The top 10 fighters with the OP/TP

[elric]

logain is ther only TRAIN Ashaman who gain the Ashaman rank in the DT without beeing a follower of Taim

 

Min viewing of glory

 

a reknown false dragon who beat the WT atleast once before he got cought.

 

and that without entering the topic of if the pattern need him to be a champion :)

[Suttree]

a reknown false dragon who beat the WT atleast once before he got cought.

 

When did he beat the WT? The only time he went up against AS, Cads took him down.

[Damer Sedai]

a reknown false dragon who beat the WT atleast once before he got cought.

 

When did he beat the WT? The only time he went up against AS, Cads took him down.

a reknown false dragon who beat the WT atleast once before he got cought.

 

When did he beat the WT? The only time he went up against AS, Cads took him down.

 

I think he is referring to a battle in Logain won in Ghealdan in TEOTW, prior to his capture. Lan heard that he defeated Aes Sedai in that first battle. But I dont recall anything more than rumors.

[Suttree]

a reknown false dragon who beat the WT atleast once before he got cought.

 

When did he beat the WT? The only time he went up against AS, Cads took him down.

 

I think he is referring to a battle in Logain won in Ghealdan in TEOTW, prior to his capture. Lan heard that he defeated Aes Sedai in that first battle. But I dont recall anything more than rumors.

 

Ah yeah, now I recall that but as you say that is hardly evidence...

 

TEotW

Logain? That must be the false Dragon. It was the first time Rand had heard a name put to the man. Lan sounded almost as if he knew him.

"The Aes Sedai?" Moiraine asked quietly, and Lan shook his head.

"I don't know. Some say they were all killed, some say none." He snorted. "Some even say they went over to Logain. There's nothing reliable, and I did not care to show too much interest. "

[elric]

yup i ment that accident.

and i think the rumor all agrea on 1 fact -> AS tried and failed to stop Logain at that accident.

 

about Taim assume Forsaken training : i DONT C it !!!!!!

the main character the DO look in his diciple if selfishness

from all the evident we seen on all the forsaken -> they DONT TEACH unless forced to

 

they plot to kill each other so they rule alone, why would any Forsaken teach a possible rivel ???

[BFG]

Not sure that putting Eg on the list because of training by the Seanchan is reasonable - almost all Ashaman have had similar training, although her actions in the Seanchan attack were pretty awesome.

 

Nyn definately has to be above Moggy!

 

Ishy is a philosopher, not a fighter, so although he has access to the TP, I'm not sure that makes a great fighter - of course, he is batshit crazy, so probably gets several multiplier bonuses for that.

 

Demandrad - we've not really got any information on his direct fighting ability yet, yes he's acknowledged a general, a tactician - but that's a different skill that that of a fighter. Nonetheless, for lack of other people with comparable strength or power he makes the list.

 

1 - Rand/LTT

2 - Lanfear

3 - Demandred

(4 - Rahvin, if we're allowed to include that brilliant battle in TAR since they reached their with the Power?)

5 - Ishy (like I said, batshit crazy)

6 - Alivia

7 - Nyn

8 - Cads

9 - Taim (maybe should go higher)

10 - Logain

 

Egs vs Seanchan may mean she should go on the list, but at the time she had a circle behind her (the fact they were novices doesn't mean anything - she was using their strength, not their skill - and Sora's Rod(?) ). Not sure what she'd manage on her own.

 

 

 

@ Suttree - like Elric said Lan didn't mention any rumours that they weren't beaten (doesn't mean they didn't exist, and even then most people will spread the worst rumours), but my understanding was that one way or another the AS were unsuccessful against Logain until Cads stepped in.

[Suttree]

@ Suttree - like Elric said Lan didn't mention any rumours that they weren't beaten (doesn't mean they didn't exist, and even then most people will spread the worst rumours), but my understanding was that one way or another the AS were unsuccessful against Logain until Cads stepped in.

 

Oh I agree, we just don't know how the battle went and we know in Randland rumors of that type are hardly conclusive. That is one of the constant themes in the book. What we do know for fact however is when the AS made a concerted effort Cads was able to take him down. That disputes the intial point Elric was making to my mind.

[shortkut]

@ Suttree - like Elric said Lan didn't mention any rumours that they weren't beaten (doesn't mean they didn't exist, and even then most people will spread the worst rumours), but my understanding was that one way or another the AS were unsuccessful against Logain until Cads stepped in.

 

Oh I agree, we just don't know how the battle went and we know in Randland rumors of that type are hardly conclusive. That is one of the constant themes in the book. What we do know for fact however is when the AS made a concerted effort Cads was able to take him down. That disputes the intial point Elric was making to my mind.

i read it the AS we're defeated/unsuccessful in stopping logain but it is unclear how many, if any, perished

[Suttree]

@ Suttree - like Elric said Lan didn't mention any rumours that they weren't beaten (doesn't mean they didn't exist, and even then most people will spread the worst rumours), but my understanding was that one way or another the AS were unsuccessful against Logain until Cads stepped in.

 

Oh I agree, we just don't know how the battle went and we know in Randland rumors of that type are hardly conclusive. That is one of the constant themes in the book. What we do know for fact however is when the AS made a concerted effort Cads was able to take him down. That disputes the intial point Elric was making to my mind.

i read it the AS we're defeated/unsuccessful in stopping logain but it is unclear how many, if any, perished

 

We know it was a major battle is my point. It wasn't just a group of AS trying to take him down. We have no idea how said battle went and Lan disparages the rumors he has heard.

[BFG]

@ Suttree - like Elric said Lan didn't mention any rumours that they weren't beaten (doesn't mean they didn't exist, and even then most people will spread the worst rumours), but my understanding was that one way or another the AS were unsuccessful against Logain until Cads stepped in.

 

Oh I agree, we just don't know how the battle went and we know in Randland rumors of that type are hardly conclusive. That is one of the constant themes in the book. What we do know for fact however is when the AS made a concerted effort Cads was able to take him down. That disputes the intial point Elric was making to my mind.

i read it the AS we're defeated/unsuccessful in stopping logain but it is unclear how many, if any, perished

 

We know it was a major battle is my point. It wasn't just a group of AS trying to take him down. We have no idea how said battle went and Lan disparages the rumors he has heard.

 

All of which goes to explain why Logain is on my list, but under Cads :)

[shortkut]

@ Suttree - like Elric said Lan didn't mention any rumours that they weren't beaten (doesn't mean they didn't exist, and even then most people will spread the worst rumours), but my understanding was that one way or another the AS were unsuccessful against Logain until Cads stepped in.

 

Oh I agree, we just don't know how the battle went and we know in Randland rumors of that type are hardly conclusive. That is one of the constant themes in the book. What we do know for fact however is when the AS made a concerted effort Cads was able to take him down. That disputes the intial point Elric was making to my mind.

i read it the AS we're defeated/unsuccessful in stopping logain but it is unclear how many, if any, perished

 

We know it was a major battle is my point. It wasn't just a group of AS trying to take him down. We have no idea how said battle went and Lan disparages the rumors he has heard.

lan didn't want to appear to have a vested interest in the rumors to stay off the radar. We know how it went as well as we know anything word of god. Result= logain winner. What we do not know is the score

[Suttree]

@ Suttree - like Elric said Lan didn't mention any rumours that they weren't beaten (doesn't mean they didn't exist, and even then most people will spread the worst rumours), but my understanding was that one way or another the AS were unsuccessful against Logain until Cads stepped in.

 

Oh I agree, we just don't know how the battle went and we know in Randland rumors of that type are hardly conclusive. That is one of the constant themes in the book. What we do know for fact however is when the AS made a concerted effort Cads was able to take him down. That disputes the intial point Elric was making to my mind.

i read it the AS we're defeated/unsuccessful in stopping logain but it is unclear how many, if any, perished

 

We know it was a major battle is my point. It wasn't just a group of AS trying to take him down. We have no idea how said battle went and Lan disparages the rumors he has heard.

lan didn't want to appear to have a vested interest in the rumors to stay off the radar. We know how it went as well as we know anything word of god. Result= logain winner. What we do not know is the score

 

I get what you are saying about Logain winning(as you can see I agreed above) but the point being made as it was a large scale battle with more than just AS involved and the rumors are very unclear as to how it went down. We have no idea what happened to the AS. It is rather beside the point for the purpose of this discussion however as we already know Cads beat Logain once.

 

Edit: read again and understood short's point about low profile.

[shortkut]

Because she is cads. Do we know how? One on one or sneaking up behind?

[Suttree]

Because she is cads. Do we know how? One on one or sneaking up behind?

 

Well yeah, becausae she is Cads. We are attempting to rank the OP fighters. Her terangreal obviously played a huge role in being able to defeat him. She probably has very much come to rely on it's functions over the years. Don't think we are ever told the specifics beyond the fact that she came out of retirement and captured him. Safe to say Logain would have given his all in the face of being stilled however.

[Damer Sedai]

Re: Cadsuane vs. Logain

 

This whole matchup is rather arbitrary... I believe the original poster intended for this to be a ranking system without ter'angreal or angreal which changes the complection of a number of characters' fighting ability, but Cadsuane the most. The only scenario where Cadsuane didnt have the paralis net mentioned in the books or notes is Cadsuane vs. the toothless WIlder in the Black HIlls when she was a newly minted Aes Sedai, and it is suggested that she was handled in the encounter. Its hard to seperate her from her toys at this point.

 

We know almost as little about Cadsuane defeating Logain as we do about Logain defeat of nameless Aes Sedai in TEOTW... we know she was involved in his capture, but not whether it was one on one, or whether she had a lot of help from other Aes Sedai, as others were hunting him to. Its odd: for as much onscreen time Cadsuane has had since ACOS, we haven't seen her use the one power to battle others much at all (the KOD battle at Alagrin's manor is focused on Rand and Logain it seams) We can only infer based on her past successes. Despite that, I think while Logain is clearly stronger and picks up weaves nearly as fast as Nynaeve (KOD and the Death Gates), Cadsuanes extensive experience with male channelers, and her grasp of tactics (and her willingness to fight dirty) might put her on top in a fair fight, but its close. With her macguffin paralis net, I dont think its that close. C>L.

[elric]

we KNOW logain require a cricle of 6+ AS to keep shielded (and i strongly douth that the salidar AS trusted it into weak sisters)

 

we know that Cadsuan is NOT stupid and quite pragmatic.

we KNOW Cadsuan have high reputation any NO hold back about using any resource available to her.

 

why would Cads go 1 on 1 with Log ???

the way i c what happened -> she come she awed the on site sisters -> formed and lead a circle -> Logain problem solved.

 

rem how Elain AND Egy felt against the totally untrained rand (like kitten in the mouth of a VERY BIG dog) and they are stronger then Cads

[Suttree]

rem how Elain AND Egy felt against the totally untrained rand (like kitten in the mouth of a VERY BIG dog) and they are stronger then Cads

 

Don't forget Cads has a paralis-net though. Direct weaves can not touch her along with the net being specifcially designed to deal with male channelers. In addition per RJ she has the most experience of any AS taking down male channelers. Having said that we do know she was leading a group, would like to hear more details about how it went down.

[driedraspberry]

I think to be fair we can't consider enhancements beyond the person's natural abilities. That just complicates things. Like Rand could just hand callandor to Narish and he'd be at the top...

 

1. Rand

2. Ish

3. Lanfear

 

Their sheer power puts them at too high an advantage.

 

The rest are difficult to rank. I would however keep it exclusive to the Forsaken, Nyn, Alivia, Logain and Taim. The likes of Eggs and Cads are just not in same league.

[XXX]

Once we take angreals and terangreals into account then no ranking makes any sense. I would take Cads without her "equipment". On her own she just does not have the power to compete with the top tier channelers.The only reason I put Egwene in the list is because of her training with Seachan and also Moggy.Even she would not qualify just based on her strength,

[Suttree]

It depends what we are talking about here. There are many ways to fight and it depends on the situation, people would react differently. Also combat can involve many other non-combat weaves. Ultimately, I think the ranking is pointless, but here is my general rankings.

 

1. Rand and Moridin - Rand for obvious reasons, Moridin because of the True Power and his nihilistic insanity. I don't rate him that highly, Elan was not a fighter, but his lack of care for...anything... makes him dangerous.

 

2. Demandred - He was a soldier and a general. The second greatest man of the Age. The Cleansing isn't a good example for any of them. None of them wanted to be there, with the power that was being used. Beyond showing up so as not to get punished, Demandred didn't really care much. So when he was attacked, he just bailed. It wasn't worth it (to him), thus him thinking he shouldn't have to fight. Also, just because he does not want to fight, does not mean he can't. In a way, it is much like Mat. Mat would have the same reaction, but Mat is kickass when pushed to it.

 

3. Cyndane - I would have put Lanfear on par with Demandred, but with Cyndane's loss of strength, she doesn't have the power for it. But she is still extremely deadly, the most dangerous female channeller alive. She pretty much make a mockery of Alivia (in fact it is the most dangerous we have seen one of the Chosen). Alivia has like 400 or so years of being a weapon, she has a powerful angreal that makes her stronger than Lanfear was, not to mention Cyndane, and she had a ter'angreal similar to the foxhead. Still, Cyndane escapes without a scratch and manages to burn Alivia's arm up. Nice work.

 

4. Graendal - Graendal is very powerful, a skilled weaver and a fast thinker.

 

5. Taim we cannot be sure of, so this is really a semi-educated guess. However, he is very strong in the Power and I assume has been given training by Ishamael or one of the other Forsaken. We have seen his teaching of Asha'man to be quite effective in the destruction department.

 

6. Logain/Alivia - Logain is below Taim, he doesn't really have much experience with the Power, however, he is powerful, and with knowledge gained from LTT in KoD, he is dangerous. But I can't really put him above Moggy or Nynaeve because we have not seen anything to think he is skilled beyond being powerful. (although he most likely is) Alivia isn't that great. She can destroy, but has little other skill. A dangerous one, but not worthy of a higher position.

 

7. Mogehdien Nynaeve - Moggy because of her AoL knowledge, no matter her cowardice, she is still very, very dangerous. Nynaeve because of her strength and experience. She has fought many channeller-battles, while she is not very destructive, that experience is vital

 

8. Cadsuane - not all that powerful, but extremely skilled. The abundance of male channellers she has "handled" gives her much credit.

 

9. Egwene/ Narishma /Flinn - Egwene is pretty good at destroying stuff, but a level below the top tiers in Power and limited experience with channeller v channeller combat. Narishma is mostly another semi-educated guess, but he is reasonably powerful, which I would equate to about Egwene level, he fought at Dumai's wells, in the Altara-Seanchan campaign, Manor attack. He has been with Rand for a long time, and likely picked up a bunch of weaves. Flinn is relatively powerful (the most powerful in Rand's cadre and perhaps only Logain, Rand and Taim are stronger - we don't really know) and pretty skilled. He was given command of the circle at the Cleansing and proved himself to be apt.

 

10. Aviendha - Aiel know battle, the instinct alone makes them more dangerous. Aviendha is known to be a quick learner and as powerful as Egwene/Elayne. A step below because she hasn't really had the experience Egwene has with battle. However, she is certainly dangerous.

 

None of the others are really noteworthy, not to be in the top fighters list. Elayne is pregnant and does nothing much besides being captured/injured.

 

This seem about right to me.

 

I concur as well.

[Damer Sedai]

It depends what we are talking about here. There are many ways to fight and it depends on the situation, people would react differently. Also combat can involve many other non-combat weaves. Ultimately, I think the ranking is pointless, but here is my general rankings.

 

1. Rand and Moridin - Rand for obvious reasons, Moridin because of the True Power and his nihilistic insanity. I don't rate him that highly, Elan was not a fighter, but his lack of care for...anything... makes him dangerous.

 

2. Demandred - He was a soldier and a general. The second greatest man of the Age. The Cleansing isn't a good example for any of them. None of them wanted to be there, with the power that was being used. Beyond showing up so as not to get punished, Demandred didn't really care much. So when he was attacked, he just bailed. It wasn't worth it (to him), thus him thinking he shouldn't have to fight. Also, just because he does not want to fight, does not mean he can't. In a way, it is much like Mat. Mat would have the same reaction, but Mat is kickass when pushed to it.

 

3. Cyndane - I would have put Lanfear on par with Demandred, but with Cyndane's loss of strength, she doesn't have the power for it. But she is still extremely deadly, the most dangerous female channeller alive. She pretty much make a mockery of Alivia (in fact it is the most dangerous we have seen one of the Chosen). Alivia has like 400 or so years of being a weapon, she has a powerful angreal that makes her stronger than Lanfear was, not to mention Cyndane, and she had a ter'angreal similar to the foxhead. Still, Cyndane escapes without a scratch and manages to burn Alivia's arm up. Nice work.

 

4. Graendal - Graendal is very powerful, a skilled weaver and a fast thinker.

 

5. Taim we cannot be sure of, so this is really a semi-educated guess. However, he is very strong in the Power and I assume has been given training by Ishamael or one of the other Forsaken. We have seen his teaching of Asha'man to be quite effective in the destruction department.

 

6. Logain/Alivia - Logain is below Taim, he doesn't really have much experience with the Power, however, he is powerful, and with knowledge gained from LTT in KoD, he is dangerous. But I can't really put him above Moggy or Nynaeve because we have not seen anything to think he is skilled beyond being powerful. (although he most likely is) Alivia isn't that great. She can destroy, but has little other skill. A dangerous one, but not worthy of a higher position.

 

7. Mogehdien Nynaeve - Moggy because of her AoL knowledge, no matter her cowardice, she is still very, very dangerous. Nynaeve because of her strength and experience. She has fought many channeller-battles, while she is not very destructive, that experience is vital

 

8. Cadsuane - not all that powerful, but extremely skilled. The abundance of male channellers she has "handled" gives her much credit.

 

9. Egwene/ Narishma /Flinn - Egwene is pretty good at destroying stuff, but a level below the top tiers in Power and limited experience with channeller v channeller combat. Narishma is mostly another semi-educated guess, but he is reasonably powerful, which I would equate to about Egwene level, he fought at Dumai's wells, in the Altara-Seanchan campaign, Manor attack. He has been with Rand for a long time, and likely picked up a bunch of weaves. Flinn is relatively powerful (the most powerful in Rand's cadre and perhaps only Logain, Rand and Taim are stronger - we don't really know) and pretty skilled. He was given command of the circle at the Cleansing and proved himself to be apt.

 

10. Aviendha - Aiel know battle, the instinct alone makes them more dangerous. Aviendha is known to be a quick learner and as powerful as Egwene/Elayne. A step below because she hasn't really had the experience Egwene has with battle. However, she is certainly dangerous.

 

None of the others are really noteworthy, not to be in the top fighters list. Elayne is pregnant and does nothing much besides being captured/injured.

 

This seem about right to me.

 

I concur as well.

 

I agree, good list, and well thought out. I want to put Aviendha higher as the only Aiel channeler we are really familar with (besides Rand, I guess), but despite her warlike nature early in the books, she has been quite non-violent for some time and hasnt fought much of anyone with the power.

 

I would rank Elayne next, given her Green like nature, natural strength and deftness of weaving... and I would add at one point (CoT? KOD?) it was mentioned that her channelling should become more consistent "at some point"... AMOL seems appropriate. Personally, I want to attribute her many near-failures with the Black Ajah (and others) to a combination youthful exuberance and shocking bad luck, and she is ready to mave past these issues (I hope).

 

I agree its hard to rank battle skill afterwards, but I have been wondering...

DO we know what happened to Someryn of the Shaido? She was quite powerful, but like most Wise Ones very new to battle. And wasn't Tuon's damane Sura supposed to be very powerful? I wonder how a personal damane of the the DotNM compares to Alivia... And finally, we know that Merise noted that Narishma was gaining in power... do we presume that he is now stronger than her? If we put Narishma up this high, is Merise far behind (she has long been Green Ajah, and should have some comesurate battle skills along with well above average Aes Sedai strength, plus his strength to draw upon)? Kiruna seems pretty capable, but I imagine that there are dozens of damane and Ashaman who are as good or better.

 

Not that this really belongs on this list, but I would like to put Joline quite low on this kind of ranking... as Green Ajah her tactics might be good, but her Battlefield awareness is positively dreadful.

[BFG]

Elayne gets some bonuses for being a strong channeler without the constraints of the 3 oaths (at least for now), I still wouldn't rank her on the list tho, she doesn't have the raw power, no helpful ter'angreal that I can think of, and she hasn't been in any Power battle.

 

On a side(ish) note - should we include warders in with the AS? They have a vested interest in keeping their AS alive (and vice versa with the Ashaman. That should give Logain, Merise, etc a boost up the list. Also, if this isn't really a who would win a 1 on 1 then should we consider alliances? If so Cads would shoot up the list.

[Nightstrike]

Compiling such a list is more difficult than it is compiling a list of strength alone, in my opinion. So many variables. Same/different sex, short/long range, and so on might give different results. Maybe channeler A can defeat channeler B, and B can defeat channeler C, but C would've defeated channeler A ?

[BFG]

Compiling such a list is more difficult than it is compiling a list of strength alone, in my opinion. So many variables. Same/different sex, short/long range, and so on might give different results. Maybe channeler A can defeat channeler B, and B can defeat channeler C, but C would've defeated channeler A ?

 

If you were to extend the list so we could include two Rivers men (other than Rand), do we include their reluctance to hurt woman?

[Amandera]

I'm ignoring dead or incapacitated characters and all outside factors in my list, objects of Power, element of surprise, Three Oaths etc. I'm also ignoring WFs and WOs because we haven't seen much of fighting from them even though some of them are very powerful.

 

1-2) Rand - Moridin

3) Demandred: He is a soldier and a general, has been in war so experienced with fighting, has the knowledge of AoL.

4) Cyndane: Lanfear would have gone number 3 but since she's lost some of her former strength she is 4. She was able to beat Alivia despite the advantages of Nynaeve's uncomplete paralis-net.

5) Alivia: Probably the strongest female channeler in the series with Cyndane. She has 400 years of experience fighting, is extremely good at destruction but lacking knowledge in pretty much everything else.

6) Taim: I don't believe the Forsaken taught him as much as people believe. They are not the sharing type. He is here because of the sheer Power he can hold and he has experience fighting and is the leader/instructor of a military organization.

7) Logain: Same as Taim, minus the tidbits he gained from the Forsaken.

8) Egwene: Has experience fighting, plus the bits she learned from Moghedien. She is strong in OP.

9) Graendal: How do you judge how someone do in a duel when she would never put herself in a position to duel? She is not depicted as a fighter during the series but she is very strong and knowledgable.

10) Nynaeve: Similar to Graendal. Strong but not a fighter. Alternatively Cadsuane who is a fighter but comparatively weak in OP.