Who's Voice was In Rand's Head End of Eye of the World?

[herid]

the mere fact that the voice spoke in Rand's head is interference with the world. It would still be interference even if the voice was just humming or talking gibberish. It actually imparts information, if rather cryptic one. just making Rand's skull vibrate would be interference. RJ's quote is quite absolute and as foreceful as it can be. there are no caveats or anything.

aside from...creating...the Pattern, he does nothing else whatsoever to influence anything.

and the descriptions of the voices that Rand and Demandred hear are extremely similar.

[Suttree]

the mere fact that the voice spoke in Rand's head is interference with the world. It would still be interference even if the voice was just humming or talking gibberish.

 

Hence why it is an early bookism. If the series was to be much shorter(three books)I can see him announcing the fact that Rand would have no help. Spelling it out if you will that the CoL was on his own.

[Wool-headed lummox]

the mere fact that the voice spoke in Rand's head is interference with the world

That depends on how literally you want to interpret RJ's quote. Authors are humans too, you know. They can be imprecise. The Creator telling Rand a few words that impart little to no new information seems like the kind of exception one could fail to mention for the sake of giving a clear-cut answer.

 

My reasoning is that the VOICE was either the Creator, or the Dark One. It makes little sense to assume the DO would contact Rand all the way in Tarwin's Gap (at the edge of the Blight, mind you), and tell him something as cryptic and forgettable as "it is not here, I will take no part". Being mysterious, passive and detached is the Creator's trademark, not the Dark One's.

[herid]

@Suttree I don't see how this can be justified as an early bookism. an early bookism is something pertaining the rules of the WOT world changed in later books. this particular bit of info doesn't show up in later books at all. It's just something RJ said in an interview. he didn't have to say it at all or he could have given a caveat or a RAFO.

and the question about the VOICE was one of the most commonly asked questions RJ was asked. I don't think he would have forgotten about it when giving the answer about the role of the Creator.

 

@Wool-headed Lummox as I said the quote is as forceful and absolute as it can be. what more could he possibly say there to rule out the Creator speaking to Rand?

and there may be very good reasons for the DO to talk to Rand at that point. the fact that they are not obvious doesn't mean they don't exist. he doesn't just say that he will take no part. he seems to be saying that he will take no part because something (IT) is not there. as I argued elsewhere I believe the DO and Ishy baited Rand into using the Eye early to speed up the destruction of the seals. The DO might know that something necessary for completing the process is not there. IT could be Callandor. or Shayol Ghul where the bore is thinnest. it could be something else I can't think of.

[Suttree]

@Suttree I don't see how this can be justified as an early bookism. an early bookism is something pertaining the rules of the WOT world changed in later books.

 

Which pretty much fits this situation to my mind. Look, this has been fiercely debated topic for a very long time. This being the Creator and RJ not having things worked out has been the favorite over the years. For me RJ's quote makes it more likely to be the Creator because the message is identical. In addition when looking at the text as Lummox said it really is something that makes no sense coming from the DO. Regardles it is a topic RJ specified not be answered so we will never know.

[herid]

Regardles it is a topic RJ specified not be answered so we will never know.

wait, I've never heard this one. did he really say that this will remain a mystery?! I haven't seen this in the interview database.

 

edit: I just scanned through the database again and didn't find anything like that.

the closest I found is this one

 

 

Matt Hatch

 

 

I know you�ll RAFO this one but I�ll ask it anyway. Does the Creator, for a lack of a better word, weave the One Power?

Brandon Sanderson

 

RAFO.

Matt Hatch

 

Ok. I�ll jump off the Creator for the moment...

Brandon Sanderson

 

How about this, I do know...Robert Jordan...there are answers to these things that you are wanting to know...

Matt Hatch

 

Do you believe they ever will be discussed, like Encyclopedia type of things or do you believe..

Brandon Sanderson

 

...he did not want to leave explicit answers about a lot of these things. There will be hints. So, they are a double RAFO because they are the sort of things Robert Jordan did not like to answer and they could spoil things [...] Double RAFO.

But that doesn't say that the issue of the VOICE will not be cleared.

I did find however some more quotes where RJ says that the creator takes absolutely no action in the current world.

 

Question

 

 

The Creator's "Inability" To Act On His Creation

Having encountered a similar "theology" in Donaldson's Covenant series, I have been quite curious why the Creator can't act on His own world. It didn't seem to make sense, except as a plot device.

Robert Jordan

 

RJ answered this question. His thesis was this: A perfect Creator should create a perfect creation. To act, miraculously or no, on this world, would be tantamount to acknowledging imperfection in Himself. So, when humanity screwed things up, they've been left on their own to "patch" things up. :-)

there are several more but they mostly say the same thing again.

[Suttree]

Regardles it is a topic RJ specified not be answered so we will never know.

wait, I've never heard this one. did he really say that this will remain a mystery?! I haven't seen this in the interview database.

 

Hold on, maybe not...I was sure I read that but am having trouble finding it now. Closest I have come across is...

 

Matt Hatch

Ok. I’ll jump off the Creator for the moment...

Brandon Sanderson

 

How about this, I do know...Robert Jordan...there are answers to these things that you are wanting to know...

Matt Hatch

 

Do you believe they ever will be discussed, like Encyclopedia type of things or do you believe..

Brandon Sanderson

 

...he did not want to leave explicit answers about a lot of these things. There will be hints. So, they are a double RAFO because they are the sort of things Robert Jordan did not like to answer and they could spoil things [...] Double RAFO.

 

Found this interesting quote as well that I had forgotten about...

 

Interview: Mar, 2000

Letter to Paul Ward (Verbatim)

Paul Ward

 

Possible question: Is the Dark One pure True Power? Why does the Creator ignore Randland except to talk to Rand at the end of The Eye of the World?

Robert Jordan

 

 

No, the Dark One is not pure True Power. Who says the Creator takes little interest in the activities of mankind? And I will neither confirm nor deny that the Creator spoke to Rand.

[XoMeltdownoX]

The RJ quote about the Creator not taking part iirc, was in relation to a question about a "special relationship" between Rand and the Creator. I thought RJ RAFO'd the question of whether it was the Creator or DO that spoke to Rand at the Eye. In relation to Suttree's comment that this would remain a mystery, I remember it as well. Racking my brain trying to remember where. I think it was in a video interview, but my memory is not reliable at the moment. I am in bed with a fever; maybe I am dreaming all of this and the WoT is all in my head. Guess that makes all of you figments of my imagination:)

[Whizbang]

Thought:

 

Maybe it was the Wheel of Time. Think about it. If the Wheel of Time is going to spin out Heros as needed, and generally direct the fate of the world, adapting to the DO on an as-needed basis, then it must be sentient. That doesn't quite fit with the "I will take no part" piece, but maybe it was necessary for Rand to hear a voice in his head that he would assume was the Creator... and so he did, because of the Wheel. The Wheel certainly takes an active part in the affairs of the world. What is a little voice in the head when compared to almost always making the dice land favorably for Mat? Or causing little things like Prophecies and Dreams, or Wolf Brothers to be spun out.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this analagous to the God/Holy Spirit paradigm? All the various every day miracles are actually done by the Holy Spirit, rather than God (The Father) himself? Sorry if I messed that up, I'm athiest. So, if I am right, then the Wheel could act on behalf of the Creator all the time, and the Creator's hands would still be clean while getting his way.

[Mark Molzner]

Just an opinion:

 

The Creator creates the Wheel, the worlds, etc. Then he puts the DO into his prison, which just happens to have a flaw (attainable by humans) in it? Not all gods in history have been percieved as perfect, and I don't think RJ considered the Randland Creator as perfect. But this sounds a bit contrived to me. Not the authorship, but rather the flawed prison that the creator built.

 

Let's look at the clues:

 

The flaw in the Prison.

 

The prison itself. If the Creator can imprison the DO, why not simply destroy him? Nothing said so far indicates the DO is required in Randland. So if the Creator wanted a perfect, or at least harmonious world, why not destroy the DO, or at the very least, place him where mankind cannot reach him?

 

The Dragon. The Dragon is created, and used to defeat the DO 1000's of times (Ishy's claim anyway.). Therefore, the Creator has already interfered with his own creation from the very beginning.

 

The very nature of cyclical time. Minor variations on a grand theme.

 

The Heroes of the Horn. Again, the Creator has tampered with his creation. Special souls, bound for all eternity to the wheel, reborn time and again as needed. (yes, technically, it's the horn, but who/what created the horn, and who/what decides which people are bound?)

 

VOG. Rand/LTT gets to the heart of it when he says, "...so we can try again."

 

 

All of this and more points to 1 conclusion for me. The world is a test. Mankind is the subject. The wheel is a chance to retake the test as many times as required to get the answer right.

[FarShainMael]

@ Meltdown.. Time to start worrying is when Luckers or someone starts TALKING TO YOU IN CAPS IN YOUR HEAD..

 

..sorry, couldn't resist!! Give those bugs what for (and a large hot toddy)!

[XoMeltdownoX]

@ Meltdown.. Time to start worrying is when Luckers or someone starts TALKING TO YOU IN CAPS IN YOUR HEAD..

 

..sorry, couldn't resist!! Give those bugs what for (and a large hot toddy)!

Thanks FSM. My business partner just gave me a Polish remedy. I cannot pronounce the name, but it has a high proof and tastes like something Nynaeve would make.

[herid]

In relation to Suttree's comment that this would remain a mystery, I remember it as well. Racking my brain trying to remember where. I think it was in a video interview, but my memory is not reliable at the moment. I am in bed with a fever; maybe I am dreaming all of this and the WoT is all in my head. Guess that makes all of you figments of my imagination:)

I wish you a speedy recovery but I'm seriously hoping it's your fever talking. I will be very disappointed if the VOICE question is not made clear in AMOL.

[Yosarian]

I think the Voice is the creator.

 

It seems clear to me that in Towers of Midnight, Rand has tapped into some other force, some other source of power. He's suddenly vastly more powerful on his own then he ever had been before. And this seems to be some kind of "light/good" power, such that when he uses it to it's full extent darkfriends in the area literally go insane and claw their eyes out. I think this is why the Eye of the World is so important.

 

When he takes control of the power from the Eye of the World, it's discribed as a cable of light, as opposed to the cables of darkness that connect all the Forsaken to the Dark One. So what power would a cable of light be connected to?

[Suttree]

It seems clear to me that in Towers of Midnight, Rand has tapped into some other force, some other source of power. He's suddenly vastly more powerful on his own then he ever had been before.

 

He does have the light protection but as for being vastly more powerful we know that isn't true. He had already powered up back around KoD.

LOIALSON

 

Yes...Are the impressive displays of power that Rand makes in Towers of Midnight (i.e., stopping the Trolloc army and having no concern over being able to leave the White Tower) a result of his integrated knowledge or his ta'veren nature?

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

Umm...Both, though, one thing you have to keep in mind, is...Rand, as a result of power level...Robert Jordan was specifically not using him very often because his power had grown so powerful even by the end of Knife of Dreams. I mean, you look at Knife of Dreams—if you go reread the fight in Knife of Dreams he is laying waste to nearly as many Trollocs as he has when he does the battle at the temple—which is not actually called that in the books—that's the one with the Trollocs and things [referencing Rand's big single-handed fight in Towers of Midnight]. And so...yes, some of these things have changed, but he's really powerful now.

Now, the thing about in the White Tower is something different. [brandon smiles]

[Wool-headed lummox]

I wish people would post a link to the interview they're quoting from.

[FarShainMael]

I wish people would post a link to the interview they're quoting from.

 

Sutt's quote is from here:

 

http://www.theorylan...ain.php?i=725#3

 

(But yes, I wish we could get the source as well. I also would like second opinions on the accuracy of these transcripts.)

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

(But yes, I wish we could get the source as well. I also would like second opinions on the accuracy of these transcripts.)

 

The sources are available if you click on the transcript link, many of them have audio which you can listen to yourself. It depends who the reporter is as to the accuracy

[FarShainMael]

Thanks for that, I'll try it some time.

[Yosarian]

Suttree: He was already powerful in KoD, yes, but the display in towers of midnight was far more intense then that. I don't think Sanderson is saying in that interview that Rand isn't more powerful now, he clearly is.

 

Anyway, that wasn't really my point. I was just saying that Rand has something else now (let's just call it "the light"). It's something real. It's what is counteracting the Taint in his brain, Nyv could actually see it with delving; it's why he can spot darkfriends now and why they can't survive the amount of power he can put out, and it's why he had absolutly no fear walking into the White Tower. We'll probably know more in the last book, but I think there's a connection between that and the end of Eye of the World; I think the power he drew on then, and the voice he heard, is the same thing as is helping him now.

 

The Creator supposedly can't interviene directly in the world, but the Dragon is supposed to be the Creator's champion against the Dark One. Perhaps he's a partial exception.

[Mr Ares]

That quote from RJ that Herid cited:

 

ROBERT JORDAN

 

Rand has no direct connection with the Creator. The Creator is completely removed from the world; aside from...creating...the Pattern, he does nothing else whatsoever to influence anything.

 

(I'd like to have known the complete quote; '...creating...' could have been anything. The transcriber left something out there. Nothing else besides what?)

Or it's just there to signify a pause in what RJ is saying.

 

The Chosen regard the TP with a lot of wariness - Ishamael/Moridin alone indulges in casual use of it in the way you suggest. The others would absolutely not indulge in a minor but satisfying use like that - Moghedien's thoughts on the matter are clear, as are those of every other Chosen whenever it's brought up. They only use it in extremis - it's too dangerous to do otherwise.

No, you're absolutely wrong here. The Forsaken's wariness involves Moridin and his ever-increasing stream of black eye dots, which appeared in a matter of months since his placement in the new body, implying that he's been using the TP exclusively. That is what makes the Forsaken's skin crawl, not the idea of using the TP altogether. A tiny ball of light is nothing compared to months of unrestrained TP usage.

I'm absolutely not wrong. From the quote from the book provided earlier in the thread: "only the Chosen knew how to tap the True Power—the Power that came from the Dark One—and few were fool enough to except in direst need." Casual use in the manner you suggest is wholly at odds with that. They know the TP is both highly dangerous and highly addictive. So they don't use it.

 

We find out in ToM that Graendal has been granted access to the TP as a reward for her... outstanding lack of major failures. She uses it to weave a ribbon of Air to caress Arangar's cheek, showing off her new abilities and status. If Graendal, the most cautious of the Forsaken, could allow herself something as frivolous, then there's no reason for Moggy to discount the TP in the split second it took her to realize that the ball of air didn't seem to be made of Saidar.

But you point out the purpose of Graendal using it - not frivolity, but to establish her power and status over Aran'gar. It's wholly in character for Graendal to do something like that - she's cautious, but tries to give the impression she isn't. To conceal her caution behind a mask of frivolity.

After all, it's completely asinine to stipulate that the Forsaken would be reluctant to use the TP for tiny, instantaneous effects that require no more than a trickle.

But that's exactly what the books say. And I defy you to find a quote proving me wrong. When have we ever seen them making casual use of it? When have we ever seen it treated like it's OK for frivolous use? Who amongst the Chosen disagrees with Moghedien's assessment?

 

the mere fact that the voice spoke in Rand's head is interference with the world. It would still be interference even if the voice was just humming or talking gibberish. It actually imparts information, if rather cryptic one. just making Rand's skull vibrate would be interference. RJ's quote is quite absolute and as foreceful as it can be. there are no caveats or anything.

aside from...creating...the Pattern, he does nothing else whatsoever to influence anything.

and the descriptions of the voices that Rand and Demandred hear are extremely similar.

A highly arguable assertion there. What matters is not what you would consider interfering, but what RJ would. It is certainly not a universal viewpoint that saying you won't take part constitutes taking part.

 

@Wool-headed Lummox as I said the quote is as forceful and absolute as it can be. what more could he possibly say there to rule out the Creator speaking to Rand?

Well, he could say, clearly and unequivocally that the Creator didn't speak to Rand. But he didn't. Ever.

 

Thought:

 

Maybe it was the Wheel of Time. Think about it. If the Wheel of Time is going to spin out Heros as needed, and generally direct the fate of the world, adapting to the DO on an as-needed basis, then it must be sentient.

RJ: "And, no, the Wheel isn’t sentient. Think more of a fuzzy logic device that uses feedback to correct what it is doing in order to do it in the most efficient way." http://www.theorylan...ntvsresults.php

[Suttree]

Suttree: He was already powerful in KoD, yes, but the display in towers of midnight was far more intense then that.

 

Think the problem here is Sanderson has confused people with the way he described that battle. He got a bit carried away. As you can see he compares it to the fight in KoD an says flat out the ToM one was only a bit more. The descriptions of dead between the two scenes are very similar in text as well. He did nothing there whatsoever that used an new type of power as evidenced by the Ashaman being able to see the weaves.

[Wool-headed lummox]

I'm absolutely not wrong. From the quote from the book provided earlier in the thread: "only the Chosen knew how to tap the True Power—the Power that came from the Dark One—and few were fool enough to except in direst need." Casual use in the manner you suggest is wholly at odds with that. They know the TP is both highly dangerous and highly addictive. So they don't use it.

I'm sorry, but the only thing more monumental than your mistake is your inability to see it. The Forsaken only use the TP in the case of direst need. This is what you're saying, based on the quote you provided. Let's remember this.

 

But you point out the purpose of Graendal using it - not frivolity, but to establish her power and status over Aran'gar.

Actually, Graendal simply had to reaffirm her pre-established dominant status, Arangar was far below Graendal's level after being exposed and driven out of her base of operations. In either case you've just blatantly contradicted yourself. The Forsaken don't use the TP unless the most dire need you said? Where was the direst need for Graendal to channel TP at Arangar? As we know, Arangar was merely one of the many blips on Graendal's scheming radar, she certainly wasn't desperate to gain her respect, Graendal merely did what Forsaken want to do every second of their lives - demonstrate that they are powerful and superior whenever they can. Arangar wasn't connected to any of Graendal's major exploits, Graendal was on top of her game the whole time and risked losing nothing by allowing Arangar to grow cold/distant. Using the TP to sexually arouse a refugee Forsaken seems like the furthest thing away from a direst need for Graendal. She simply did it, because she could. Because it feels good, and grants you an advantage over others. Which is exactly the kind of thing a random Forsaken could be doing in Moggy's tent, as far as she were aware.

 

Which means, yes, the quote you provided isn't an absolute and inviolable rule. It's merely the exaggeration of a cowardly Forsaken - Mogheidin - right after a thorough honeymoon of passion with Shaidar Haran and getting mindtrapped and locked away in a vacuole. You may have noticed by now that WoT characters tend to say things which aren't objectively true, even to their knowledge.

 

And, finally, even if we interpret your quote as a 100% literal inviolable rule, which is about as reasonable as it sounds, Moggy says FEW of the Forsaken would be "fool enough" to use the TP outside of the DIREST need. Not zero. Not one. Few. As in, someone other than Moridin still might. And she had no guarantee that "Halima" wasn't that exact same someone, doing the exact same thing Graendal later did with Arangar - boasting, intimidating/influencing, and getting her kicks.

 

In short, we have no evidence whatsoever to conclude that Graendal was willing use a trickle of the TP to please herself and intimidate/influence Arangar in ToM, but that Arangar couldn't have done the same thing with Mogheidin in LoC. If Graendal did, then so could Arangar. To Moggy's knowledge.

 

I rest my case.

[Yosarian]

I think you're reading a little bit too much into an offhanded question in an interview, here. It's always better to base literary analysis on the books themselves then on outside quotes from the author.

 

Anyway, the power level isn't really what's important here, what's important is that Rand really does definatly seem have something extra now, some kind of "blessing of the light" or something along those lines. Like I said, darkfriends going crazy, apples growing around him, the light in his brain, ect. I think that was pretty obvious in ToM, right from the start.

[Suttree]

I think you're reading a little bit too much into an offhanded question in an interview, here. It's always better to base literary analysis on the books themselves then on outside quotes from the author.

 

Oh is that how it works? I did exactly that when stating the kill count is not much higher in the ToM scene than KoD and also showing the Ashaman could see all the weaves. If it was some new power they would not be able to do so.

 

So you see here we have analysis and author quotes combined.

 

I'm sorry, but the only thing more monumental than your mistake is your inability to see it. I rest my case.

 

Now this should get interesting.