Rand, Egwene, Nynaeve, Callandor, Dark Prophecies and Toman Head

[Guest jsq24]

Not sure if anyone has ever asked this on here, but I was recently re-reading The Great Hunt and was wondering why exactly the Shadow, via Liandrin, wanted to lure Egwene and Nynaeve to Toman Head. I had always thought it was a trap for Rand, but Rand only finds out that Egwene is a damane by accident when he sees her out a window at High Lord Turak's palace. So my question is this: why bring them to the center of the action in the first place (aside from giving the characters something to do for the book)?

 

When Liandrin is orchestrating the handover to High Lady Suroth, this exchange occurs (The Great Hunt, Chapter 40: Damane):

 

"You must find the woman Nynaeve," Liandrin said sharply. "Elayne is of no importance, but both the woman and this girl here must be taken with you on your ships when you sail."

"I know very well what has been commanded,

marath'damane,

though I would give much to know why."

""However much you were told, child," Liandrin sneered, "that is how much you are allowed to know. Remember that you serve and obey.

These two must be removed to the other side of the Aryth Ocean and kept there.

"

 

- Emphasis added.

 

So Egwene becomes damane, Nynaeve rescues her, Elayne yells "Good for you!" at a former damane who punches her sul'dam in the face. A good time is had by all, Egwene learns some killer weaves, etc. But no one ever really dwells on the machinations for such a hilariously convoluted plot. As I said before, I originally thought this was to dig at Rand, but Egwene's captivity only seems to motivate him to defeat Ishamael more. Here's that exchange (Chapter 47: The Grave is No Bar to my Call):

 

"They will not save you," Ba'alzamon said. "Those who might save you will be carried far across the Aryth Ocean. If ever you see them again, they will be collared slaves, and they will destroy you for their new masters."

Egwene. I can't let them do that to her.

 

Here, Ishamael refers to Nynaeve and Egwene specifically as "those who might save" Rand. It is not their power (Elayne was passed off, despite being equal to Egwene in strength), but some significance they have toward Rand that made Ishamael want to have them taken out of the equation (why not killed? Because he's CRAZY!)

 

So here I'd like to throw my hat in the ring for Nynaeve and Egwene being the two Rand must link with while using Callandor to win the last battle. In a book that both introduced and is rife with Dark Prophecies, of which Ishamael alone has full knowledge, it stands to reason that Egwene and Nynaeve are singled out in one as holding a special place in the Last Battle.

 

Feel free to tear to shreds. It was just something that bothered me and doesn't seem to have ever been fully resolved.

 

I'll close with a nice quote from our good friend Verin (Chapter 41: Disagreements).

 

"The Father of Lies never lays simple plans."

[Maleshub]

Saving Rand doesn't have to be necessarily through the Callandor link. Egwene as Amyrlin Seat has a role to play to Tarmon Gai'don. Rand comments on it during his visit to the WT:

 

"Egwene," Rand said, voice echoing in the chamber. He nodded to her, as if in respect. "You have done your part, I see. The Amyrlin's stole fits you well."

 

He needs her help to reseal the Bore and/or deal with the consequences of his rendezvous at Shayol Ghul.

 

As to Nynaeve, she saved the asha'man from the taint in "With the Choedan Kal," removed the taint effects from asha'man minds, and will link with Rand in Shayol Ghul.

 

Both are central to Rand's success in TG; and that isn't exclusive to the Callandor link.

[herid]

This should probably be on the AMOL spoiler board.

 

aMoL cover shows Nynaeve, Moiraine and Rand going to the Pit of Doom so it's pretty clear that they will be the ones to link with Rand.

I also agree with Theodril, there are other important roles in the Last Battle other than linking with Rand. In particular, there are good reasons to believe that once Rand dies Nynaeve will be instrumental in his resurrection so Ishy might mean that for example. Egwene might play a role in that too as the first Dark prophecy implies that Lanfear will hold Rand prisoner in TAR once he dies and there will be some kind of rescue mission to free him. Egwene is one of the two main TAR players for the Light (Perrin is the other) so she could very well be involved there.

[Ozzie_aiel]

If they were such a danger why not simply kill them? Do Egwene and Nynaeve feature prominantly in the Shadows prophesies, or was Ishy just having a comic supervillain moment?

[Durinax]

I don't really get how they where a threat in book 2 but then they kind of stop being on the list of active schemes for the BA

[Ozzie_aiel]

I don't really get how they where a threat in book 2 but then they kind of stop being on the list of active schemes for the BA

 

I am shocked neither Liandrin or Suroth were harshly punished (aka horriblypo killed) when Egwene and Nynaeve got away, especially concidering Ishy was badly hurt and likely really angry.

[Wool-headed lummox]

The whole sequence was bizarre and out of place. If the Shadow wanted to get rid of these two girls, they could have just had one of the Black Ajah stop their heart with a thought. Or have them Turned to the Shadow. Or enslaved with the Seanchan collars. Why would Ishamael possibly want them to be damaned on the other side of the Aryth ocean? Yet another example of RJ pulling things out of his blood and ashes.

[Suttree]

The whole sequence was bizarre and out of place. If the Shadow wanted to get rid of these two girls, they could have just had one of the Black Ajah stop their heart with a thought. Or have them Turned to the Shadow. Or enslaved with the Seanchan collars. Why would Ishamael possibly want them to be damaned on the other side of the Aryth ocean? Yet another example of RJ pulling things out of his blood and ashes.

 

Ill give you one thing Lummox. You certainly are consistent mate...

[Wool-headed lummox]

Would you have sent Nynaeve and Egwene across the Aryth ocean to the Seanchan continent, having so much better options at handling them, Suttree? Assassinating, enslaving, torturing for information, holding hostage, breaking their spirit, making an example out of them - which of these could Ishamael not have done using more reliable and *faster* resources than the idiot Liandrin and Suroth, who would have dumped these two on random suldam and waited for months! before sending them back to Seanchan? The whole sequence has no logical explanation, because it was tacked on.

[Suttree]

Would you have sent Nynaeve and Egwene across the Aryth ocean to the Seanchan continent, having so much better options at handling them, Suttree?

It was a joke mate, you know I agree with your takes some of the time. Most certainly not here however. You are taking a very surface level view of the situation.

 

As for the topic I have seen this commented on somewhere. Will look for the quote.

[Sid]

Ishy/Moridin obviously has access to prophecies that others (including us) don't have. He may only be able to ascertain that the untrained women with Rand at the Eye were his friends and allies that could help him somehow. He likely had no idea that one would become the Amyrlin Seat and rid the Tower of Darkfriends, while the other participated in the Cleansing of Saidin. This plan of his probably has more to do with breaking any chance Rand has of reconciling with the Seanchan later on. Having them killed or those other options would have directed his vengeance against the shadow rather than a huge non-shadow force. Seeing two women he grew up knowing chained and broken in slavery at their hands likely would have made him make different decisions at key points, such as his meeting with Tuon, standing outside Ebou Dar late in TGS, and very likely a few critical points coming up in AMoL. As poorly as the meeting with Tuon went, it likely would have exploded into irrevocable conflict between the two factions with Eg, Nyn, or both leashed by the Seanchan.

[Darksmoon]

We discussed this in the link below:

 

 

www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/72791-importance-of-nynaeve-and-egwene/

[Ozzie_aiel]

I'm sure if the shadow killed the girls they wouldn't leave the corpses to be found. Or turn them to the shadow. Remember at this point none of them knew you could forcibly be turned to the shadow (Ishy had hinted it could be done but Rand put it down to another lie). It would've been easy to turn Rand if the girl he loved (Egwene at this point) seduced him over.

[Maleshub]

The failures of the Shadow are many; and so are the achievements. First failure is Narg!

 

And if the Pattern decided that ta'veren Rand needed Egwene and Nynaeve; then it would work to ensure they survived.

[TNine]

I don't think it is possible to straight-up kill most of the major players at this point. While they aren't ta'veren, the Pattern does protect them, to an extent. We see an assassination fail by pure luck in TDR, its likely that something similar would have happened if the Shadow had tried to kill Egwene/Nynaeve and turn them to the shadow. The Dark One's touch is still to weak to forcibly change the Pattern.

 

However, giving them over to the Seachan would allow them to stay in the Pattern, and it wouldn't kill them, but it would break their spirits. More than that, it would make any later alliance with the Seachan almost impossible--it's unlikely that Rand, Mat, or Perrin would even think about it if the Seachan had broken Egwene or Nynaeve.

 

I think that the Shadow was trying to hurt Egwene/Nynaeve in a way that would not incite the Pattern into saving them. Much like how the Forsaken don't outright try to kill Rand, since he's ta'veren, but instead try to break his spirit.

[Ozzie_aiel]

So why not turn them to the shadow? If the pattern won't protect them from becoming damane, it won't stop a dark circle being used on them.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Ishy/Moridin obviously has access to prophecies that others (including us) don't have. He may only be able to ascertain that the untrained women with Rand at the Eye were his friends and allies that could help him somehow. He likely had no idea that one would become the Amyrlin Seat and rid the Tower of Darkfriends, while the other participated in the Cleansing of Saidin. This plan of his probably has more to do with breaking any chance Rand has of reconciling with the Seanchan later on. Having them killed or those other options would have directed his vengeance against the shadow rather than a huge non-shadow force. Seeing two women he grew up knowing chained and broken in slavery at their hands likely would have made him make different decisions at key points, such as his meeting with Tuon, standing outside Ebou Dar late in TGS, and very likely a few critical points coming up in AMoL. As poorly as the meeting with Tuon went, it likely would have exploded into irrevocable conflict between the two factions with Eg, Nyn, or both leashed by the Seanchan.

 

 

I think this hits it on the head perfectly. It was a HUGE gamble for Ishy to take (well, in reality, it wasn't THAT big of a deal, since Rand's arrival WITH the Horn of Valere wasn't exactly the most obvious scenario. Fain had a big part to play in that, and he was working alone at that point) but if they managed to pull it off, it would have been 100% game over. Egwene would never have become Amyrlin, the Tower potentially still split, or  in the hands of a woman that would probably turn Rand against Aes Sedai forever. Nynaeve wouldn't have been able to Heal Logain, which would leave Taim the sole leader of the Black Tower (alright, that's a bit of a guess, but still, Logain needs his glory) No helping out Rand and being the only Aes Sedai he trusts. 

 

Might not have even made it out of his "Dark Rand" mood without Nynaeve sticking by him and Egwene to keep the Aes Sedai off his back for the time being. 

 

The biggest would be no alliance with the Seanchan. Even now, the LB in a huge way hinges on at least a compromise and ceasefire with the Seanchan. Divided, there is no way the Light could stand up to the Shadow. Rand might be able to seal the Bore, but there wouldn't be many people left to recover. With Egwene and Nynaeve as Damane, there would be no such alliance. 

 

There is also their respective roles in aMoL that have yet to be played, I would think they would provide some crucial support. 

 

In any case, them as Damane would have sealed the worlds Doom. Killed by the Shadow would be less effective. Rand could have been really pissed, but it could have spurred him on to unite the world against the Shadow. Blame the Seanchan? The Shadow comes up with hands clean and pits 2 continents at war with each other almost certainly. 

 

In any case, when that failed, they did try to kill the wondergirls various times. The most obvious one was right after the incident in the WT with the Gray Man, and the Trap of Tear in tDR. 

 

When Ishamael died, the "prophecy" if that's what it was, was lost. Not even all of the Forsaken know about it, so they wouldn't know. When Moridin arrives, he has lost some of his memories, according to himself in PoD and his whole demeanour seems to have changed. He may not even remember what's going down. Or not care enough to have them killed. 

[Ozzie_aiel]

But were the attempts on thier lives ordered by Ishy or one of the other forsaken? At this point Ishy (and Lanfear) were still trying to get Rand to join the dark side. It couldn't be to keep the BA a secret, Liandrin and Co had left already and many suspected they were Blacks by that point. And the girls would be useless as bait in Tear if they were corpses in Tar Valon.

[Barid Bel Medar]

The Gray man was likely Ishamael. The Tear plot was Be'lal and Mesaana. 

 

Be'lal and Mesaana didn't know of the importance of the girls in that prophecy. Only Ishamael knew of it. 

 

They used the girls as bait because they knew they were close to Rand, that's all. 

 

Ishamael likely tried to have them killed via the Gray Man and other various attempts that have been made on their lives. 

[muddasssir]

In fact, in tGH there were attempts on the entire fellowship as I liked to call it at that time. One prophecy that was one of the first that we came across or rather the Min's viewing that is yet to be fulfilled in tEotW was that all of you have to be there. for him to succede. Right after Nyny comes to the inn tracking boys and eggy. Min tells I don't remember whether it was Moir or Rand that all of them have to be there or Rand will fail. Many people seemed to thing it had to do with SL scene and his first introduction to mordeth, but Rand did not do anything worthwhile there except running as hard as he could. I think that viewing is still to be fulfilled. Moir may have told Siuan and BA would have got a hint about it. That was why they wanted to remove all of the people from the board. There was an attempt on Moir with Draghkar. Thom was seemingly dead at the hand of Myrdraal. They wanted Nyny and eggy removed across Aryth ocean and they were actively hunting Three boys. They wanted to eliminate the entire fellowship. 

[Luckers]

We know Ishamael thought he'd sealed a doom in orchestrating the creation of the Seanchan Empire. Perhaps it pertains to dreams he had about Egwene and Nynaeve and their roles in the future.

[Ozzie_aiel]

It was a Super-villain moment. I'm surprised he didn't rant and tell everyone his master plan

[TNine]

Why do we assume that Ishy failed?  What if it was also a Xantos Gambit?  That plan could still be a win for the Dark One.

 

Egwene got out, but not before being imbued with an incredibly strong and deep hatred for the Seachan, and Elayne and Nynaeve not much better.  Right now, Egwene and Elayne control a good portion of the forces of the Light, but they still need the Seachan.  Egwene could still easily refuse any form of alliance, even with Mat there to smooth things over.  Or she could simply take too long to be convinced of its necessity.  That would be a major score for the Shadow.  What if that was (part) of Ishamel's plan all along?  Simply to pit the two greatest forces of the Light against each other.

[Ozzie_aiel]

Except Egwene had a true dream that a seanchan will save her life, and Nynaeve and Elayne view of the seanchan has changed since Egeanin. If Ishy couls plan that far ahead that he can predict the outcome during a chaotic 3-way battle, then I see no reason he couldn't see the possibility of this happening, given

[Ozzie_aiel]

Except Egwene had a true dream that a seanchan will save her life, and Nynaeve and Elayne view of the seanchan has changed since Egeanin. If Ishy couls plan that far ahead that he can predict the outcome during a chaotic 3-way battle, then I see no reason he couldn't see the possibility of this happening, given that Egwene already showed promise as a dreamer.

 

Besides which, getting yourself stabbed and almost killed simply to plant hatred in 3 girls seems a bit foolish