Cyndane's Strength (poll)

[chemteach1977]

Seems like this topic disapeared so i am starting this up WITH an other option this time.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I'm an other vote.

 

The loss of strength was incidental. She died while in 'Finnland, and when she was transmigrated, the new body, while being suitable to the Dark One's needs, was insufficient to support her original abilities.

[Cybertrolloc]

...the new body' date=' while being suitable to the Dark One's needs, was insufficient to support her original abilities.[/quote']

Arangar?

[Graendals favourite]

I'm for stilling and Healing. To me that is rationally sound. There must be mechanisms for everything, also the recycling of souls, and the DO is not omnipotent, and here we have enough indications that that is what happened, with the reservation that this might be an incomplete picture.

[chuckievi]

Yeah I really don't think that body has all together that much to do with the transmigration process, other wise Halima wouldn't be able to channel.

[Guest Majsju]

And who says that the body Halima got did not belong to someone able to channel? In the chapter where the 'gars are introduced there is quite an emphasis on the difficulty to find suitable bodies. Now, just what can it be about a body that is necessary but hard to find?

[Cybertrolloc]

Now' date=' just what can it be about a body that is necessary but hard to find?[/quote']

Not having been ingested by a trolloc?

 

There's a QotW about it, not much info. It just would seem weird that there would be a physical limitation for Lanfear, but they can dig up bodies for Ishy and Aginor that are groovy channeling-wise. And Bathameal...they probably could have put his soul into a cat and it would have been fine ;)

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yeah, it seems that the physical genetic component is as simple as an on/off switch, with strength and gender channeled determined by the soul. So a male soul (like Balthamel's) could use a female body's genetic component (the "on/off" switch) and still channel the male half at the soul's previous Power-level.

[Guest Majsju]

So, lets examine the most likely possibilities.

 

Stilled & killed. Seems highly possible. The new body more than indicates that Lanfear did die in finnland. If she was severed first, being healed by a woman would explain the loss of power.

However, if we compare with the loss of power that Siuan and Leane got, Lanfear seems to have kept far more of her original strength, as while weakened, she is still stronger than Graendal, and graendal is pretty gosh darn strong. Why this difference?

And how many shadow channelers would know the procedure? Lanfears first appearance is not That long after Nynaeves discovering how to heal being severed, so while the shadow knows of the discovery, they must still have someone who actually knows the weave. And the only ones who knows it at this point are Aes Sedai in the Salidar camp. Of course it is very possible that more than one of them (we already know Delana is) are BA, but are any of the Yellow black? All possible, but it requires a few more answers.

 

The new body not being able to handle Lanfears full strength. Possible, but not as likely as Lanfear being healed by a woman. If the body does determine the possible strength of a channeler, what are the odds of the shadow finding 4 bodies able to channel at forsaken strength, and 3 of them so strong that the forsaken recieving them not noticing any difference, only poor Lanfear?

 

Lanfear already having visited the finns, made a wish to become as powerful as a woman can possibly be, and lost that when she died. not very likely, since she should not have been able to enter a second time, even though Moiraine held her. But then, she could have entered through the Tower of Ghenjei the first time, perhaps that makes a difference. Still, I don't see this as very likely.

 

The DO stripping awa part of her power as punishment. Nuh-uh. The DO is running out of forsaken, he does not have very high views on 3rd Age channelers, and wants to win TG. Thus, wants all forces available to be as strong as possibly can be. After all, Cyndane is mindtrapped by Moridin, so her ability to do something naughty is basically eliminated.

 

The finns taking a bit of her power as payment for a wish. Come on, that would be the lamest payment ever. Especially since she most likely died in finnland.

 

Cyndane is not lanfear. Anyone who votes for this should have his WOT-books taken away.

[chuckievi]

Lol Maj, I read that and actually thought you were advocating that Cyndane isn't Lanfear. Then I read it again, and once more to make sure before my brain clicked.

[Guest Majsju]

Well, I did actually consider advocating that just to mess with people. But I'm not quite That mean. yet... :lol:

[Luckers]

As I've argued in other threads, the decrease in Suine and Leane's power is not as large as its made out to be. Realistically we are judging it based on their decrease is social standing. The range of Aes Sedai strengths is incredibly small, they only let in women above are certain strength, and their laz recruiting has resulted in very few women of great strength.

 

A comparatively small decrease in strength, in such a situation, would result is a relatively dramatic decrease in social standing. Certainly from what we have seen on the two since being healed they have to not been weakened to the point of innefectuality, and they still remain above the cut off strength for becoming Aes Sedai (Suines comments about women equalling or exceeding them in strength also infers that there are those that they still exceed in strength... if not many).

 

Given what Leane manages in CoT i dont think we can suggest that they are as weak as has been previously infered. My guess is that there is somewhere between a 5 to 10 % decrease in strength. Concider:-

 

Lanfear = 100% Cyndane = 90 to 95%

 

Still strong enough to exceed a majority of others, including potentially Graendal.

 

Suine = 40%

 

Now = 30 to 35%

 

Range of Aes Sedai strengths = 20% to 40%

 

The decrease WOULD place her below the average, and we know based on her comment that ALOT of Aes Sedai sit on the average line. That decrease in strength, taking her below that average line, would take her socially from being at the top of the hierarchy, to having to defer to the majority of Aes Sedai.

[V1zharan]

I'm not at all contradicting Luckers, but also, I've said in a different thread that it would make sense that the loss in power is static. Siuan and Leane weren't too powerful to begin with, so that static drop would seem a lot larger of a decrease in power than it would for Lanfear. If Lanfear lost that static amount, being as powerful as she is, it wouldn't be too large of a decrease. Another way to explain it, get a cup of water, and a bucket of water, take out a set amount of water from both the cup and the bucket, you could empty half of the cup while barely taking any of the water out of the bucket, it would be the same amount, but would look like a lot more was taken from the cup. That's the way I see it.

 

~V1zharan~

[Guest cwestervelt]

Well, I for one don't see how anyone comes to the conclusion that Siuan and Leanne's loss of ability with the Power was anything less than drastic. Considering it anything else isn't much more than wishful thinking.

 

In The Great Hunt Chapter 18, Siuan picks Nynaeve up with the power (1st weave), while holding Egwene immobile (2nd weave), and prepares to tan Nynaeve's hide (3rd weave). Sure, neither Egwene or Nynaeve are trained yet, but she is lifting someone while splitting her flows at least 3 ways. Then, after she is healed, when she tries to lift Garyth Bryne, she completely fails to budge him while directing all of her power into that single weave.

Lord of Chaos Chapter 30: To Heal Again, Page 426 (Hardcover).

Just to drive it home, she embraced saidar -- that missed sweetness was so wonderful, she shivered -- wrapped him in flows of Air, and lifted him. Tried to lift him. Gaping, she drew more, tried harder, until the sweetness stabbed like a thousand hooks. His boots never stirred from the floor.

 

Then, a little later in the same chapter, we get this from Leane when her and Siuan are trying to get her to redo the healing.

If Nynaeve couldn't Heal us all the way the first time, maybe she'll only take us to two-thirds what we were, or half. Even that would be bettter than now, but still most here would be as strong, and a good many stronger.

Hoping that a second healing would get them to 50% of there original strength? So much for the loss of power being minor when a woman does the healing.

[V1zharan]

I didn't say it was minor. I said the decrease in power would just seem a lot more drastic when it is applied to Siuan and Leane than when it is applied to Lanfear. Lanfear was at least made out to be one of the most powerful female channelers ever, Siuan and Leane were far from being anywhere near the most powerful, therefor, a drop in the power for them would seem waaay bigger than for Lanfear.

 

~V1zharan~

[Guest cwestervelt]

I didn't say it was minor. I said the decrease in power would just seem a lot more drastic when it is applied to Siuan and Leane than when it is applied to Lanfear. Lanfear was at least made out to be one of the most powerful female channelers ever' date=' Siuan and Leane were far from being anywhere near the most powerful, therefor, a drop in the power for them would seem waaay bigger than for Lanfear.

 

~V1zharan~[/quote']

 

So your saying that a Healing by a woman that would likely result in Lanfear being less than half of her original strength would still leave her stronger than Graendal is a likely occurance? Lanfear was and still is immensely powerful, but I really doubt she was that powerful. Even though she thought she was a god, I really don't think she would have qualified as the demi-god that would require her to have been. What the heck would she need with Angreal and Sa'angreal at that point? She could have crushed anyone else easily, even if the other person was using one.

[Luckers]

In The Great Hunt Chapter 18, Siuan picks Nynaeve up with the power (1st weave), while holding Egwene immobile (2nd weave), and prepares to tan Nynaeve's hide (3rd weave). Sure, neither Egwene or Nynaeve are trained yet, but she is lifting someone while splitting her flows at least 3 ways. Then, after she is healed, when she tries to lift Garyth Bryne, she completely fails to budge him while directing all of her power into that single weave. Quote:

Lord of Chaos Chapter 30: To Heal Again, Page 426 (Hardcover).

Just to drive it home, she embraced saidar -- that missed sweetness was so wonderful, she shivered -- wrapped him in flows of Air, and lifted him. Tried to lift him. Gaping, she drew more, tried harder, until the sweetness stabbed like a thousand hooks. His boots never stirred from the floor.

 

Yeah, i like where you end that quote, rather then going on to include the part where Suine goes on to comment that lifting someone with the power is one of the hardest things to achieve, or the fact that the linguistic progression shows that even she doesn't concider the inability to lift Gareth with a massive decrease.

 

How bout another interesting point. In CoT Leane devides her weaves 3 ways also... wow, your right... she must really be massively weak.

 

Then, a little later in the same chapter, we get this from Leane when her and Siuan are trying to get her to redo the healing.

Quote:

If Nynaeve couldn't Heal us all the way the first time, maybe she'll only take us to two-thirds what we were, or half. Even that would be bettter than now, but still most here would be as strong, and a good many stronger.

 

Hoping that a second healing would get them to 50% of there original strength? So much for the loss of power being minor when a woman does the healing.

 

That reads to me as the missing amount. Essentially she is hoping to recover two thirds of what she lost, or half, not get returned to two thirds her original strength. The simple fact is that this is proven by the fact that if Suine was reduced by more then half of her full power then she would be innefectual... Her strength would fall below the cut off standard for Aes Sedai, and that is far from being the case.

 

In any case the reduction in strength is static, not comprable. They don't lose half their power as it stands individually, they lose a set amount. a loss of 10% to someone at 40% is infinitely more dramatic then a loss of 10% to someone at 100%

 

So your saying that a Healing by a woman that would likely result in Lanfear being less than half of her original strength would still leave her stronger than Graendal is a likely occurance? Lanfear was and still is immensely powerful, but I really doubt she was that powerful. Even though she thought she was a god, I really don't think she would have qualified as the demi-god that would require her to have been. What the heck would she need with Angreal and Sa'angreal at that point? She could have crushed anyone else easily, even if the other person was using one.

 

Well firstly, Lanfear didn't lose half her power, they both lost between 5% and 10%, its just for Suine that represent a much larger amount of her strength then it does for Lanfear.

 

Again, not even Suine could have lost over half her strength. Sorry buddy.

[rd2000]

"Two-thirds of what we were" IS two thirds of her original strength. How can you possibly read it differently?

[Graendals favourite]

I must say it seems the argument is becoming a little strained. This is not necessarily fatal, but it is possible some adaptations are necessary.

 

We have the problem:

Assuming for arguments sake that wotmania's list is somewhat correct.

 

What we do not know is if there is a constant step between the different levels, or if the full channelling ability is linearly dependent on this difference. I'll expand on that later. However, was Lanfear as much stronger than Graendal, as Romanda is stronger than Morvrin? And if so, by the same amount, relatively, or in some other way? Both have a difference of two levels in the list. On the other hand, in the list, Lanfear lost 1 place, Siuan 7 and Leane 6.

 

There is some support for the differences to be linear: Linked, Alise + Asra + Caiden + Kumiko = 2+2+2+2= 8 which is enough to Travel, and they do in Caemlyn, even though none are strong enough to become Aes Sedai. However, this seems over-simplistic. Would really Aiden + Akarrin + Berenicia + Berowin + Cabriana = 5*5=25 beat easily any other channeller Ishamael and Rand included? I doubt they'd come close. Probably they'd be strong, but... I think the step might be near linear at the bottom, but it becomes greater approaching the top.

 

After all, such a list is more for RJ to keep track on which Aes Sedai defers to whom, than indicate a strength-ranking.

 

One thing is, that the Forsaken seem rather contemptuous of Aes Sedai, but fear full circles. Graendal noted that Someryn was not negligible, she didn't seem to fear facing Lanfear in the Fires of Heaven prologue. I get the feeling, that while the list doesn't give accurate differences, that the strength might be dependent on the square of the level more than a linear dependence. This would easily explain the difference in Siuan's and Lanfear's strength decreases. Or some other function, but square is simple to imagine.

 

I often think channelling as drawing saidin or saidar through a 3-dimesional tube, and the channeller's strength level would then determine its radius. There is no saying what the dimensions are in reality, but it is easiest to imagine. The wrong Healing might then disable some part of the tunnel, the part cannot draw saidar because there's a chunk of saidar-healing there. If it's in the outer fringe, the loss will also depend on the strength, but will be more significant to a weaker channeller. If it is in the middle, as of from the bridging, it will be of a constant volume, and much more significant to a weaker channeller.

 

Anyway, there's easy ways to try to explain the apparent differences in losses.

 

Adding, I'll yet give a numeric example of why this is now easy to explain:

 

Siuan's strength on the list was 11. 11^2= 121. Her new strength on the list is 5, which seems quite low, but 5*5= 25. So she'd have lost 99. Lanfear's strength was 21, 21^2=441. Assuming the same loss Sqrt(441-99)~18. If Siuan should have been on level 6, Cyndane would according to this be on level 19. So throwing in a little mathematics, the seeming inconsistencies may end up explaining to us how the thing actually works.

 

Second adding, I suppose some might say that using a little mathematics, it is possible to turn the most simple things very complicated, but adding the costant factor of 3 for pi, I managed to haul Lanfear to level 19 also in if Siuan is now 5.

[V1zharan]

I dont get how you figured out all the 11^2 and all that, but in simpler terms...take off the %, if Lanfear was at 100, and Siuan was at say...30, and they both lost 5, 5 is 1/20 of 100, while it is 1/6 of 30, its the same amount, but it is a much larger chunk out of Siuans ability.

 

So your saying that a Healing by a woman that would likely result in Lanfear being less than half of her original strength would still leave her stronger than Graendal is a likely occurance? Lanfear was and still is immensely powerful, but I really doubt she was that powerful. Even though she thought she was a god, I really don't think she would have qualified as the demi-god that would require her to have been. What the heck would she need with Angreal and Sa'angreal at that point? She could have crushed anyone else easily, even if the other person was using one.

 

Way to be a complete and utter dumbsh*t. No where did I say I agreed with the 50% decrease or w/e, I think 50% is waaay over-exaggerated, I in non way thought they lost that much power, so that WHOLE post was a complete and utter waste of your time to type, and a waste of anyone elses time to read. When i said static, I didn't say it was a 50% decrease or w/e, I simply meant they lost a specific amount, I wasn't even thinking of it in %, I thought of it in the way I explained it at the top of this post.

 

~V1zharan~

[Cybertrolloc]

Maj said to fight nicely, remember. I'd also be very unimpressed if Jordan did use a simple linear scale for power level too.

 

I'm underwhelmed by the number of times we've seen Suian and Leane channel post-healing (Suian trying to lift Bryne...anything else?), but they're not PoV characters either (Suian twice I think). Leane's hoping to get at least to half what they were is about as good as it gets info-wise.

 

Also, don't forget that they were stilled and the Oath rod weirdness that makes them younger...though females can tell one another's potential, so I guess it would be commented on if RJ thought of it.

 

I'll reiterate that Cuendillar making doesn't seem to take a ton of the power to accomplish, it just requires the proper feel. I don't think Leane inverting that weave while also hiding channeling ability is indicative of her being that strong at least compared to other Aes Sedai, but it's not like there's much in the books to back that up. I also think the range of ability in Aes Sedai is pretty large (at least linearly), example being Daigian. The movers and shakers in Salidar might be closer to the top-tiers of Aes Sedai power level though, Luckers has a great point there.

[Graendals favourite]

The 11^2 come from that I thought the correlation in question might not be linear, as in your example, but that if that starts to seem strained, then it might be a sign that there is a more complicated correlation. Simple is of course best if it works, I was just going about altering it in case it is necessary.

 

I'm just wondering about what does it mean that someone is X strong in the power? Does it directly mean that they can hold X amount of the power or perform X amount of things with the power?

 

So I make the hypothesis, that actually being X strong means you can hold A*X^2 amount of the power, where A is some constant, if pi then the strength would correspond to the radius of a circle and the amount the person can hold to its area.

 

If the hypothesis holds, a constant decrease in the amount of the power one can hold entails a significantly smaller decrease in strength for a stronger channeller than a weaker, also in absolute terms.

 

So in the above, roundabout, Lanfear went from 100 to 90 while Siuan went from 50 to 25 while both lost the same amount of power-holding capacity. This with a parabolical dependence rather than the linear one you used. There may be some conflict to the linking here, though, or then that too is more complicated.

[Thor]

Yeah' date=' it seems that the physical genetic component is as simple as an on/off switch, with strength and gender channeled determined by the soul. So a male soul (like Balthamel's) could use a female body's genetic component (the "on/off" switch) and still channel the male half at the soul's previous Power-level.[/quote']

 

That's really debatable. You can also say that the soul determines whether or not you can channel and the expression of genes determines your strength. Really, we don't know anything about channelling so we should stop speculating (and it's not even important anyways).

 

I'm for the Finns did it as payment.

[RobertAlexWillis]

That's really debatable. You can also say that the soul determines whether or not you can channel and the expression of genes determines your strength. Really, we don't know anything about channelling so we should stop speculating (and it's not even important anyways).

 

You could say that, except that the others who have been recycled came semm to have come back at their previous strength. I think it unlikely that even the Dark One managed to turn up several bodies of people who could channel at the level of Forsaken, just at the right time. Plus, a female wouldn't have the strength genes for saidin, so how strong would Halima be? The observed successful gender transfer of Balthamel to Halima severely limits the role that genetics can play.

[Guest cwestervelt]

In The Great Hunt Chapter 18' date=' Siuan picks Nynaeve up with the power (1st weave), while holding Egwene immobile (2nd weave), and prepares to tan Nynaeve's hide (3rd weave). Sure, neither Egwene or Nynaeve are trained yet, but she is lifting someone while splitting her flows at least 3 ways. Then, after she is healed, when she tries to lift Garyth Bryne, she completely fails to budge him while directing all of her power into that single weave. Quote:

Lord of Chaos Chapter 30: To Heal Again, Page 426 (Hardcover).

Just to drive it home, she embraced saidar -- that missed sweetness was so wonderful, she shivered -- wrapped him in flows of Air, and lifted him. Tried to lift him. Gaping, she drew more, tried harder, until the sweetness stabbed like a thousand hooks. His boots never stirred from the floor.

[/quote']

 

Yeah, i like where you end that quote, rather then going on to include the part where Suine goes on to comment that lifting someone with the power is one of the hardest things to achieve, or the fact that the linguistic progression shows that even she doesn't concider the inability to lift Gareth with a massive decrease.

Did you also like the fact that I saved you the need to explain how Siuan also used to be able to pick up about 3 times her own weight? It is right their where she talks about ho lifting something being one of the hardest things to do. Unless Gareth is a serverly obese, or Siuan in anorexic I doubt he would come in at much over 2 times Siuan's weight.

 

How bout another interesting point. In CoT Leane devides her weaves 3 ways also... wow, your right... she must really be massively weak.

 

At what point does she split her flows 3 ways? When they change the chain? That wouldn't require splitting flows. Unless you are going to start claiming that they hold the weaves for their disguises 24 x 7 when they use them.

 

Then, a little later in the same chapter, we get this from Leane when her and Siuan are trying to get her to redo the healing.

Quote:

If Nynaeve couldn't Heal us all the way the first time, maybe she'll only take us to two-thirds what we were, or half. Even that would be bettter than now, but still most here would be as strong, and a good many stronger.

 

Hoping that a second healing would get them to 50% of there original strength? So much for the loss of power being minor when a woman does the healing.

 

That reads to me as the missing amount. Essentially she is hoping to recover two thirds of what she lost, or half, not get returned to two thirds her original strength. The simple fact is that this is proven by the fact that if Suine was reduced by more then half of her full power then she would be innefectual... Her strength would fall below the cut off standard for Aes Sedai, and that is far from being the case.

 

In any case the reduction in strength is static, not comprable. They don't lose half their power as it stands individually, they lose a set amount. a loss of 10% to someone at 40% is infinitely more dramatic then a loss of 10% to someone at 100%

 

So your saying that a Healing by a woman that would likely result in Lanfear being less than half of her original strength would still leave her stronger than Graendal is a likely occurance? Lanfear was and still is immensely powerful, but I really doubt she was that powerful. Even though she thought she was a god, I really don't think she would have qualified as the demi-god that would require her to have been. What the heck would she need with Angreal and Sa'angreal at that point? She could have crushed anyone else easily, even if the other person was using one.

 

Well firstly, Lanfear didn't lose half her power, they both lost between 5% and 10%, its just for Suine that represent a much larger amount of her strength then it does for Lanfear.

 

Again, not even Suine could have lost over half her strength. Sorry buddy.

 

"If Nynaeve couldn't Heal us all the way the first time, maybe she'll only take us to two-thirds what we were, or half." That pretty much says right out that they are still less than 1/2 of what they were before being Stilled. Else half of what they were wouldn't be better than what they are now. So we have the only reliable sources concerning the strength loss claiming that they are less than 50% of her former strength. That just doesn't fit with the relatively minor strength loss that Lanfear has. Which is highly indicative of Lanfear not having had the same stilled/healed experience. You may not like it, but the books don't support you.

 

Anyway, I should know better than to try and disprove people with an entirely unsupported pet theory. I can give textual evidence that the result of Stilling/Healing by a woman is less than 50% of the persons original strength. Your best counter is that since Lanfear didn't lose that much, Siuan and Leane couldn't have. Nice. Claim an unfounded assumption as proof to attempt to disprove a qualifiable fact. Real nice. :roll:

 

This is a waste of my time...