Moiraine's Eelfinn requests - ALL SPOILERS ALLOWED

[Neophyte]

About Lanfear? How could she possibly have? Her possible sources are libraries in Tear and Cairhien and the terangreal in Rhuidean. I know Aes Sedai aren't very popular in Tear but I doubt they'd deny access to one for their royal library. Cairhienin should simply consider themselves lucky that White Tower don't commandeer their entire library. It's not beyond them. And Rhuidean, well there is not much history to go through there. I just don't see Moiraine learning much about Lanfear specifically.

 

I forgot her three questions from Aelfinn. She may have learned something from them.

 

I'll skip over the fact that you named at least four sources of possible information, and go right the bolded statement. Why do you assume there is not much history to go through there? Moiraine spent days poking around in the those ruins pretty much before the Aiel moved back in. The people who built and then hid that city were the last true Aiel, accompanied by ancient Aes Sedai - the people most likely, at the time, to have good information on the Age of Legends. And the city hasn't been conquered, burned, resettled, or otherwise disturbed in over 2000 years. The Aiel were already established as warrior clans by the time the Trolloc Wars came along. So, why wouldn't there be something in Rhuidean that could give her insight?

[The Fisher King]

And she spent time going through all Adeleas and Vandene's stuff too and they had a LOT of information at their disposal.

 

 

Fish

[Amandera]

About Lanfear? How could she possibly have? Her possible sources are libraries in Tear and Cairhien and the terangreal in Rhuidean. I know Aes Sedai aren't very popular in Tear but I doubt they'd deny access to one for their royal library. Cairhienin should simply consider themselves lucky that White Tower don't commandeer their entire library. It's not beyond them. And Rhuidean, well there is not much history to go through there. I just don't see Moiraine learning much about Lanfear specifically.

 

I forgot her three questions from Aelfinn. She may have learned something from them.

 

I'll skip over the fact that you named at least four sources of possible information, and go right the bolded statement. Why do you assume there is not much history to go through there? Moiraine spent days poking around in the those ruins pretty much before the Aiel moved back in. The people who built and then hid that city were the last true Aiel, accompanied by ancient Aes Sedai - the people most likely, at the time, to have good information on the Age of Legends. And the city hasn't been conquered, burned, resettled, or otherwise disturbed in over 2000 years. The Aiel were already established as warrior clans by the time the Trolloc Wars came along. So, why wouldn't there be something in Rhuidean that could give her insight?

Because there is nothing to indicate that there is any knowledge of interest there. People started to live there after Rand and co left the place. My assumption is if Moiraine had found a secret library there, so would Aiel. Well, it's never been mentioned in the books. RJ is huge about foreshadowing, I don't think it's his style to just create a source of knowledge that has never been mentioned. Wise Ones seem to be in contact with the Waste, I believe if there was something to find in Rhuidean, there'd be subtle hints, like when the Wise Ones are talking to one another or some such.

 

And she spent time going through all Adeleas and Vandene's stuff too and they had a LOT of information at their disposal.

 

 

Fish

That's too much credit to Vandene and Adeleas I think. Yes, they have a lot of information, but is that information different than that exists in anywhere else? There is mention in that POV of a "Santhra's book on the Forsaken". Otherwise Moiraine are looking into Seanchan, Trolloc Wars, Prophecies and the Horn of Valere. Nothing else mentioned about the Forsaken except for a book that has a sound of some renown to it. If it was very obscure why not say "here is a book that we found about the Forsaken"? Instead Vandene makes it sound like it's a book from a famous author.

 

You have to consider this age was a product of many violent events. People went from hovercrafts to horses, there will not be much to find in the world. I strongly believe whatever information Moiraine will reveal will come from the Finn and nowhere else.

[Clouded]

Has the seventh Seal been found? I remember Rand wondering where it was, but haven't finished my reread yet.

 

My guess is this is one of the things she asks for. What better place to hide a seal, than with a bunch of hoarders on another world?

 

Edit: Oops, guess it's been found. My bad, for failing to use my resources.

[MasterAblar]

Has the seventh Seal been found? I remember Rand wondering where it was, but haven't finished my reread yet.

 

My guess is this is one of the things she asks for. What better place to hide a seal, than with a bunch of hoarders on another world?

 

Yes, Rand has the last three, although he doesn't know that Elayne and Nyneave found one in Tarabon or that it broke.

[ArveduiEreinion]

Here's my thoughts:

 

1. How do you use the One Power to heal death? (or some variation on this...getting to the question of how Rand can be brought back to life after TG)

2. How can the Dragon Reborn defeat the Dark One at Tarmon Gaidon?

3. How should Randland deal with the Seanchan?

[mjasghar786]

J/k question

Do I look fat in this dress?

Sorry but my wife asks that question all the time lol

[thisguy]

Here's my thoughts:

 

1. How do you use the One Power to heal death? (or some variation on this...getting to the question of how Rand can be brought back to life after TG)

2. How can the Dragon Reborn defeat the Dark One at Tarmon Gaidon?

3. How should Randland deal with the Seanchan?

Personally, I thin

Here's my thoughts:

 

1. How do you use the One Power to heal death? (or some variation on this...getting to the question of how Rand can be brought back to life after TG)

2. How can the Dragon Reborn defeat the Dark One at Tarmon Gaidon?

3. How should Randland deal with the Seanchan?

Personally, I think Randland can kick the crap out of the Seanchan now if they didn't have to worry about Tarmon Gaidon. The BT, the Aiel and the combined strength of Andor, Illian and Tear (not to mention the Borderlands) could defeat them, in my opinion. Especially since their homeland is in turmoil at the moment.

[Neophyte]

Here's my thoughts:

 

1. How do you use the One Power to heal death? (or some variation on this...getting to the question of how Rand can be brought back to life after TG)

2. How can the Dragon Reborn defeat the Dark One at Tarmon Gaidon?

3. How should Randland deal with the Seanchan?

Personally, I thin

Here's my thoughts:

 

1. How do you use the One Power to heal death? (or some variation on this...getting to the question of how Rand can be brought back to life after TG)

2. How can the Dragon Reborn defeat the Dark One at Tarmon Gaidon?

3. How should Randland deal with the Seanchan?

Personally, I think Randland can kick the crap out of the Seanchan now if they didn't have to worry about Tarmon Gaidon. The BT, the Aiel and the combined strength of Andor, Illian and Tear (not to mention the Borderlands) could defeat them, in my opinion. Especially since their homeland is in turmoil at the moment.

 

If order is restored at home, however, with gateways the Seanchan would have a massive advantage. The Seanchan continent is much larger, and it is used to being unified, plus whatever chaos is going on over there is likely to be less destructive than the actual Last Battle.

[Sentinel78]

Let's see... she went thru the doorway grappling with Lanfear, it's possible she got some of her memories, ala Rand and Moridin, by having thier channeling (or just holding the source) cross wires. So that would be the memories. We might surmise one of her questions was how to get Rand to trust her, hence the bedding him would be disasterace. I personally feel one of her questions was how can he survive. Her actions, at times, would seem to indicate differently, but I think she genuinly cares for him/them. Being thrust into a role not of his choosing. She does show affection for Thom, which some think was not there before, but remember after Whitebridge when Rand tells her Thom died, she sort of has a " Oh, I don't think so" attitude. She cares but at this point she's all business.Then her last question might have been how to defeat the DO. Being the fighter she is I don't think sealing him back up would be in her nature. Defeat ! Victory, there is no second !

 

To my knowledge, we have no evidence that the Finns can retrieve memories related to past events. What we know is that they can record memories (after Finn contact), they can see the future to some extent and they can insert recorded memories into the brains of other people. However, they do not appear to have a "download" ability. Mat makes a point that his memories are only of adults (no memories of children), so presumably these are adults that went through one of the redstone ter'angreal to Finnland, which is how he concluded they have a similar link to him (i.e., monitoring and recording his current, ongoing thoughts, but not his already-stored long-term memory).

 

I liked that idea at first (Moiraine: "I want to know everything Lanfear knows about the Bore"), but we don't have any evidence the Finns can accomplish a retrieval of Lanfear's long-term memories, and we also do not even know if Moiraine knew that Lanfear had anything to do with the Bore (so why would she ask for Lanfear's memories / knowledge?). We learned that from Rand's Rhuidean walkthrough, which Moiraine did not go through.

[thisguy]

Here's my thoughts:

 

1. How do you use the One Power to heal death? (or some variation on this...getting to the question of how Rand can be brought back to life after TG)

2. How can the Dragon Reborn defeat the Dark One at Tarmon Gaidon?

3. How should Randland deal with the Seanchan?

Personally, I thin

Here's my thoughts:

 

1. How do you use the One Power to heal death? (or some variation on this...getting to the question of how Rand can be brought back to life after TG)

2. How can the Dragon Reborn defeat the Dark One at Tarmon Gaidon?

3. How should Randland deal with the Seanchan?

Personally, I think Randland can kick the crap out of the Seanchan now if they didn't have to worry about Tarmon Gaidon. The BT, the Aiel and the combined strength of Andor, Illian and Tear (not to mention the Borderlands) could defeat them, in my opinion. Especially since their homeland is in turmoil at the moment.

 

If order is restored at home, however, with gateways the Seanchan would have a massive advantage. The Seanchan continent is much larger, and it is used to being unified, plus whatever chaos is going on over there is likely to be less destructive than the actual Last Battle.

No, doubt. Even without the gateways, a unified Seanchan might not be stopped.

[Aulduron]

Egwene showed us that linked circles beat adams.

[Neophyte]

Let's see... she went thru the doorway grappling with Lanfear, it's possible she got some of her memories, ala Rand and Moridin, by having thier channeling (or just holding the source) cross wires. So that would be the memories. We might surmise one of her questions was how to get Rand to trust her, hence the bedding him would be disasterace. I personally feel one of her questions was how can he survive. Her actions, at times, would seem to indicate differently, but I think she genuinly cares for him/them. Being thrust into a role not of his choosing. She does show affection for Thom, which some think was not there before, but remember after Whitebridge when Rand tells her Thom died, she sort of has a " Oh, I don't think so" attitude. She cares but at this point she's all business.Then her last question might have been how to defeat the DO. Being the fighter she is I don't think sealing him back up would be in her nature. Defeat ! Victory, there is no second !

 

To my knowledge, we have no evidence that the Finns can retrieve memories related to past events. What we know is that they can record memories (after Finn contact), they can see the future to some extent and they can insert recorded memories into the brains of other people. However, they do not appear to have a "download" ability. Mat makes a point that his memories are only of adults (no memories of children), so presumably these are adults that went through one of the redstone ter'angreal to Finnland, which is how he concluded they have a similar link to him (i.e., monitoring and recording his current, ongoing thoughts, but not his already-stored long-term memory).

 

I liked that idea at first (Moiraine: "I want to know everything Lanfear knows about the Bore"), but we don't have any evidence the Finns can accomplish a retrieval of Lanfear's long-term memories, and we also do not even know if Moiraine knew that Lanfear had anything to do with the Bore (so why would she ask for Lanfear's memories / knowledge?). We learned that from Rand's Rhuidean walkthrough, which Moiraine did not go through.

 

One book ago, we had no knowledge that the Eelfinn could drain a person's ability to channel the One Power, either. Moiraine's description is as follows (from TSR ch 15, after both she and Mat have gone through - the emphasis is added):

 

“Sensations, emotions, experiences. They rummage through them; you can feel them doing it, making your skin crawl.

 

Opening the Bore certainly would be an experience ...

 

What I'm saying is that we don't know all their limits, but given what we already do know that they can do, exchanging or sharing memories among people whom they hold is not much of a stretch at all.

[thisguy]

Egwene showed us that linked circles beat adams.

Sure, in terms of pure magic. But, the Seanchan have numbers on their side - both in terms of channelers and in terms of soldier. Also, in terms of common people. Many Randlandians won't want to kill settlers. The best way to destroy or subvert a civilization is to take away its customs, traditions and language and replace it with your own.

[ArveduiEreinion]

Egwene showed us that linked circles beat adams.

Sure, in terms of pure magic. But, the Seanchan have numbers on their side - both in terms of channelers and in terms of soldier. Also, in terms of common people. Many Randlandians won't want to kill settlers. The best way to destroy or subvert a civilization is to take away its customs, traditions and language and replace it with your own.

 

More to the point, the Aes Sedai oaths would need to be modified in order to combat the Seanchan. Perhaps the White Tower would see the threat as great enough but Aviendha's vision of the Aiel future seems to indicate otherwise. My guess is that by the time the Aes Sedai saw the Seanchan as a threat great enough to require modifying the oaths it would be too late. The Asha'man would face tactical difficulties confronting the Seanchan. Indeed, we have already seen them in battle versus the Seanchan and know the outcome could be a close run thing. They had surprise on their side, initially. They have since lost that element as well as the tactical advantage of travelling. Further disadvantages would include the lack of a supporting force at their command for added protection and holding territory. The list could go on.

[MasterAblar]

Egwene showed us that linked circles beat adams.

Sure, in terms of pure magic. But, the Seanchan have numbers on their side - both in terms of channelers and in terms of soldier. Also, in terms of common people. Many Randlandians won't want to kill settlers. The best way to destroy or subvert a civilization is to take away its customs, traditions and language and replace it with your own.

 

More to the point, the Aes Sedai oaths would need to be modified in order to combat the Seanchan. Perhaps the White Tower would see the threat as great enough but Aviendha's vision of the Aiel future seems to indicate otherwise. My guess is that by the time the Aes Sedai saw the Seanchan as a threat great enough to require modifying the oaths it would be too late. The Asha'man would face tactical difficulties confronting the Seanchan. Indeed, we have already seen them in battle versus the Seanchan and know the outcome could be a close run thing. They had surprise on their side, initially. They have since lost that element as well as the tactical advantage of travelling. Further disadvantages would include the lack of a supporting force at their command for added protection and holding territory. The list could go on.

 

Not holding a territory might actually be an advantage. It allows them to go underground. And since the damane can't detect their channelling, they could rain hell on the Seanchan. A weave to change one's appearance, a weave to hide themselves like Rand used to hide Egwene. Seriously there's some massive destructive potential if they just get a little creative. Of course if the Seanchan manage to leash male channellers, things get a little complicated.

[Aulduron]

If Egwene were to use the resources around her properly, she could nearly neutralize the damane. Matt, Joline and Edesina know where some barracks are, as do the Suldam who just arrived. Proper spying could find more. At least spies should hear that all damane are being brought back to Ebou Dar.

 

She should organize the AS, WO and WF to form circles, and open gateways right into known barracks. Then they step through, with soldiers and warders, take all the damane, using anti-eavesdropping weaves and bring them back. Unleash any woman from Randland and they should know where more barracks are located. Wash, rinse, repeat. Done perfectly, they shouldn't have to kill anyone. If they do, well that's what the soldiers warders are for.

 

They won't get them all, but they should get enough Seanchan damane to arrange a prisoner swap to get the rest.

[MasterAblar]

If Egwene were to use the resources around her properly, she could nearly neutralize the damane. Matt, Joline and Edesina know where some barracks are, as do the Suldam who just arrived. Proper spying could find more. At least spies should hear that all damane are being brought back to Ebou Dar.

 

She should organize the AS, WO and WF to form circles, and open gateways right into known barracks. Then they step through, with soldiers and warders, take all the damane, using anti-eavesdropping weaves and bring them back. Unleash any woman from Randland and they should know where more barracks are located. Wash, rinse, repeat. Done perfectly, they shouldn't have to kill anyone. If they do, well that's what the soldiers warders are for.

 

They won't get them all, but they should get enough Seanchan damane to arrange a prisoner swap to get the rest.

 

Not to mention they can also use the Dream World to locate damane quarters.

[Amandera]

Light-side needs to start using assassinations. Unleash chaos by sending Warders through gateways to kill every single member of the Blood, then sweep in with an overwhelming force of channelers and soldiers. Possibilities with OP are enormous. I think Aridhol had it right.

 

Wishful thinking in the world of WoT though.

[mjasghar786]

That would be a nuclear option and you'd get reciprocal gating in of tons of blood knives and suicide pairings of suldam and damane - like in RL govs avoid that stuff

Circles are definitely better though as the major thing abou AS and others is that the channeller is also the decision maker - giving that crucial edge in reaction time and strategy whilst damane are shown as more point and click and often a danger to their own side

[mjasghar786]

I would agree that if rand land could start creating weapon terangreal usable by nonchannies that would help as seanchan are v reluctant to even be Healed ; btw another advantage in any war if attrition

[ArveduiEreinion]

Egwene showed us that linked circles beat adams.

Sure, in terms of pure magic. But, the Seanchan have numbers on their side - both in terms of channelers and in terms of soldier. Also, in terms of common people. Many Randlandians won't want to kill settlers. The best way to destroy or subvert a civilization is to take away its customs, traditions and language and replace it with your own.

 

More to the point, the Aes Sedai oaths would need to be modified in order to combat the Seanchan. Perhaps the White Tower would see the threat as great enough but Aviendha's vision of the Aiel future seems to indicate otherwise. My guess is that by the time the Aes Sedai saw the Seanchan as a threat great enough to require modifying the oaths it would be too late. The Asha'man would face tactical difficulties confronting the Seanchan. Indeed, we have already seen them in battle versus the Seanchan and know the outcome could be a close run thing. They had surprise on their side, initially. They have since lost that element as well as the tactical advantage of travelling. Further disadvantages would include the lack of a supporting force at their command for added protection and holding territory. The list could go on.

 

Not holding a territory might actually be an advantage. It allows them to go underground. And since the damane can't detect their channelling, they could rain hell on the Seanchan. A weave to change one's appearance, a weave to hide themselves like Rand used to hide Egwene. Seriously there's some massive destructive potential if they just get a little creative. Of course if the Seanchan manage to leash male channellers, things get a little complicated.

 

You're suggesting a losing insurgency strategy. Remember, the goal of an insurgency is to make an occupying force think that holding territory/continuing to prosecute a war is untenable. Recent (real world) history aside, an occupying force can react in very unpleasant ways to destroy insurgents and anyone sheltering them. I don't think the Seanchan would oblige.

 

Also, I would remember one of Mat's musings in KoD: the best plan falls apart after the first arrow is launched. Your opponent, if he has a brain in his head, will adapt. We know that is a core strength of the Seanchan forces in Randland. So, what you suggest is not impossible but any first attack would have to be decisive. If it's not, you've just lost another tactical advantage. Finally, any general worth his salt would ask "what would I do" when considering his enemy's strategy. A strike on damane kennels would be obvious, especially after the raid on the White Tower (not just the raiding tactic, but also thinking along the lines of a rescue and striking the enemies most valuable asset). The best way to counter such an attack would be to spread out the damane and training facilities. As I noted above, this would make a decisive strike less likely without bloody good intelligence/resources to back up the operation.

[MasterAblar]

You're suggesting a losing insurgency strategy. Remember, the goal of an insurgency is to make an occupying force think that holding territory/continuing to prosecute a war is untenable. Recent (real world) history aside, an occupying force can react in very unpleasant ways to destroy insurgents and anyone sheltering them. I don't think the Seanchan would oblige.

 

But the problem is Asha'man, once they take off their coats, are near impossible distinguish from regular men. And with travelling they can be from Tarabon to Shienar in an instant. The Seanchan would have no way of knowing who is sheltering them. It's not as if the Asha'man would stay in the occupied territories. They come in, destroy, and get out. How do the Seanchan track them? How do they locate them?

 

It's basically guerrilla warfare, except with instant teleportation. A nightmare for the opposing force.

 

Also, I would remember one of Mat's musings in KoD: the best plan falls apart after the first arrow is launched. Your opponent, if he has a brain in his head, will adapt. We know that is a core strength of the Seanchan forces in Randland. So, what you suggest is not impossible but any first attack would have to be decisive. If it's not, you've just lost another tactical advantage. Finally, any general worth his salt would ask "what would I do" when considering his enemy's strategy. A strike on damane kennels would be obvious, especially after the raid on the White Tower (not just the raiding tactic, but also thinking along the lines of a rescue and striking the enemies most valuable asset). The best way to counter such an attack would be to spread out the damane and training facilities. As I noted above, this would make a decisive strike less likely without bloody good intelligence/resources to back up the operation.

 

How do the Seanchan retaliate though? They can minimize losses by spreading out the targets, but how do they strike back, when the opposition has no "home base"? The only way I can think of for the Seanchan to adapt is for them to get their own male channellers.

[ArveduiEreinion]

But the problem is Asha'man, once they take off their coats, are near impossible distinguish from regular men. And with travelling they can be from Tarabon to Shienar in an instant. The Seanchan would have no way of knowing who is sheltering them. It's not as if the Asha'man would stay in the occupied territories. They come in, destroy, and get out. How do the Seanchan track them? How do they locate them?

 

It's basically guerrilla warfare, except with instant teleportation. A nightmare for the opposing force.

 

I don't see that we are disagreeing. Guerilla warfare/insurgency is not a winning strategy in and of itself. The opposing force must withdraw. As for how they adapt, I think the answer comes in time. Your enemy cannot destroy you without a change in tactics. The Seanchan simply would have to weather the storm. Moreover, you do not care about every piece of land under your control, just particular targets depending on the enemy's tactics. So, for example, you disperse damane to lessen the impact of any particular strike on a kennel/training facility. Also, you know that a bracelet can be made that will allow control over male channelers. The Seanchan currently lack that ability but, with intelligence work, they could figure that that Aes Sedai have learned to remake ter'angreal. With time, your highest priority would be seizing such persons in order to get them to manufacture male a'dam.

 

In other words, you adapt and survive.

 

How do the Seanchan retaliate though? They can minimize losses by spreading out the targets, but how do they strike back, when the opposition has no "home base"? The only way I can think of for the Seanchan to adapt is for them to get their own male channellers.

 

 

One method of retaliation is simply to deny your enemy a safe haven. In this scenario, the Seanchan would have a similar problem to the United States in Afghanistan. That is, you are right to say the Asha'man would have a safe haven so long as the Seanchan would not invade the territory they use as safe harbors. However, with a tactical advantage (large amounts of male a'dam), the Seanchan may reconsider a war of conquest.

 

Building up to that point would actually be beneficial. First, you would have time to gain reinforcements from Seanchan if such reinforcements were possible. Second, you would have time to train and incorporate local forces into your army. Third, you would scour every village under your control looking for damane to use in battle. Finally, you would gain time to gather intelligence on your enemies. That might very well include a method by which the Seanchan incorporate male channelers into their forces if only for the purpose of learning how males test other males for the ability.

[MountaineerWV]

Moiraine could have found info on Lanfear from the Aiel. The Wise Ones and the Chiefs have all lived out their ancestor's lives. The lineage becomes more narrow the further in the past the Aiel vision. One of Rand's ancestors served Lanfear and knew that she had a hand in opening the Bore. I'm sure that many Aiel directly served Lanfear or knew what happened when she created the Bore.

 

We may not have read about it in the books, but the Aiel may have had a surprising amount of information on Lanfear and imparted it to Moiraine.

 

I like the idea that Moiraine was given insight into the nature of the Bore and will appear at the last minute to help Rand. This fits in very well with Min's both Min's viewing that Rand needs Moiraine to win and that Moiraine will be one of the two female that Rand takes with him to face the DO.

 

On a side note, If Moiraine and Nyn go with Rand to face the DO, then I don't see how anyone can argue they are NOT Heroes of the Horn. They are facing the freakin DARK ONE with the Dragon in the Last Battle!