The Discovery of the Wheel

[Aiyen kin Leary]

One of the things that I've always wondered about in this series is the fact that just about everyone believes in the Wheel of Time. How would anyone know about it? If even the faintest memories of a given Age are long lost by the time it comes again, circular and linear time would look identical. How is it that the people of Randland know little of two Ages ago beyond garbled tales of the Cold War, and absolutely nothing of the Age before that, yet they are certain that seven Ages ago the world looked reasonably close to the present day? Was the Pattern itself examined in the Age of Legends and found to be weaving a wheel rather than a straight path?

[rand4747]

I guess thats what they believe and it just so happen to be correct :P

[Hagazussa]

Not all ages know about the Wheel, I mean there is a ton of indications that "our world" is the first age and so no such knowledge there. The way I see it a age is not remembered when it comes again, but the next age might have a fair amount of knowledge from the age before. I assume the Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends discovered the Wheel and that their knowledge have survived to the third age.I mean in the Age of Legends probably more was known of our age but in the third age all if forgotten save a few fairytales that speak of old legends. The same the third age they have some knowledge from the Age of Legends and probably someone in that age have had the ability to measure these things, I mean they could do allot of amazing things, and that the knowledge have just survived.

 

Now why they do not remember anything of the seventh age, well there are the way I see it there are two possibilities and it can be either or. Now the knowledge folk in the third age have of the first age is a few stories warped into fairytale and a handful of items at a museum. Most ages seam to end in a cataclysmic event and it seams a good guess that in WoT our world ended in a nuclear holocaust but the stories are so fractured so there is definitely not a given even from the perspective of a reader, hell it is not even 100 percent fully clear that the fist age is "our time" that is how little they know about it. Give it one more age back, and it is not strange that nothing is known. Also the seventh age would be the end of the cycle there is a fair chance that it was more apocalyptic than other ends of ages. It is possible that all life ended at the end of the seventh age and evolved again in the first meaning there would be no one to remember, except for a few occultists and New Agers who nobody listens to. I do not find it strange that knowledge from the last age would be known, and a little from the age before that but not further back.

[phoenixtrinity]

I have always wondered about this, myself. For example, if the current "age" in real life were actually one of seven ages, as in the Wheel of Time, how would we know? The only connection I can make in the WoT is with the One Power possibly giving some insight into the workings of the "wheel", in addition to the myths/legends/memories/histories passed on since the previous age(s). For example, it would probably be seen as pretty mysterious for Birgitte to be reappearing every age or some such - you would think someone would pick up on it if she had a big role every age. It's like in real life if someone historically famous was reoccurring every hundred years, I'd think that would be a bit odd.

 

Now, how they know about Ta'veren affecting the threads of the wheel, the threads themselves, or the existence of the Dark One and Creator at all is beyond me. It's similar to my confusion about the Bore - I simply can't wrap my mind around how they knew the power focused there. I can only chalk it up to the OP and that this is a fantasy series.

[Sid]

Well, for one thing there's the Dark One that seems to survive throughout the ages, and he eludes to the constant battles with the Dragon in times past. In fact he might even be the source of the idea of a Wheel of Time in the first place. He does talk to people after all. Additionally, Ishamael and Rand both seem to be able to remember their past lives and how numerous they are. Heroes in T'A'R are aware of things like that too. Ter'angreal exist that show past and future events. I guess what I'm saying is that there are sources of information for people to keep relearning that kind of thing. Coupled with some people's ability to live very long lives, like Aes Sedai or Ogier, the general knowledge of what existence is can get passed along from age to age, even through a breaking of the world.

[Hagazussa]

Birgitte would be born into the world every age, and she would not be exactly the way she is in WoT and once born she would forget allot of her other lives, also ages are thousands of years long how would it be so strange if you have a very good female archer born at some point, how would that make someone notice anything.

 

As for how Lanfear knew where to find the True Power, she probably felt it, she is a mage after all. Now for it to make sense you have to accept the paradigm of the setting, in the WoT setting you have powerful magick so allot of the things like how Ta'veren works, that the world is a sort of tapestry which can be affected, the cosmology and so on would probably be revealed through this magick.

[phoenixtrinity]

...also ages are thousands of years long how would it be so strange if you have a very good female archer born at some point, how would that make someone notice anything.

 

I thought of this after I posted my previous response, and I admit that over thousands of years it wouldn't be as suspicious. However, if that particularly good archer was constantly doing things to be noticed and being written/remembered in history? It may seem odd. On the other hand, if I recall correctly, not all heroes are heroes every age. That could definitely put a hole in my line of thinking.

[Hagazussa]

The problem with the shift of ages is that they end in a huge cataclysm so that allot of information is lost, even if you had a master markswoman who becomes a great hero, all you would have is one more hero in history, you have several people in our own world's history which have been described as master marksmen who have done great things, no one find that very strange, why would the people of a fantasy world be very different.

[thisguy]

I have always wondered about this, myself. For example, if the current "age" in real life were actually one of seven ages, as in the Wheel of Time, how would we know? The only connection I can make in the WoT is with the One Power possibly giving some insight into the workings of the "wheel", in addition to the myths/legends/memories/histories passed on since the previous age(s). For example, it would probably be seen as pretty mysterious for Birgitte to be reappearing every age or some such - you would think someone would pick up on it if she had a big role every age. It's like in real life if someone historically famous was reoccurring every hundred years, I'd think that would be a bit odd.

 

Now, how they know about Ta'veren affecting the threads of the wheel, the threads themselves, or the existence of the Dark One and Creator at all is beyond me. It's similar to my confusion about the Bore - I simply can't wrap my mind around how they knew the power focused there. I can only chalk it up to the OP and that this is a fantasy series.

 

People already believe in the Wheel of Time in our real world. Look up Yugas. There are some other ones, too. And, how would we know? There are many aberrations in the archeological record that don't make sense. A good book on this is "Forbidden Archeology" by Michael Cremo (sp?). Why I like him is that when his theories about items or places are proven wrong or something new is uncovered that makes sense, he actually changes his book in the next printing. I believe he does this on his website, too. There's a lot of absolute trash out there about this sort of thing, but much that Cremo brings us is a real eye opener. Stone structures with joints so tight you can fit a credit card in between them (Machu Pichu) and the stones so heavy (even larger than the largest stones of the Great Pyramid) that the only thing whe really have to move them now would be the Space Shuttle platform. Our history is lost to us.

[Hagazussa]

That is a very good point Thisguy, there are allot of cultures who believe that society did not go from cavemen with rocks to us with our rockets and mobile phones, but that there have been other ages and that society ebb an flow, and there are structures in history that should not have been possible to do with the technology at the time, yes there are working theories for how the stones of the pyramids have been laid in place for example, but there are shafts inside them which would not be possible to do that precisely with the technology at the times.

 

In Cabala, Jewish mysticism there is a belief the qlippoth which are representations of pure evil is often believed to be the traces of worlds lost in time that God destroyed as they had become to wrong or sinful. There are allot of philosophies, cultures and now a whole bunch of occultists and New Agers who believe in a cyclic flow of time, this is not something new. Now off course there is a step from having those theories and knowing it to be the real and perfect truth and the folks in the WoT world do though.

[thisguy]

That is a very good point Thisguy, there are allot of cultures who believe that society did not go from cavemen with rocks to us with our rockets and mobile phones, but that there have been other ages and that society ebb an flow, and there are structures in history that should not have been possible to do with the technology at the time, yes there are working theories for how the stones of the pyramids have been laid in place for example, but there are shafts inside them which would not be possible to do that precisely with the technology at the times.

 

In Cabala, Jewish mysticism there is a belief the qlippoth which are representations of pure evil is often believed to be the traces of worlds lost in time that God destroyed as they had become to wrong or sinful. There are allot of philosophies, cultures and now a whole bunch of occultists and New Agers who believe in a cyclic flow of time, this is not something new. Now off course there is a step from having those theories and knowing it to be the real and perfect truth and the folks in the WoT world do though.

True. I forget if the belief is that we're at our sixth or seventh incarnation, but it's one or the other. Adam was not supposed to have looked like us - thicker skin, etc.

[Hagazussa]

Aleister Crowley also believed in varying ages, though his ages did progress nicely though time and history without a clear separation between them. The man believed that we are on the verge of a new one at the moment, and he did believe that ages changed with great cataclysms. Crowley have this quote about it which always makes me think about WoT every time I read it.

 

There is a Magical operation of maximum importance: the Initiation of a New Aeon. When it becomes necessary to utter a Word, the whole Planet must be bathed in blood.

[thisguy]

Aleister Crowley also believed in varying ages, though his ages did progress nicely though time and history without a clear separation between them. The man believed that we are on the verge of a new one at the moment, and he did believe that ages changed with great cataclysms. Crowley have this quote about it which always makes me think about WoT every time I read it.

 

There is a Magical operation of maximum importance: the Initiation of a New Aeon. When it becomes necessary to utter a Word, the whole Planet must be bathed in blood.

Interesting. Thanks, Hagazussa. I never looked much into Crowley and the Golden Dawn. Know a little bit, that's it.

 

I don't know about the need for a cataclysm, but I do believe in a WoT type thing. Sometimes, I think it might be a sprial the gets narrower and then wider again.

[Hagazussa]

Well if you are looking spiritually at it, a cataclysm is a way for one age to die to then later be reborn in a new one as a macrocosms to a human going through the same cycle of life, death and rebirth which then becomes a microcosmos. I am not saying it have to be so, but it would explain a need for a cataclysm if there is such a need.

 

I recommend looking at both the Golden Dawn teachings and Crowley's works, both have allot of insights, though if you are going to study Crowley's work having a look at the writings of Eliphas Levi is a good idea since Crowley where very much inspired by him. If you are most interested in a combination of Cowley's work and the Golden Dawn as the two parted ways after Crowley managed to royally piss the Golden Dawn off at one point and he left to develop his own theories and systems, then I recommend the works of Israel Regardie he was one of Crowley's students and worked with him closely, also if you are not used to reading texts on Ceremonial Magick then Regardie is easier to understand. But I seam to have gotten off topic, sorry.

[thisguy]

Well if you are looking spiritually at it, a cataclysm is a way for one age to die to then later be reborn in a new one as a macrocosms to a human going through the same cycle of life, death and rebirth which then becomes a microcosmos. I am not saying it have to be so, but it would explain a need for a cataclysm if there is such a need.

 

I recommend looking at both the Golden Dawn teachings and Crowley's works, both have allot of insights, though if you are going to study Crowley's work having a look at the writings of Eliphas Levi is a good idea since Crowley where very much inspired by him. If you are most interested in a combination of Cowley's work and the Golden Dawn as the two parted ways after Crowley managed to royally piss the Golden Dawn off at one point and he left to develop his own theories and systems, then I recommend the works of Israel Regardie he was one of Crowley's students and worked with him closely, also if you are not used to reading texts on Ceremonial Magick then Regardie is easier to understand. But I seam to have gotten off topic, sorry.

No, it's all good with me. Thanks. I might check them out. I'm not a big believer in magic. I think things are possible but they have a high price.

[Hagazussa]

I believe in magick I do not think it have some sinister price though, I just think it is a part of nature that science do not yet understand, definitely not a toy, and something one should respect but something which do have practical application. That being said the Golden Dawn material and Crowley's writings are interesting whatever or not one believe in what he writes about. But I think perhaps I shall avoid derailing the thread more now, if I start yapping about occultism I never stop, ask my hubby I talk until his ears bleed. :P If we are to continue to topic of Crowley and co then perhaps it is better to move that to the general section of the forum and a new thread as to not invoke the moderators wrath for derailing threads.

 

As for the thread topic remember that WoT is a magickal world where the entire population believes in magick, it is not difficult for folks to believe it and accept it as truth when someone skilled in that magick say well here is the deal, there is seven ages and...and such that just becomes an accepted truth among the population, I think it is as easy as that why folks in the third age know so much about the Wheel and also the average man and women in the street do not know these things, they know of the Wheel yes but not the details around it.

[Benganza]

...also ages are thousands of years long how would it be so strange if you have a very good female archer born at some point, how would that make someone notice anything.

 

I thought of this after I posted my previous response, and I admit that over thousands of years it wouldn't be as suspicious. However, if that particularly good archer was constantly doing things to be noticed and being written/remembered in history? It may seem odd. On the other hand, if I recall correctly, not all heroes are heroes every age. That could definitely put a hole in my line of thinking.

Being a hero and being famous are two different things. Not every heroic deed gets noticed by the public or the fame could be limited to a single village.

[phoenixtrinity]

Thisguy - Yes, I actually did know about people believing in a cyclical time system; that sort of thing fascinates me, especially the points you make about the deeds in history which we can't figure out how they were performed.

 

Benganza - True point~

 

This brings me back around to why anyone knows about the minute workings of the Wheel, then. How do they know there is a Creator for sure? The Dark one they could at least talk to/feel, but the Creator?

[Hagazussa]

This brings me back around to why anyone knows about the minute workings of the Wheel, then. How do they know there is a Creator for sure? The Dark one they could at least talk to/feel, but the Creator?

 

Short answer, magick. Probably some Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends discovered the details through some fancy weave or a technomagickal device of some sort and just shared what he or she found. Another possibility which is also magick is that everyone just know, they know y instinct just like a bird is born knowing where to fly when it will migrate for the first time, people just know, in either case I think the answer can be boiled down to a simple it's magick, we are talking about a fantasy world after all.

[Knivy]

Actually, in making constructs, souls are pulled into the construct, which itself would lend itself to some kind of revelation about the nature of the universe.

[Hagazussa]

Actually, in making constructs, souls are pulled into the construct, which itself would lend itself to some kind of revelation about the nature of the universe.

 

That is a good point. I just think they plain and simple found a way to figure these things out with the Power.