Potential new prediction

[b3arz3rg3r]

Min's viewing was about Rand and Moridin, not Rand and Lews Therin (no matter what Rand thinks; he still seems completely unaware of his link with Moridin, despite Moridin telling him about it).

 

No, Rand is aware of the link to some extent. I'm not sure exactly where but I do recall a scene where he speculates about the streams of balefire touching. Moreover he knows where his ability to use the True Power comes from. Whether he has realized that Min's viewing referred to this link we don't know.

[FarShainMael]

Abruptly another image was floating in his head, a man's face, and hs breath caught. For the first time, it came without any dizziness. For the first time, he could see it clearly in the moments before it vanished. A blue-eyed man with a square chin, perhaps a few years older than himself. Or rather, he saw it clearly for the first time in a long while. It was the face of the stranger who had saved his life in Shadar Logoth when he fought Sammael. Worse...

 

He was aware of me, Lews Therin said. He sounded sane for a change. Sometimes he did, but the madness always returned eventually. How can a face appearing in my mind be aware of me?

 

If you don't know, how do you expect me to? Rand thought. But I was aware of him, as well. It had been a strange sensation, as if he were.. touching.. the man somehow.

 

..//..

 

When our streams of balefire touched in Shadar Logoth, it must have created some sort of link between us. I can't think of any other explanation. That was the only time we ever met. He was using their so-called True Power. It had to be that. I felt nothing, saw nothing except his stream of balefire.

 

So he's aware of the link.

 

Later, Rand is pulled into a dream with Moridin (TGS15). He recognises him as Ishamael, remembers him from Shadar Logoth:

 

He had met the man only once. At Shadar Logoth. The stranger had saved Rand's life, and Rand had often wondered who he had been. Now, in this place, Rand finally knew.

 

So yes, Rand does know he has a link to Moridin.

[Mik]

I always felt that the Dragon Reborn would die, not Rand. Lews Therin's soul or presence would finally move on into the Pattern, much like the people that were called back when Mat blew the Horn of Valere, while Rand was left with his own soul and memories. Min had a viewing that the two were separate and that helped convince Rand that he was not crazy and not hearing voices in his head.

Rand is the Dragon Reborn. LTT was the Dragon.

Both are the Dragon Reborn. Rand is the person born with the same Soul that Lews Therin was born with in the AoL, but with a brand-new Body and Mind. Lews Therin is also the Dragon Reborn, because his living Mind was able to tentively re-attach to it’s Soul the moment Rand was born. Rand is the Dragon Soul reborn. Lews Therin is the Dragon Mind reborn, both part of the same man.

 

That’s why prophesy predicted that the Dragon would (have to) be reborn on the slopes of Dragonmount –where the Dragon died and had accidently trapped his own living mind when overloading on Saidin when he had just placed the strong Sealing over his own Soul where Shai’tan was reaching through the Bore- at a time when the Seals were weakening.

 

There is only one soul, they are not seperate.

Exactly, One soul. The specific Soul that brings the Shadow and has to choose to seal it away again on the Last Day as the Creator had designed it. One Soul, one brand-new body but with two distinct living minds. One mind self-trapped that -guided by the Wheel itself through prophesy- had a change at freedom if that other mind would trust it. And one mind brand-new and of blood so stubborn it would stand a chance at holding off the Shadow’s influence long enough, if only by it’s proverbial fingernails. Rand and Lews their minds are both alive and –since VoG- both free.

 

One soul two personalities per RJ….. That was already covered during the integration of memories during the VoG sequence.

Oh, how convenient. I wouldn’t dare call a ‘bag of old memories with a fake Taint induced voice’ a peronality. You? You think RJ would?

Now a second distinct, living mind. A mind that thinks -with Thought being the arrow of Time and all that- now that I’d call a personality, yeah.

 

 

Min's viewing was about Rand and Moridin, not Rand and Lews Therin.

Selling speculation as fact. It’s not clear yet if it meant Lews Therin like Rand seems to think himself, or that it’s Moridin…or in fact Fain. It could still be either one.

 

"I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and....one of you dies, and one doesn't."

Personally, I think that at the end of AMoL we could say that all three could be fullfilled. The fact that you just need one single event to have a prophesy or a Viewing fullfilled, doesn’t mean that there can’t be more events that have the same prophesy or Viewing fullfilled.

 

And while I can certainly see Moridin and Rand merging of a sorts in TAR @ the Last Battle (see my thoughts on that in several other threads), I think of the three I mentioned he’s the worst fit, because Min literally says ‘one dies’. The way I view what Moridin actually is (you know; “Death”), I don’t think he qualifies to be called alive anymore at that point in the story. So Moridin dying is kinda weird, but with some poetic leeway, it might be written so that Moridin being defeated and seizing to exist could be considered dying in the same way that a neverborn ‘dies’ of a sorts.

 

As a sidenote; I think that’s why Moridin excludes himself when musing about how many people alive know how to play sha’rah in the Prologue of TPoD (the "Only nine people living even remembered the game." remark). Many people seem to find this a conundrum, which it isn’t if you simply exclude Moridin from the ‘alive’ section. And –logically- who better to realise he no longer qualifies as being truly living anymore then Death himself?

 

So yeah, I think Lews does qualify for this Viewing if –like I’m suggesting in several views on how the last battle will play out- he’s the one to deserve to die the final death. But it might just as well be either Moridin and Fain. And why not have two mergings be fullfillef by this same Viewing ..or even all three? This is RJ; he’ll amaze us by the number of ways the important prophesy and viewings regarding the Last Day can be explained, I think it’s going to be amazing.

 

(no matter what Rand thinks; he still seems completely unaware of his link with Moridin, despite Moridin telling him about it).

KoD disagrees with you, here.

 

Abruptly another image was floating his head, a man's face, and his breath caught. For the first time, it came without any dizziness. For the first time, he could see it clearly in the moments before it vanished. A blue-eyed man with a square chin, perhaps a few years older than himself. Or rather, he saw it clearly for the first time in a long while. It was the face of the stranger who had saved his life in Shadar Logoth when he fought Sammael. Worse. . . .

 

He was aware of me, Lews Therin said. He sounded sane for a change. Sometimes he did, but the madness always returned eventually.

How can a face appearing in my mind be aware of me?

 

If you don't know, how do you expect me to? Rand thought. But I was aware of him, as well.

 

It had been a strange sensation, as if he were . . . touching . . . the other man somehow. Only not physically. A residue hung on. It seemed he only had to move a hair's breadth, in any direction. to touch him again. / think he saw my face, too.

 

Talking to a voice in his head no longer seemed peculiar. In truth, it had not for quite a long time. And now . . . ? Now, he could see Mat and Perrin by thinking of them or hearing their names, and he had this other face coming to him unbidden. More than a face, apparently. What was holding conversations inside his own skull alongside that? But the man had been aware, and Rand of him.

 

When our streams of balefire touched in Shadar Logoth, it must have created some sort of link between us. I can't think of any other explanation. That was the only time we ever met. He was using their so-called True Power. It had to be that. I felt nothing, saw nothing except his stream of balefire.

 

Having bits of knowledge seem his when he knew they came from Lews Therin no longer seemed odd, either. He could remember the Ansaline Gardens, destroyed in the War of the Shadow, as well as he did his father's farm.

Knowledge drifted the other way, too. Lews Therin sometimes spoke of Emond's Field as if he had grown up there. Does that make any sense to you?

 

Oh. Light, why do I have this voice in my head? Lews Therin moaned. Why can I not die? Oh, Illyena, my precious Illyena, I want to join you. He trailed off into weeping. He often did when he spoke of the wife he had murdered in his madness.

It did not matter. Rand suppressed the sound of the man crying. pushed it down to a faint noise on the edge of hearing.

 

 

Also, we knew Rand and LTT were the same soul long before VoG. RJ did confirm it, that they couldn't be split.

INTERVIEW: Jan 7th, 2003 COT Signing Report - David Funke (Verbatim) QUESTION The question is, with Rand and Lews Therin, do they have one soul or two souls in the body? ROBERT JORDAN They have one soul with two personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I have cobbled together.

INTERVIEW: Sep 3rd, 2005 DragonCon Report - Isabel (Verbatim) AAN'ALLEIN A couple of related questions on souls. Can they be split? Is it true you can meet yourself in the Worlds of If, is that a copy of the soul, a reflection, or the same soul living in different worlds? ROBERT JORDAN I think I will have to give you a RAFO on this, except for the part, souls cannot be split, but the other, I think I will have to give you a RAFO because I may be doing something with that.

Ofcourse Souls can’t be split. But we’ve seen Minds being trapped already. We know that TAR is a world encompassing all worlds where Thoughts are Matter. We know that reality is like clay to Shai’tan at the Bore. Those are sexy ingredients to have two living merged Minds being split again.

We’ve already seen a ‘tearing’ in TAR when Rand fought Ishy at the end of TDR, the split-second before Rand convulsively grasps Callandors hilt. The moment that happened, we never saw the Sword that is not a Sword flash with a Light (linked Mind of LTT, perhaps?) of it’s own and we see Rand think he doesn’t know what he is doing (but does amazing stuff) atleast 6 times.

 

On the Last Day, during the Last Battle we’ll see the Dragon Reborn in T’a’r at the Bore (made possible through the sounding of the Horn of Valere nearby) and I think we’ll see two free Minds that trust eachother battle in the mealstrom of Chaos –in the Heart of the Dark- against the Shadow.

We’ll see free choice against total control.

We’ll see the Eye of the World (the Dragon) battle the Eyeless of Nothingness (the Nae’blis).

We’ll –literally- see the Dragon will himself into flesh made Light that will ‘embrace Death’/ the Shadow and the Dragon will hope for nothing but salvation and rebirth.

 

We’ll see the wildcard –Fain- come and claim Rand (his Mind, I think) as his and that will somehow save Rand from Death and will give him a foothold -a Soul- to return to the Pattern with.

‘It’s never over, Al Thor’

I think that paradoxically, the mad, manmade evil of Aridhol will ensure Rand will surive the Last Day. That’s why there is a wildcard this Turning; to give the hero a chance of survival to become a (non-channeling?) sheepherder to live a well-deserved life with Min.

 

 

Hey everyone! Why do you think, that the "twice and twice" prophecy is about him living twice and dying twice? Here goes the text: “Twice and twice shall he be marked, twice to live, and twice to die. Once the heron, to set his path. Twice the heron, to name him true. Once the Dragon, for remembrance lost. Twice the Dragon, for the price he must pay.” For me it pretty obviously means that he gets two marks for life and two marks for death. Twice to live and twice to die could be said like: "two signs for living and two signs for dying", it's not about two lifes and two deaths but two signs for both his life and his death. If it foreshadows anything, it's Rand's death. The first heron to set his path - get him out of the Two Rivers, on his way. The second to acknowledge him as the Dragon Reborn. The first heron is for his memories that he received in VoG and the second one for his death at Shayol Ghul.

I'm wondering why he would need two signs for life, and two for death. I feel that the 'twice' has a double significance.

I think he’s marked twice for the two living minds. That’s why the Dragon Reborn –in contrast with the other clanchiefs- has not one Dragon on his arm, but two. The ter’angreal marked the body twice for both Minds (Rand & Lews) for both experiencing the trip through the columns.

 

I also believe that his first 'death' was a metaphorical one and took place in VoG, when the old, darkened TwoRivers-Rand ceased to exist, and a new entity, Rand Sedai, a blend of Rand and LTT, was 'born'.

I disagree. The Dragon Reborn didn’t die on top of Dragonmount. He came close, but he, finally, fully chose life and the responsibility of being the Dragon Reborn.

 

And by doing so, he released Lews Therin his mind from the accidental mindtrap he had spun himself when he sealed the Bore and when he overloaded on Saidin.

 

In Veins of Gold, we finally get to see the unblinded Dragon. Up untill that point in the story, Shai’tan –through Ishamael planting seeds of doubt and changing Rand into an unfeeling tool- was succeeding in what we were warned for back in TEotW;

“‘Leafblighter means to blind the Eye of the World”

It was working, up untill VoG. Then Rand fully made the right choice.

 

On top of Dragonmount, Rand didn’t become more then he was throughout the rest of the books. Throughout the books leading up to VoG, the Dragon Reborn was less then he could be.

It’s like Hawkwing says as far back as the end of TGH;

“I know you, if you do not know yourself.”

 

 

(Edit: Heh.. thread-ninja'ed by FarShainMael about Rand knowing about the link with Moridin. It took a while to write this post)

[FarShainMael]

Worry not, shows we're on track!

 

But, about VoG being a metaphorical death, consider this from ToM12, just before Rand Sedai arrives in Tear:

 

"Three days," Nynaeve said. "Three days he's been gone! The Last Battle looms, and the Dragon Reborn is missing."

 

After all the stuff about someone being three days dead, that's just a BIT pointed, to my mind!

[Sharaman]

You assume Avi lives through the child birth. Her death and Aiel custom with children could mean that she has no say over the name of the children.

 

Terez, I didn't think it was even a question about Callandor. I will have to take some time to share the exhausting amount of information and foreshadowing involving the use of Callandor and the last battle. Whether it is used in the sealing or somewhere else, it is extremely important. Besides, one of Min's viewing has him holding Callandor. Unless you think he is holding the Death Stick instead.

 

Yes, I do expect Avi to survive childbirth, but even if she doesn't I expect her to make her wishes known regarding the name of the children. Afterall she has 8 or 9 months to think of names for them.

Given that Avi's kids and grandkids remember her face (which she recognises), she probably does survive significantly beyond childbirth.

[skalors3]

You assume Avi lives through the child birth. Her death and Aiel custom with children could mean that she has no say over the name of the children.

 

Terez, I didn't think it was even a question about Callandor. I will have to take some time to share the exhausting amount of information and foreshadowing involving the use of Callandor and the last battle. Whether it is used in the sealing or somewhere else, it is extremely important. Besides, one of Min's viewing has him holding Callandor. Unless you think he is holding the Death Stick instead.

 

Yes, I do expect Avi to survive childbirth, but even if she doesn't I expect her to make her wishes known regarding the name of the children. Afterall she has 8 or 9 months to think of names for them.

Given that Avi's kids and grandkids remember her face (which she recognises), she probably does survive significantly beyond childbirth.

 

I may need to re-read that portion. I don't recall her kids remembering her face.

[Terez]

Min's viewing was about Rand and Moridin, not Rand and Lews Therin.

Selling speculation as fact. It’s not clear yet if it meant Lews Therin like Rand seems to think himself, or that it’s Moridin…or in fact Fain. It could still be either one.

 

It's fact because RJ used the exact same language in that viewing as he did when Rand described what it was like, and when it was foreshadowed in TEOTW. It's fact because Lews Therin died 3500 years ago and can't die separate from Rand. It's fact for all sorts of reasons, and you can deny it until you're blue in the face, but I'll put money on it if you will. But you won't, will you?

 

(no matter what Rand thinks; he still seems completely unaware of his link with Moridin, despite Moridin telling him about it).

KoD disagrees with you, here.

 

No, it doesn't. Rand knows he can see Moridin in his head, and that's all. He appears to have no idea that they are actually linked, despite Moridin telling him straight out in TGS that they were linked. It never enters his mind. He doesn't know that Moridin is affecting his personality, his thoughts, and even his dreams. He's clueless, just like he was with Lews Therin.

[Amandera]

When our streams of balefire touched in Shadar Logoth, it must have created some sort of link between us. I can't think of any other explanation. That was the only time we ever met. He was using their so-called True Power. It had to be that. I felt nothing, saw nothing except his stream of balefire. Having bits of knowledge seem his when he knew they came from Lews Therin no longer seemed odd, either.

This is from KoD. He knows there is a link, but shrugs it off and says "It doesn't matter.", so I agree with the rest. He has no idea what this link does to him and doesn't really care.

 

 

edit: oops, sorry. I didn't realize FarShainMael had already posted this quote.

[Terez]

Why are you posting the same quote already posted? It's common knowledge; no one is unaware of it. Moridin has even explained to him how it works, like I said, but he is still clueless, and he seems to believe that the problem (whatever it was) was taken care of on Dragonmount. (It wasn't.)

[b3arz3rg3r]

(no matter what Rand thinks; he still seems completely unaware of his link with Moridin, despite Moridin telling him about it).

KoD disagrees with you, here.

 

No, it doesn't. Rand knows he can see Moridin in his head, and that's all. He appears to have no idea that they are actually linked, despite Moridin telling him straight out in TGS that they were linked. It never enters his mind. He doesn't know that Moridin is affecting his personality, his thoughts, and even his dreams. He's clueless, just like he was with Lews Therin.

 

You are right that Rand probably hasn't realized the full import of his link to Moridin, though it's hard to say since we haven't heard Rand's thoughts on this matter since VOG, but this reaction of yours is just childish. Rand is aware of his link to Moridin to some extent and you were wrong to say that he wasn't.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Moridin didn't really explain it, nor does he know what the bond really is.

 

The only comments he makes to Rand about it from tGS

 

"I feel so tired," Moridin continued, closing his eyes. "Is that you, or is it me? I could throttle Semirhage for what she did."

 

and then

 

"We are connected," Moridin finally said. "That is how you came here, I suspect, though I do not understand our bond myself."

 

Also, I don't recall any instance where it says Rand dismissed the bond, nor think that it is "fixed" post VoG.

[Amandera]

Why are you posting the same quote already posted? It's common knowledge; no one is unaware of it. Moridin has even explained to him how it works, like I said, but he is still clueless, and he seems to believe that the problem (whatever it was) was taken care of on Dragonmount. (It wasn't.)

You can see I said I hadn't realized it was posted in this thread. As to why I posted it, because you talk like you've never read it. You say Rand doesn't know he is linked with Moridin when the book clearly says he is aware of it. For the rest, I said I agreed with you. He doesn't realize what the link does to him but he knows that they are linked and how that link came into existence.

[Terez]

Moridin didn't really explain it, nor does he know what the bond really is.

 

He explained it in the sense that he said that was probably how Rand got into his dream, and that he thought Rand might be the cause of him being tired, and that he was upset at Semirhage for what she did to Rand. Those comments together were a big clue, that didn't spark a single thought. Also...

 

"I've felt a lot of emotions, in recent months. It seems that from the very moment Moiraine came to the Two Rivers, I've been struggling to avoid Aes Sedai strings of control. And yet, I allowed other strings—more dangerous strings—to wrap around me unseen....

 

He might have been referring to something else, but whatever he was referring to, clearly he thinks that danger is past.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Fair enough, it could be at that.

 

I don't think I could decide until we see more of his thoughts in aMoL, considering the sudden introduction of Egwene's chapter 1 thoughts that were absent for the whole of ToM.

 

Not saying that this is a mistake, just that putting aside these thoughts until it become relevant is a possibility considering.

 

(To be fair, this is as likely, if not less, than your idea)

[Terez]

Fair enough, it could be at that.

 

I don't think I could decide until we see more of his thoughts in aMoL, considering the sudden introduction of Egwene's chapter 1 thoughts that were absent for the whole of ToM.

 

You mean her plans? No one with sense ever believed that she was sitting around twiddling her thumbs for a month; there was no reason to believe such a thing in the first place, and it wasn't consistent with her character. But we're talking about Rand, who did in fact say the above out loud, and has a known character trait of ignoring things when he would like to believe that they're not actually happening. And then we have foreshadowings like this...

 

"Gawyn, he knows he shouldn't break those seals. A part of him does, at least. Perhaps that's why he told me—so I could gather resistance, so I could talk him out of it."

 

...suggesting that Rand isn't quite himself, and not because he's Jesus Rand.

[MarkDiLillo]

Terez, he pretty clearly is aware that there is a link. Not sure why you are ignoring that quote and pretending as if it doesn't state the obvious. We can speculate all we want about the degree of his knowledge about the link, but he is aware that a link exists between the two.

[Terez]

Terez, he pretty clearly is aware that there is a link. Not sure why you are ignoring that quote and pretending as if it doesn't state the obvious.

 

I'm not. I'm not sure why people are ignoring my point to argue semantics. Oh wait, yes I am. As far as Rand is concerned, he can see Moridin's face in his head when he seizes saidin, and that in those moments, Moridin is aware of him. He has shown absolutely no sign—despite abundant opportunities—of knowing it goes beyond that. For example:

 

Irritably, Rand pushed his sleeves down and dropped into a chair. What he had done made no matter to Logain. The man knew saidin was clean, but he could not believe Rand or any man had actually done the cleansing. Did he think the Creator had decided to stretch out a merciful hand after three thousand years of suffer­ing? The Creator had made the world and then left humankind to make of it what they would, a heaven or the Pit of Doom by their choosing. The Creator had made many worlds, watched each flower or die, and gone on to make endless worlds beyond. A gardener did not weep for each blossom that fell.

 

For an instant, he thought those must have been Lews Therin’s reflections. He had never gone on that way about the Creator or anything else that he recalled. But he could feel Lews Therin nod­ding in approval, a man listening to someone else. Still, it was not the kind of thing he would have considered before Lews Therin. How much space remained between them?

 

He didn't consider it then, nor did he consider it at any point after he realized who the 'other one' was. He didn't think about it when Moridin explained it in his dream, or at any point in his many POVs before the end of the book. He didn't think about it on Dragonmount. And he doesn't seem to realize afterward that he still has a problem. Which is, as I said, typical Rand cluelessness, and indicative of the fact that he never understood that it went beyond seeing Moridin in his head every now and then.

 

edited to add italics to my quote.

[Suttree]

He didn't think about it on Dragonmount. And he doesn't seem to realize afterward that he still has a problem. Which is, as I said, typical Rand cluelessness, and indicative of the fact that he never understood that it went beyond seeing Moridin in his head every now and then.

 

This to my mind is the most important part. I've always found it odd that people gloss over this when discussing "Jesus Rand" and the future as if he is all set and there is not further role to play with the issue.

[FarShainMael]

We weren't shown Rand's thoughts. That doesn't mean he wasn't thinking about this.

 

Come to that, we haven't been shown Moridin's thoughts about VoG, either.

[MarkDiLillo]

I completely disagree, Terez. He clearly is aware that there is a link. Brandons writing hasn't reminded us that Rand remembers there's a link, but that is not difinitive evidence that he is totally unaware. We have clear evidence to the contrary - we just haven't been given a reminder lately.

[Suttree]

I completely disagree, Terez. He clearly is aware that there is a link. Brandons writing hasn't reminded us that Rand remembers there's a link, but that is not difinitive evidence that he is totally unaware. We have clear evidence to the contrary - we just haven't been given a reminder lately.

 

Don't think she is denying Rand knows there is a connection, what he seems unaware of is the implications of the link. He seems to toally ignore it...

[MarkDiLillo]

I completely disagree, Terez. He clearly is aware that there is a link. Brandons writing hasn't reminded us that Rand remembers there's a link, but that is not difinitive evidence that he is totally unaware. We have clear evidence to the contrary - we just haven't been given a reminder lately.

 

Don't think she is denying Rand knows there is a connection, what he seems unaware of is the implications of the link. He seems to toally ignore it...

 

I'm not sure what he is supposed to do about it other than ignore it? This is where I'm confused with what you and Terez are trying to say here. He is aware of the link clearly, but he doesn't think on it very much or consider that it means anything. We dont know what it means either or if it is important in any way. Why is his lack of thought about the link even worth mentioning?

[Terez]

We weren't shown Rand's thoughts. That doesn't mean he wasn't thinking about this.

 

We were shown his thoughts plenty of times in TGS after the Moridin dream, and after that moment in KOD. And once in TOM. Not a single thought about it.

[Suttree]

I completely disagree, Terez. He clearly is aware that there is a link. Brandons writing hasn't reminded us that Rand remembers there's a link, but that is not difinitive evidence that he is totally unaware. We have clear evidence to the contrary - we just haven't been given a reminder lately.

 

Don't think she is denying Rand knows there is a connection, what he seems unaware of is the implications of the link. He seems to toally ignore it...

 

I'm not sure what he is supposed to do about it other than ignore it? This is where I'm confused with what you and Terez are trying to say here. He is aware of the link clearly, but he doesn't think on it very much or consider that it means anything. We dont know what it means either or if it is important in any way. Why is his lack of thought about the link even worth mentioning?

 

You find it unimportant that Moridin is affecting his thoughts, personality and dreams?!

[FarShainMael]

I'm sure he was thinking at other times, as well.