Is Rand still holding Sadin (some spolier stuff from chapter 1)

[he who comes with a bong]

So right before we seen Rand on Dragonmount, he grabs on to the power in Ebu Dar and gets violently sick. This is the last time that we see Rand grab on to Sadin. Now i have been wondering ever since i first read this part when it first came out, is Rand still holding on to the power. We havent seen a POV from him at all other than the brief glance in the prologue for the last book.

 

i belive this is why he has become so powerfull over the course of the last book. He is still holding onto Sadin. We have him and Perrin sitting around and he 'tells Perrin that " he has the insanity in his grip" i think LTT 's voice was always more calmer and more coherent when Rand was holding the power. I think this is how he is holding it at bay. By always holding onto saidin.Also it may explain the bright light on his brain.

 

This also may explain how Avi's kids are always holding the power and how it is second nature to them. I think this came about when Avi and Rand next Knock boots so to say. Either both of them were holding the power or just Rand is and some how that effects the eventual birth of the quads that she has.

 

So if this is so i wonder whats going to happen when he finally lets go of the power if he is in fact still holding on to it?

 

what do you all think?

 

Editied to add: And we really wont know until we get some type of point of POV where we see him fight again with the power.

[_CLOUD]

Never thought about it that way. It does sound very logical however. It would be interesting to see if he would go mad again if he loses his hold on Saidin, but I doubt anyone or anything is strong enough to shield him now.

[he who comes with a bong]

Thats what i am thinking. If he is still holding it will he go batshit crazy once he lets go. It would also in a way explain ho whe is able to just spot DF's by lookin at them. And his badass way of channeling now.

[lolguy26]

but when he kills those trollocs doesnt he let go of the power?

 

(and unless rand found a way around this, isnt it possible that you burn yourself out or die if you channel to often?)

[he who comes with a bong]

We havent seen him grab onto it since right before veins of gold. If i recall correctly. And another thing do you think that it is possible to draw the power of the Choden kal when he made it impolde on its self. Meaning did he take the power of it and asorb it some how ? Me i highly doubt it but i thoughtt along those lines. And thats why he may have that shining nimbus of light on his brain?

[_CLOUD]

But what if the nimbus of light around his brain is the mark of the Creator? Rand is after all the champion of the Light. Even though the Creator isn't aiding him in a direct way, that doesnt mean that Rand can't borrow some of the Creator's powers. If the One Power is the essence of the Creator than that can explain why Rand is now so powerful even without any ter'angreal. It would also explain why he can sense the Shadow now and use the Light in his weavings.

[OptimusPrime]

Well the whole thing about Rand being protected from the madness makes me think it is the connection to Moridin that is protecting him. The Chosen have protection from the Taint, whats to say Rand isnt gaining Chosen benefits, like the same protection?

 

I find it hard to believe hes been holding Saidin all this time, not with all the stuff about it being addictive and everything. I mean obviously Rand is addicted to saidin as we have seen through earlier books, but I dont think hes that much of a junky that he holds it all the time nor do I believe holding it would protect him from any madness he accrued along the way. If it protects him from madness then how could Lews Therin have siezed saidin from him?

[LoLPoR]

Doesn't anyone else think this has something to do with his brown cloak he started wearing in ToM when he came down off dragonmount. Theres something up with that. If that isn't some kind of ter'angreal then I'll eat AMOL after I finish it.

[Rubberninja]

Doesn't anyone else think this has something to do with his brown cloak he started wearing in ToM when he came down off dragonmount. Theres something up with that. If that isn't some kind of ter'angreal then I'll eat AMOL after I finish it.

Quoted for reference after AMOL.

I believe the brown cloak is the one he got from the Tinkers outside Ebou Dar, on his way to destroy the Seanchan Blood in the palace. I don't think there's anything special about it at all.

As for the OP, it's plausible that Rand is constantly holding on to Saidin. It would be very Jordan-ish to make Min comment on Rand no longer feeling sick before channeling, aswell as Egwenes test for Accepted, where Rand is pinned under some rubble in Caemlyn, holding off the madness, asking for a dagger.

I've aired a theory that this will come to pass before, only the dagger is not for his heart, but the dagger Aviendha discovered could hide your pressence from the Shadow. Your theory that Rand now holds Saidin continuously ties in very well with that scenario

[lolguy26]

Doesn't anyone else think this has something to do with his brown cloak he started wearing in ToM when he came down off dragonmount. Theres something up with that. If that isn't some kind of ter'angreal then I'll eat AMOL after I finish it.

 

its a beggars cloak (unless im wrong)

[b3arz3rg3r]

I think VOG changed his ability in a fundamental way. What he did there would have burned him out or killed him had he been anybody else, but because Rand's capacity with the One Power is so large instead of the backlash harming him it brought him only closer to saidin, perhaps even made saidin a part of him or him a part of saidin if you wish.

 

As for whether he is holding saidin continuously I don't think so. Cadsuane probably would have given sign of it.

[Suttree]

i belive this is why he has become so powerfull over the course of the last book.

 

Per Brandon his power increase happened long before that...

Interview: Dec 17th, 2011

Alloy of Law Signing Report - Loialson (Verbatim)

LOIALSON

 

Yes...Are the impressive displays of power that Rand makes in Towers of Midnight (i.e., stopping the Trolloc army and having no concern over being able to leave the White Tower) a result of his integrated knowledge or his ta'veren nature?

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

Umm...Both, though, one thing you have to keep in mind, is...Rand, as a result of power level...Robert Jordan was specifically not using him very often because his power had grown so powerful even by the end of Knife of Dreams. I mean, you look at Knife of Dreams—if you go reread the fight in Knife of Dreams he is laying waste to nearly as many Trollocs as he has when he does the battle at the temple—which is not actually called that in the books—that's the one with the Trollocs and things [referencing Rand's big single-handed fight in Towers of Midnight]. And so...yes, some of these things have changed, but he's really powerful now.

[b3arz3rg3r]

i belive this is why he has become so powerfull over the course of the last book.

 

Per Brandon his power increase happened long before that...

Interview: Dec 17th, 2011

Alloy of Law Signing Report - Loialson (Verbatim)

LOIALSON

 

Yes...Are the impressive displays of power that Rand makes in Towers of Midnight (i.e., stopping the Trolloc army and having no concern over being able to leave the White Tower) a result of his integrated knowledge or his ta'veren nature?

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

Umm...Both, though, one thing you have to keep in mind, is...Rand, as a result of power level...Robert Jordan was specifically not using him very often because his power had grown so powerful even by the end of Knife of Dreams. I mean, you look at Knife of Dreams—if you go reread the fight in Knife of Dreams he is laying waste to nearly as many Trollocs as he has when he does the battle at the temple—which is not actually called that in the books—that's the one with the Trollocs and things [referencing Rand's big single-handed fight in Towers of Midnight]. And so...yes, some of these things have changed, but he's really powerful now.

 

As I said before if this is the case BS just did a really bad job at depicting that those feats were supposed to be equal, because in one case he drives back an army of over a million shadowspawn on his own and in the other he and dozens of other channellers destroy less than a tenth part of that.

[Rubberninja]

I've just realized, Rand can't be holding Saidin continuously, because he entered the affected area of the Far Madding Guardians after he came back from Dragonmount.

[b3arz3rg3r]

I've just realized, Rand can't be holding Saidin continuously, because he entered the affected area of the Far Madding Guardians after he came back from Dragonmount.

 

That is if as he is now he is even affected by the Guardians. Afterall they are only an imitation of a stedding, not a real one. Rand showed no hesitation when two full circles shielded him and Egwene sensed that he could have easily broken free.

[Rubberninja]

That is if as he is now he is even affected by the Guardians. Afterall they are only an imitation of a stedding, not a real one. Rand showed no hesitation when two full circles shielded him and Egwene sensed that he could have easily broken free.

Rand says to the rulers of the borderlands that the guardians stop the One Power, and the One power only.

If Rand was shielded when he visited Egwene in the White Tower, he couldn't have held of the madness

 

Unless he is using the True Power to hold off the madness, I'm pretty sure this is a bust. Something tells me that using the TP to hold off the madness wouldn't leave any kind of bright/light/shiny effect for Nynaeve to see.

[Suttree]

As I said before if this is the case BS just did a really bad job at depicting that those feats were supposed to be equal, because in one case he drives back an army of over a million shadowspawn on his own and in the other he and dozens of other channellers destroy less than a tenth part of that.

 

As others have shown before your count of over a million is way off. We have nothing from the texts that mentions those types of numbers(at least no one has been able to show how they reached that conclusion). There where tens of thousands dead mentioned in both instances although "entire legions" escaped at Maradon. It still doesn't add up to to "over a million".

[b3arz3rg3r]

As I said before if this is the case BS just did a really bad job at depicting that those feats were supposed to be equal, because in one case he drives back an army of over a million shadowspawn on his own and in the other he and dozens of other channellers destroy less than a tenth part of that.

 

As others have shown before your count of over a million is way off. We have nothing from the texts that mentions those types of numbers. There where tens of thousands dead in both instances although "entire legions" escaped at Maradon. It still doesn't add up to to "over a million".

 

We don't have numbers but we do know that there were hundreds of thousands of shadowspawn involved in the attack on Maradon which Ituralde defended against for weeks with over 50k soldiers and I believe 100 Asha'man and then we have a line that many times that number appeared when Rand destroyed them. I don't know how you define many, but when I hear many I imagine a number greater than three or four. So the number one million really doesn't sound unlikely. And if you go through the books you can't help but notice that Trollocs have a ridiculously high breaking point in terms of casualties. I don't think they ever fled before they had long since exceeded 30 percent casualties.

[Suttree]

We don't have numbers but we do know that there were hundreds of thousands of shadowspawn involved in the attack on Maradon which Ituralde defended against for weeks with over 50k soldiers and I believe 100 Asha'man and then we have a line that many times that number appeared when Rand destroyed them.

 

We have to go off the numbers mentioned, anything else is just random speculation. I have no doubt he drove off a large number but nothing close to 1million. Frankly to me 500k would be pushing it a bit.

 

In addition I would be interested to see you build a theory around that 30%. I have never seen anything like that brought up anywhere at DM or TL.

[Khazul]

Forgive me for posting this late, but I believe I know of contradiction. Right after Rand comes down from Dragonmount, he goes to Tar Valon. In the Amyrlin's presence, he is shielded by two full circles (if I recall correctly). So he could not have been holding saidin this entire time.

[he who comes with a bong]

Forgive me for posting this late, but I believe I know of contradiction. Right after Rand comes down from Dragonmount, he goes to Tar Valon. In the Amyrlin's presence, he is shielded by two full circles (if I recall correctly). So he could not have been holding saidin this entire time.

 

He seems so confident and sure of him self when he is under those 2 circles. That i think like they said that he would have no problems dealing with both circles at once. I think he has somehow become the embodiment of the one power its self.

[Khazul]

Forgive me for posting this late, but I believe I know of contradiction. Right after Rand comes down from Dragonmount, he goes to Tar Valon. In the Amyrlin's presence, he is shielded by two full circles (if I recall correctly). So he could not have been holding saidin this entire time.

 

He seems so confident and sure of him self when he is under those 2 circles. That i think like they said that he would have no problems dealing with both circles at once. I think he has somehow become the embodiment of the one power its self.

 

I disagree. I believe he is confident there because he still has access to the true power. The shields (assumption) only block access to the one power, not the true power. It is much the same as later in the book, when he is confronting the Borderland Rulers. They slap him, and he responds by saying that had he come earlier he would have balefired them. They respond by saying that the guardian would have prevented that. He then says that it blocks the one power only.

[Sharaman]

Nynaeve and Cadsuane both have ter'angreals that would tell them if Rand was holding saidin. They might remark on it - certainly Nyn should notice when she's delving him.

Ditto the Ashaman might wonder what the hell he was upto.

That's apart from the meeting with Egwene.

[Entreri]

Rand has move beyond what he was capable as LTT. Egwene was certain he could have broken that shield. The veins of Light in his mind.

 

His children with Aviendha are super channelers (always holds saidin/saidar and what they think they channel/fast as thought). He children capabilities are far beyond any channeler.

[Hopefire]

We don't have numbers but we do know that there were hundreds of thousands of shadowspawn involved in the attack on Maradon which Ituralde defended against for weeks with over 50k soldiers and I believe 100 Asha'man and then we have a line that many times that number appeared when Rand destroyed them.

 

We have to go off the numbers mentioned, anything else is just random speculation. I have no doubt he drove off a large number but nothing close to 1million. Frankly to me 500k would be pushing it a bit.

 

In addition I would be interested to see you build a theory around that 30%. I have never seen anything like that brought up anywhere at DM or TL.

 

 

The logic behind estimates for Shadowspawn numbers being in the millions comes for two reasons: Itaralde can’t count that high, and he and Bashere knows that the Aiel work for Rand.

 

The initial description of the approaching Shadowspawn forces:

Beyond the hill, surging down through the pass, was an awesome force of Trollocs, many times the number that had assaulted Maradon. The wave of monsters seemed to continue on forever.

“We need to go,” Bashere said, lowering his looking glass. “Immediately.”

“Light!” Ituralde whispered. “If that force gets past us, there won’t be anything in Saldaea, Andor or Arad Doman that can stop it. Please tell me the Lord Dragon made peace with the Seanchan, as he promised?”

 

And a few lines later,

”We need to get out of the city,” Bashere said, his voice urgent. “I’m sorry, man. Maradon is lost.”

 

Two things about this. Firstly, Ituralde is a Great Captain. He knows how important it is to properly estimate the size of a force. He identifies the company rescuing him earlier in the chapter as being hundreds by sound alone. The Great Captains and Mat have consistently been able to make intelligent decisions about the size and ability of other forces that have been borne out as mostly accurate. Bashere and Ituralde both think that Rand’s current forces are inadequate to the task of holding Maradon.

 

Ituralde had what, 50k soldiers and 100 Asha’man? He was ground down in a losing battle to the Shadowspawn forces. Since he’s a Great Captain, I’m going to assume that the Shadowspawn at least matched his numbers, 50k on their part. “Many times the number that had assaulted Maradon” is an indefinite number, but it sets 150k as the very base amount that could be attacking (otherwise he would have just said twice or over twice).

 

Bashere knows about Callandor. He knows about the Asha’man. He knows that Rand can call upon the Aiel and hundreds of Wise Ones to fight the Shadowspawn, and that the Aiel are already being gathered for the Last Battle, and at this point in the timeline should be just about fully gathered. He knows that Tear and Illian are mobilized. Rand should be able to pull together somewhere between 200-350,000 troops in a matter of hours, before considering the Asha’man or calling in help from the reunited White Tower or from Andor. If this was an army in the tens of thousands, he would be making plans regarding how he’d be using Gateways to attack their flanks and asking Rand to start bringing in Stone Dogs to hold the gap.

 

Instead, Bashere’s response is “This city, where I am a Prince, which I have defended all my life, which my family has defended for dozens of generations? Yeah, let’s just go home.” There wasn’t even an arguments along the lines of “Let them invest the city, and then catch them with their army split.” It was just “RUN AWAY!”

 

Finally, there are the opening lines of the storm of light:

Light and Power exploded from the Dragon Reborn. He was like an entire army of channelers. Thousands of Shadowspawn died. Deathgates sprang up, striking across the ground, killing hundreds.

 

That is how the first few seconds went. Thousands in the first few seconds, before he started calling in the lightning blasts and tornadoes of fire. The storm went on for hours. Tens of thousands are dead in front of him in the field, and that doesn’t cover the hills above – since the invading force started in the hills, with the ones that almost reached Rand being the most forward elements, and since he was very definitely killing them in the hills (see the comment about the hill forts being somehow untouched), it’s a reasonable expectation that the majority of the death was not the tens of thousands in front of him but the bulk of the army behind them.

 

In short, two Great Captains (one of whom has a very good idea of exactly how much military force Rand can bring to bear) both see the army and think “LOL NO.” The forward vanguard alone was in the tens of thousands. And Rand was killing them for hours, killing thousands every minute.

 

So, there’s the argument. If Rand was facing a force in the tens of thousands, Bashere would have been asking whether he wants to potentially weaken his armies now, rather than at the Last Battle. Hundreds of thousands, they would have been considering what tactics they could use to weaken it before finishing it off with Rand’s combined armies, whether or not they could hold the breach long enough to bring in reinforcements, etc. Millions? LOL NO, GOTTA GO.

 

We’re never provided with definite numbers, but I think that the reasoning holds – Rand was able to kill hundreds of thousands of Shadowspawn, very likely a number approaching or in excess of a million.