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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Wheel of Time channeling system


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We continue our discussion of the WoT magic systems, its strengths and many, many weaknesses.

 

Spirit because the weave have a purely spiritual metaphysical component and fire at least for the men because it burn a hole between two points in place.
Aha, now I've caught you thinking of post-factum explanations to make the elements fit the weave. There's nothing spiritual about a gateway. It's certainly supernatural, but so is everything else a channeller does. A gateway is a  dimensional window from place A to place B, a purely utilitarian phenomenon without any spiritual significance. And male channellers do not "burn" a hole in the Pattern, Rand says "bore" or "punch" a hole. Earth could have been used just as easily as Fire.
What is sound? No I am not asking you from a modern perspective but from the perspective of early renaissance level society, air is logical, sound travel on the air, but in a society who have no idea of the various forms of forces and physics but who see the world according to the classical elements fire would be a part of sound, as for water I assume it would be the connection to the human body of the speaker.
So now the mechanics of how the weaves work depend on the channellers understanding of physics? I will remind you that the WoT universe is set in the same universe as our world at a later/earlier era, sound in Randland works exactly as it does in real life, and fire has nothing to do with it. By your logic, the weave for eavesdropping shouldn't work at all, because the Aes Sedai have the wrong understanding of how sound travels. There are settings where the mage's understanding of how the world works physically changes the rules of that world, like Mage the Ascension or Planescape. WoT is not one of these settings. And the connection to the human body of the speaker has even less to do with this weave, it's the sounds the speaker emits that the weave intercepts, connecting to the speaker's body is unnecessary. Sorry, no, this explanation is flat-out illogical. Why? Because eavesdropping has nothing to do with Fire and Water. At. All.
Allot of the fire spells so to speak have earth in them, that represent the process of the fire, the fuel for the magickal flame, the chemical processes that fire is to a society that do not understand chemistry.
You're making the same error again. What primitive societies do or do not believe does not affect the rules of physics of that world. Earth isn't needed for arrows made purely of fire, Fire made of the One Power fuels itself.
Air is very logical it makes the air hard, fire well we have seen fire be used as a way to represent strength so that may be the reason, remember there is not only one way to do things, allot depend on the channeler him or herself and how they figure out how to do it, and there is nothing illogical with having fire included in such a weave.
Choosing Fire over Earth to represent strength/solidity is illogical.
Ah so drawing on mythology is not a very intelligent approach? What then would you in your wast intellect suggest a author use. Now I think it is cool to see magick systems that bases itself on nothing in real world mythology and which is only a construct of the author's mind, that often creates very unique systems, however basing such systems on existing concepts and mythology give them a grater feeling of connection to reality, it makes them recognizable and is in fact a very good way to construct a fictional magick system, especially when the ground idea for the system is a pure energy model one.
Drawing on mythology is inevitable. It's not intelligent that RJ never works out his own rules for how the elements in channeling work, and instead draws on whatever random snippet appeals to him at any given moment. This makes his setting messy and incoherent. He does this a lot, and not just in channeling.
Ehem...no I am not actually.
Yes, you do. I've quoted your post where you said that Water stands for one part of the body (blood) in super-healing, and that Water stands for the entire body in regular healing.

 

Again you completely do not get it, no normal healing do not affect the mind, nor the soul but the mind and the soul affect the body so elements representing them have to be included in the weave, remember if a weave even slightly touches the domain of a given element that element must be included for the weave to function properly.
The mind and soul do not affect the body in the sense of physical wounds on the body. You can't get a torn wound from thinking too hard or feeling sad, it's a purely corporeal ailment, which means that neither the mind nor the soul need to be touched by the weave. Otherwise we might as well say that any given person affects the world they live in, and that the Healing weave needs to touch the entire universe for it to work. Everything is connected, but a line has to be drawn somewhere, and a weave that in no way affects the mind or soul has no reason to touch them.
Really, have you considered getting glasses? Whatever or not they are good representations of weaves is one thing, but if all you see is shapeless masses then I do think there might be something wrong with your vision for there are lines and hoops and patterns.
I'm already wearing glasses. This is what weaves look like in the comic:
 

180px-Weave.jpg

 

As far as I can see, it's just a several irregular curves sprouting from a glowing light, without any particular shape.

 

Off course not, he had to learn to use the tool to produce the music and you point being?
My point is that characters don't need to learn to use their Talents in WoT. They just use them, full stop. There is nothing connecting a Talent to its owner's personality or actions, it's all completely passive and utilitarian, and accepted without further question or speculation. Nobody ever stops to ask themselves, how is it they are receiving visions of the future, they simply say "the Pattern wills it", as if it explains anything. This is a very shallow way of creating a magical system, on the level of Pierce Anthony's Xanth series.
Yes like most characters with ESP or oracular abilities in most of science fiction, fantasy and horror, and also how many have believed it to work in the real world, again what is the problem?
Absolutely not, most characters with prophetic abilities in the books/films/games that I've read/watched/played need to devote their lives to training and maintaining these abilities.
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Off course not, he had to learn to use the tool to produce the music and you point being?
My point is that characters don't need to learn to use their Talents in WoT. They just use them, full stop. There is nothing connecting a Talent to its owner's personality or actions, it's all completely passive and utilitarian, and accepted without further question or speculation. Nobody ever stops to ask themselves, how is it they are receiving visions of the future, they simply say "the Pattern wills it", as if it explains anything. This is a very shallow way of creating a magical system, on the level of Pierce Anthony's Xanth series.

 

 Nyn's personality matches her Talents.

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I am sorry for not having had the time to get back to you on this before, I am always very busy before Christmas.

 

Aha, now I've caught you thinking of post-factum explanations to make the elements fit the weave. There's nothing spiritual about a gateway.

 

Burning a hole through reality itself, that sounds rather spiritual to me.

 

It's certainly supernatural, but so is everything else a channeller does.

 

Off course everything they do is supernatural, but you have some things that is associated with the four physical elements and then everything that is not physical in nature would be spirit. In most element systems, including Wheel of Time's system spirit represents that which is not of our world.

 

A gateway is a  dimensional window from place A to place B, a purely utilitarian phenomenon without any spiritual significance. And male channellers do not "burn" a hole in the Pattern, Rand says "bore" or "punch" a hole. Earth could have been used just as easily as Fire.

 

Fire usually represent vitality, destruction it is logical for it to be used to make a hole in reality. Also you seam to be stuck on an ideal of spiritual as in religious, but in most five element systems based on the Western model spiritual do not mean religious, it means not of the other four physical elements.

 

So now the mechanics of how the weaves work depend on the channellers understanding of physics?

 

I have never said that.

 

I will remind you that the WoT universe is set in the same universe as our world at a later/earlier era, sound in Randland works exactly as it does in real life, and fire has nothing to do with it. By your logic, the weave for eavesdropping shouldn't work at all, because the Aes Sedai have the wrong understanding of how sound travels.

 

This is like saying Charmed should confirm to current scientific theory because it is technically represented as existing in "our world." No Wheel of Time is not our world, it is a fictional future for a fictional representation our our world where manipulation of reality though basically Chi can produce a fireball big enough to destroy a whole city, obviously physics in Randland do not work quite as they do in our world o at least not as scientists in our world think they do. In WoT the theory of the four elements are truth it is how reality works. Now listen I believe there is allot of things science have not discovered, I am into New Age and think there is allot more between heaven and Earth than what we know, but to go from that to claim that every fiction setting that is based on our world, especially one with magick in it, have to confirm to what we know today about physics are ludicrous. In Wheel of Time the base elements are reality, it do not matter that science in our real world say they are not.

 

There are settings where the mage's understanding of how the world works physically changes the rules of that world, like Mage the Ascension or Planescape. WoT is not one of these settings.

 

I have never claimed so, I have said that the world in Wheel of Time works differently than what science today think it do.

 

And the connection to the human body of the speaker has even less to do with this weave, it's the sounds the speaker emits that the weave intercepts, connecting to the speaker's body is unnecessary.

 

I disagree, sound is made by the human body so the connection to it is clearly there.

 

Sorry, no, this explanation is flat-out illogical. Why? Because eavesdropping has nothing to do with Fire and Water. At. All.

 

That you are incapable of understanding an explanation do not make it illogical my dear.

 

You're making the same error again. What primitive societies do or do not believe does not affect the rules of physics of that world. Earth isn't needed for arrows made purely of fire, Fire made of the One Power fuels itself.

 

Ah yes for physics in WoT works exactly like we know them today, for most scientists believe that you can take in energy and make stone dance with it, it is a well known fact. If WoT physics are real where you live then I want to come and stay with you, it would make my little occultist heart very happy. Obviously either the series is bases on science being wrong in some way, and I am not saying that science in our world can not be wrong, it probably is, but in that case saying oh no it can not work like that for science in our real world say so do not fly when we are discussing a fictional magick system in a fictional world set into a fictional future where fictional science have made allot of fictional discoveries to explain how the magick works.

 

Choosing Fire over Earth to represent strength/solidity is illogical.

 

No it is not according to most systems of elemental philosophy. Fire represents strength and vitality in most of them, and WoT is based on these systems.

 

Drawing on mythology is inevitable. It's not intelligent that RJ never works out his own rules for how the elements in channeling work, and instead draws on whatever random snippet appeals to him at any given moment. This makes his setting messy and incoherent. He does this a lot, and not just in channeling.

 

Wrong again, Jordan takes allot of ideas from various form of mythology and weaves it together into a coherent whole. He have worked out the elements and is consistent with how they are used, perhaps if you where not so busy trying to find some imagined flaws with everything in the books and sat down and actually read them you would see that.

 

Yes, you do. I've quoted your post where you said that Water stands for one part of the body (blood) in super-healing, and that Water stands for the entire body in regular healing.

 

You are very good at misunderstanding what others write, try to actually read what I am writing to you, it might work better.

 

The mind and soul do not affect the body in the sense of physical wounds on the body.

 

Actually yes it do, do the mind create a wound no, but the mind can definitely affect the state of the body and the sound affect the state of the mind.

 

You can't get a torn wound from thinking too hard or feeling sad, it's a purely corporeal ailment, which means that neither the mind nor the soul need to be touched by the weave.

 

The way you think can not manifest a wound no, but it do affect the body. Take severed channelers they give up wanting to live and they die, that is the mind affecting the body right there, many of the damane who where taken got sick as they mourned their freedom, it is clearly that in WoT, just like in our real world our state of mind affect the health of our bodies.

 

Otherwise we might as well say that any given person affects the world they live in, and that the Healing weave needs to touch the entire universe for it to work. Everything is connected, but a line has to be drawn somewhere, and a weave that in no way affects the mind or soul has no reason to touch them.

 

Mind, body and soul are three aspects of the same and are not separate things.

 

I'm already wearing glasses. This is what weaves look like in the comic:

 

Fist of all you have chosen a picture that show a nearly completed weave with just little hints of the weaving viable so you have chosen a picture to fit your point, not one that is representative for how weaves is drawn in the comics which is usually rather intricate and quite beautiful. Secondly this one to have beautiful detailing if you actually bother to have a look and it do make allot of sense.

 

My point is that characters don't need to learn to use their Talents in WoT. They just use them, full stop. There is nothing connecting a Talent to its owner's personality or actions, it's all completely passive and utilitarian, and accepted without further question or speculation.

 

That is like saying such and such movie is bad for someone's eye color do not match their personality. Off course it is not questioned as it is a completely natural thing in the WoT universe. Also like others have pointed out Nyn's talents definitely fit her personality, however I ask you again, how is this in any way proof that the channeling system is not well thought out?

 

Nobody ever stops to ask themselves, how is it they are receiving visions of the future, they simply say "the Pattern wills it", as if it explains anything. This is a very shallow way of creating a magical system, on the level of Pierce Anthony's Xanth series.

 

It have nothing to do with the magick system, it have to do with the character's perception of the world around them. I take it as a given that electricity work, I am not an expert on how a TV work, I know the basics but generally I just accept it. A person time traveling here from 200 years ago might then ask, but why do you just accept that it is this electricity that make it work, why do you not ask where the images comes from? In WoT everyone know that you have a thing called the Wheel which control destiny and that destiny is immutable, they know this as well as I know that electricity make the lamp by my bookshelf give off light, why would they question it, they know it is fact. This have nothing to do with the magick system and is rather a browned eyed people suck because yellow cheese bounce of black cats kind of argument.

 

Absolutely not, most characters with prophetic abilities in the books/films/games that I've read/watched/played need to devote their lives to training and maintaining these abilities.

 

Then you have missed out on a whole bunch of great games, movies and books for in quite a few of them, if not most, prescient ability is a sudden gift, some can later advance it, in others they can not, but the gift itself is sudden, and also again why do it matter if such an ability is learned or not, it say nothing about whatever or not a setting's magick system is well developed or no. In Harry Potter they have to spend years learning how to use their magick, but the system is rather point and poof, not that I have anything against Harry Potter, it is one of my favorite series but the magick system is not that much developed beyond a few limitations to make sure the characters do not end up all over the place. Whatever or not a supernatural gift is spontaneous, learned or anything in between do not say anything about how well developed a given magick system is.

 

Now I doubt continuing this will be must point in. You have made up your mind and are grasping for straws to say that the WoT magick system is bad since you for some reason hate the series but still spend allot of time discussing it on a forum. Anyway I have said my piece, I promised you a reply and you have had it, I doubt we will reach and agreement on this and I have other threads I want to contribute to so we will just have to agree to disagree. In my mind the WoT channeling system is the second best fictional magick system I have ever seen, and I do think the majority here agree with me on it's quality.

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