call it that) follow the CG definition perfectly, we also have every reason to believe that Perrin/wolves are going to have a showdown with Slayer(maybe)/Darkhounds in aMoL.

[Atheose]

In this range (TDR 30-40), we are introduced to the following things that I think AREN'T good candidates:

 

* Mat's luck (TDR 30 and TDR 37)

* Gaul (TDR 33-34)

* Faile (TDR 33 and TDR 35)

* Aviendha (TDR 37-38)

* female channelers feeling affinity for each other (TDR 38)

* Bain and Chiad (TDR 38)

* the Aiel rationale for the Aiel War (TDR 38)

* balefire (TDR 39, though it was used before in TDR 9)

* Rhuarc (TDR 39)

* Aludra (TDR 40, though we saw her before in TGH 27)

 

Basically none of these things seem unresolved (a gun not fired) in the way that a Chekhov's Gun has to be; Mat's luck helped in a variety of circumstances, but most obviously at the end of TOM, and most of the rest of these characters have played major roles up to this point. Balefire, too, has been significant all over the place. I'm a little less sure about Avendoraldera and the Aiel War... we know Laman cut down Avendoraldera in order to make a throne, but do we know what happened to the throne? We know that it was a sapling from Avendesora, but Avendesora has played basically no role as yet, and it seems as though it ought to.

 

In this range, we also get the following things that ARE unresolved and likely to play a role in AMOL:

 

* Thom hints that he has feelings for Moiraine (TDR 31). They start to connect at the end of TOM; maybe a wedding in AMOL?

* Lanfear and Callandor (TDR 32) or Lanfear and dreams (TDR 36). Lanfear has always claimed that she's awesome in dreams/T'A'R, but she's done very little in them other than pop up in Rand's dreams once (TOM Epilogue). She also boasts that LTT/Rand will be hers again. We have good reason to believe that Lanfear is going to play a pretty significant role in AMOL.

* Darkhounds (TDR 33, though they were introduced once earlier). Other than an occasional balefire-producing fight, Darkhounds have played basically no role in the story, but several chapters in COT have beaten us over the head with the idea that they're important to the Last Battle.

* "When the Stone of Tear falls, we [Aiel — Gaul speaking] will leave the Three-Fold Land at last. We will be changed, and find again what was ours, and was lost" (TDR 34). Clearly, the Stone has fallen and Aiel have left the Waste. They may or may not have been "changed" as yet (what does this mean exactly?), but what about that "find again what was ours, and was lost" business? Does this just mean remembering who they were in the Age of Legends? Or does "find" mean something more significant, such as finding the Song or a purpose of some sort? We can expect that the Aiel will, one way or another, be resolved in AMOL.

 

Finally, here are some things that COULD play a role in AMOL:

 

* Perrin smells Gray Men (TDR 33) and Moiraine suggests that she can detect Darkfriends if they're really bad (TDR 34).

* The capital of Manetheren in the Mountains of Mist (TDR 35) comes up in this range.

* Perrin gets told to avoid the Red Ajah (TDR 36).

* Egwene Dreams a lot (TDR 37), but most of this has already been fulfilled.

* Kari al'Thor comes up repeatedly (TDR 32 and TDR 39), as does Rand's parentage generally.

 

In short, I think the major candidates really boil down to:

* Thom marries Moiraine. (I honestly think this is it.)

* Avendesora and maybe something about finding the Song or resolving the Aiel's conflicts over their ancestry and future.

* Lanfear seduces Rand or becomes good because of her love for Rand or infiltrates his dreams even though they are warded.

* Darkhounds do... something.

Wait, do we know that Chekhov's Gun comes from TDR 30-40?

 

EDIT: just looked up the original quote from Sanderson. I didn't know it was from that time!

 

My guess: Perrin has the dream about Rand being consumed by a circle of Myrdraal (CH 35), which would probably mean a 13x13. To be honest, now knowing that it's from that chapter makes it seem pretty obvious IMO.

[Atheose]

I don't know, my brain keeps spinning now. Mat's luck begins in those chapters, and it's called "The Dark One's own luck". Maybe he's been getting good luck all his life in return for bad luck when it truly matters, The Last Battle?

[Kelandon]

My guess: Perrin has the dream about Rand being consumed by a circle of Myrdraal (CH 35), which would probably mean a 13x13. To be honest, now knowing that it's from that chapter makes it seem pretty obvious IMO.

This is deeply unlikely. This doesn't seem like a prophetic dream. He's in T'A'R: he sees Hopper and gets blasted by Rand such that he has real wounds afterwards. When he sees future things in T'A'R, they appear in the sky or seem ethereal somehow. This is much more like Rand getting attacked in his dreams, as Rand discusses at the end of TDR 32. It's not altogether clear to me why Rand is in T'A'R (he Travels there, but he doesn't normally Dream his way there that we know of), but it looks as though he is actually there when Perrin sees him. He's not just a vision. In that case, there is no reason to believe that this foreshadows anything in the future.

 

We also don't know that it's from Chapter 35 as far as I can tell, just that it's from that general range of chapters, and as noted above, that's quite a lot of stuff.

 

Just to repeat something that I said above: the whole point of Chekhov's Gun is to shoot it once and resolve the thing. Thus, Mat's luck makes no sense at all; that's already been shot (most notably in the trip through the Tower of Ghenjei in TOM). You don't shoot Chekhov's Gun twice. That's not Chekhov's Gun anymore, but something else.

[msbee]

BS has confirmed that Rand has a habit of appearing in TAR whilst being in 'real life'. IIRC, we don't know whether this is constant, occasional or under specific circumstances. We do know this is something specific to Rand.

It would make a great Chekhov's Gun, except that he goes and does it again at VoG (when Perrin and the wolves join him on top of Dragonmount).

[Kelandon]

BS has confirmed that Rand has a habit of appearing in TAR whilst being in 'real life'. IIRC, we don't know whether this is constant, occasional or under specific circumstances. We do know this is something specific to Rand.

It would make a great Chekhov's Gun, except that he goes and does it again at VoG (when Perrin and the wolves join him on top of Dragonmount).

Aha. That makes a lot of sense.

[djstipe]

A piece of advice. Write your theory on notepad, wordpad, Mircosoft Word or whatever offline program you have at your disposal. Save your theory, then copy the text & paste it here on this board. It'll limit the time you'll have to spend online & even if your browser fails, all you have to do is try to paste it again.

 

My suggestion is to download Evernote and work on drafts there.  There's no "saving" on the desktop app, it's just there, and all you have to do is Sync to make sure your content gets backed up to the cloud (VERY reliable servers).  It's free and no need to upgrade if you just want to store text, plenty of storage, though at $50 a year the additional attachment functionality and increased upload capacity is far and away worth it (plus if you go premium, you get automatic versioning for your notes).

 

It's apparently available on Kindle via an Android App, or their website for non Fire kindle (though you will probably have the same issues as DM on the website).

http://www.squidoo.com/evernote-on-kindle

 

I don't work for Evernote, but I do have an Evernote sticker in my window, and an Evernote T-Shirt that is so ragged I need to replace it.  I'm also about to renew my membership for a third year, and glad to do so (so many times I've written something, made changes, then decided I wanted to go back to what I did before).

[gregweum]

I think too many people are confusing foreshadowing with CG.

 

The best candidate in my mind remains the connection between Mat's luck and the dagger.  Incidentally, I love how people in the books call Mat's luck "The Dark One's Own Luck" when it seems like his luck may actually come from his link Mordeth....