Egwene will die

[thisguy]

Ambition is fine. Ambition that results in other people getting hurt and acting like a colossal hypocrite is not so fine.

 

Like I said, I'm new here and not entirely caught up on prevalent opinions on this forum - who, exactly, has Egwene hurt?

 

Pretty much nobody. She just has an attitude similar to Rand's where she starts to see her friends as objects to manipulate in her position of authority. She basically comes off as being a bitch who isn't loyal to her friends and uses people for her own motives. Rand gets a pass on this because hes going insane, is under intense pressure to save the world, and we see some screen time with him showing him to actually be loyal to his friends. Egwene doesn't get the tender moment screen time and has no madness as an excuse so everyone just writes her off as being a bad person.

 

I don't actually disagree with that, mostly. Except to note that this: "has no madness as an excuse" is kinda a big deal.

I actually think she's a bit worse than Rand. At least, in regards to how she treats Nynaeve - no one else. Until Rand totally goes insane with Tam (all right - through book 9, at least), his real friends do get used by him but he doesn't hurt them. You can say he did that to Perrin but they were both in on the deception.

[Zewe]

Zewe, why not try to understand the other side instead of reflexively asserting that everything egwene does is amazing? She was an amazing bully in the scene. You can argue it was so she could teach a lesson (despite that teaching not being asked for and despite egwenes own thoughts that it was to distract), but your insistence on denying even the basic issues in this scene make your other critiques and thoughts invalid.

 

I don't think everything Egwene does is amazing; I've never even implied as much. I'm pretty sure one of the first posts I made in this thread was something to the effect of "I don't agree with a good bit of what she does," in fact.

 

"He" is also a new posting name, but not a new poster.

 

Forgive me if I'm assuming too much, but are you referring to me here? I am indeed a new poster. I've lurked these forums for years, but I've only recently taken the time to join in.

 

Perhaps I was wrong. The content, syntax and tone of your posts is remarkably similar to someone who used to post here.

 

Whenever I join a new online community, I tend to default to overly-pompous/passive-aggressive and blindly instigate fights regarding social issues. I don't mean to, it just sort of happens.

[randsc]

Ambition is fine. Ambition that results in other people getting hurt and acting like a colossal hypocrite is not so fine.

 

Like I said, I'm new here and not entirely caught up on prevalent opinions on this forum - who, exactly, has Egwene hurt?

 

Pretty much nobody. She just has an attitude similar to Rand's where she starts to see her friends as objects to manipulate in her position of authority. She basically comes off as being a bitch who isn't loyal to her friends and uses people for her own motives. Rand gets a pass on this because hes going insane, is under intense pressure to save the world, and we see some screen time with him showing him to actually be loyal to his friends. Egwene doesn't get the tender moment screen time and has no madness as an excuse so everyone just writes her off as being a bad person.

 

I don't actually disagree with that, mostly. Except to note that this: "has no madness as an excuse" is kinda a big deal.

I actually think she's a bit worse than Rand. At least, in regards to how she treats Nynaeve - no one else. Until Rand totally goes insane with Tam (all right - through book 9, at least), his real friends do get used by him but he doesn't hurt them. You can say he did that to Perrin but they were both in on the deception.

 

Her motivations were, I agree, a bit worse, being at least occasionally tinged with self-interest where his are not. But the actual impact of his actions is worse. So how does that balance out? You can make the case either way. I was not a fan of Dark Rand.

[TreeJoe]

Maybe it's just me, but if you believe Rand is the Dragon Reborn, then perhaps you give him the benefit of the doubt that his plan to...ya know....battle the Dark One....might have some merit or at least be worthy of consideration.

 

Instead, Egwene said it was insane and immediately started working against it. She did not seek further audience with him, or ask him to explain his plan.

 

This is part of how I think Egwene will downfall. The second you start scheming against the Dragon, you've ascribed yourself to the dustbin of history... ;)

 

Seriously, I'm sure she'll be awesome in any number of ways in the last book, but she's on a path of destruction now.

[thisguy]

Ambition is fine. Ambition that results in other people getting hurt and acting like a colossal hypocrite is not so fine.

 

Like I said, I'm new here and not entirely caught up on prevalent opinions on this forum - who, exactly, has Egwene hurt?

 

Pretty much nobody. She just has an attitude similar to Rand's where she starts to see her friends as objects to manipulate in her position of authority. She basically comes off as being a bitch who isn't loyal to her friends and uses people for her own motives. Rand gets a pass on this because hes going insane, is under intense pressure to save the world, and we see some screen time with him showing him to actually be loyal to his friends. Egwene doesn't get the tender moment screen time and has no madness as an excuse so everyone just writes her off as being a bad person.

 

I don't actually disagree with that, mostly. Except to note that this: "has no madness as an excuse" is kinda a big deal.

I actually think she's a bit worse than Rand. At least, in regards to how she treats Nynaeve - no one else. Until Rand totally goes insane with Tam (all right - through book 9, at least), his real friends do get used by him but he doesn't hurt them. You can say he did that to Perrin but they were both in on the deception.

 

Her motivations were, I agree, a bit worse, being at least occasionally tinged with self-interest where his are not. But the actual impact of his actions is worse. So how does that balance out? You can make the case either way. I was not a fan of Dark Rand.

Well, if we're going to compare - he's got a bit more riding on him, that may be splitting hairs. But, he's found out he's an orphan, most probably going to die - even if he wins, and is psychically connected to a psychopath who the Devil has chosen as his number one minion. Egwene is just a hard working primadonna. there's a difference. ;)

[randsc]

I surrender! There's no way I'm going to let you draw me into defending Egwene. It's happened once before; I'm not very good at it.

[Zewe]

Maybe it's just me, but if you believe Rand is the Dragon Reborn, then perhaps you give him the benefit of the doubt that his plan to...ya know....battle the Dark One....might have some merit or at least be worthy of consideration.

 

Yes-men aren't the sort of people you need to surround yourself with when you intend to singlehandedly bring about Armageddon.

 

Instead, Egwene said it was insane and immediately started working against it. She did not seek further audience with him, or ask him to explain his plan.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Rand cut her off and just up and leave at the beginning of ToM? Just like popped up in the WT and was like "Hey, I'm gonna break all the Seals, see you in a month, bye!"

[Neophyte]

LOL ... well, this one took off ...

 

So, I don't actually care enough to go back through and deconstruct every post made during the last couple of hours while I was away from my desk. I'll just touch on a couple of high points:

 

@fionwe1987 - I'm fine continuing this elsewhere or not. I completely agree with you that some of these posts have gone well off into the land of hyperbole.

 

@zewe - On the whole, I think Egwene has developed into a strong leader. I believe I've said elsewhere (but if I haven't, then I'm saying it now) that her campaign of resistance against Elaida in the tower was a shining example of leadership, personal integrity, and deep commitment. However, none of those characteristics were present in the incident which is being discussed. Criticizing Egwene's assault of Nynaeve in Tel'aran'rhiod is not, by definition, female bashing or gynophobia.

And yes, I am applying my own (admittedly modern) sense of morality to the situation. Just as I do when I discuss the morality of chattel slavery, or feudal serfdom, or the equality of the sexes. But causing physical harm to another person has been considered a crime in most societies. What Egwene did is actually outside Tower law, if I have read it correctly - it was every bit as illegal (though not as egregious) as what Elaida did to her in TGS chapter 16. Drawing the blood of another initiate is, if I remember correctly, illegal even by their standards.

 

Which brings me to the people arguing that Egwene "just gave her the equivalent of a bad dream." Not so, either psychologically or physically. Physically, she drew blood, and Nynaeve was keenly aware that damage done to a human in T'A'R was also done to their physical bodies. She was reasonably in fear of genuine physical harm. So it was not "just a bad dream." Which was the point of the lesson.

 

Finally, to those who compare it to letting a child play with the cat in order to learn not to mess with cats - that's another false analogy. Egwene didn't stand passively by and just allow something to happen to Nynaeve. She deliberately created beings capable of doing real harm in the immediate act of doing that harm. A more accurate analogy might be throwing your child into a closet which you have filled with cats which you have already made angry. Egwene deliberately manufactured and ensured the visceral impact of a patently dangerous scenario.

[thisguy]

I surrender! There's no way I'm going to let you draw me into defending Egwene. It's happened once before; I'm not very good at it.

 

Hahaha!!! ;)

 

She annoys me but she is hard working. I'll give her that. :D

[thisguy]

Maybe it's just me, but if you believe Rand is the Dragon Reborn, then perhaps you give him the benefit of the doubt that his plan to...ya know....battle the Dark One....might have some merit or at least be worthy of consideration.

 

Yes-men aren't the sort of people you need to surround yourself with when you intend to singlehandedly bring about Armageddon.

 

Instead, Egwene said it was insane and immediately started working against it. She did not seek further audience with him, or ask him to explain his plan.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Rand cut her off and just up and leave at the beginning of ToM? Just like popped up in the WT and was like "Hey, I'm gonna break all the Seals, see you in a month, bye!"

He also told her where he'd be and if she has something to say to come there and tell him.

[Suttree]

Maybe it's just me, but if you believe Rand is the Dragon Reborn, then perhaps you give him the benefit of the doubt that his plan to...ya know....battle the Dark One....might have some merit or at least be worthy of consideration.

 

Instead, Egwene said it was insane and immediately started working against it. She did not seek further audience with him, or ask him to explain his plan.

 

This is part of how I think Egwene will downfall. The second you start scheming against the Dragon, you've ascribed yourself to the dustbin of history... ;)

 

Which is exactly what Rand provoked her into doing, so unless you think Rand's plan was to bring about her downfall then dustbin is premature to say the least. Further at this point there is an idea(no plan yet as he is waiting on Min for the answers), it would be hard to give him the benefit of the doubt considering he refused to fill her in on what is goin on. Further she certainly did ask him to explain.

 

ToM

"We must talk about this," she said. "Plan."

 

To which he gave a flippant response designed to "pour hot oil" into the WT. Now they in fact will have a further audience at the FoM so if Min has found the answers and Rand lays out a rational course of action I fully expect Egwene to listen. Given the fact that Rand played her and purposely antagonized the situation combined with him being insane shortly before she really had no other course but to question his actions. As mentioned above yes men are the last thing Rand needs around him. We are told early on the types he needs around.

 

Rand will need both of you in the days to come. You handle his temper well – though I may say your methods are unusual. He will need people who cannot be driven away or quelled by his rages, who will tell him what he must hear instead of what they think he wants to.”

“You do that, Moiraine,” Egwene told her.

 

- The Fires of Heaven, News Comes To Cairhien

[thisguy]

Maybe it's just me, but if you believe Rand is the Dragon Reborn, then perhaps you give him the benefit of the doubt that his plan to...ya know....battle the Dark One....might have some merit or at least be worthy of consideration.

 

Instead, Egwene said it was insane and immediately started working against it. She did not seek further audience with him, or ask him to explain his plan.

 

This is part of how I think Egwene will downfall. The second you start scheming against the Dragon, you've ascribed yourself to the dustbin of history... ;)

 

Which is exactly what Rand provoked her into doing, so unless you think Rand's plan was to bring about her downfall then dustbin is premature to say the least. Further at this point there is an idea(no plan yet as he is waiting on Min for the answers), it would be hard to give him the benefit of the doubt considering he refused to fill her in on what is goin on. Further she certainly did ask him to explain.

 

ToM

"We must talk about this," she said. "Plan."

 

To which he gave a flippant response designed to "pour hot oil" into the WT. Now they in fact will have a further audience at the FoM so if Min has found the answers and Rand lays out a rational course of action I fully expect Egwene to listen. Given the fact that Rand played her and purposely antagonized the situation combined with him being insane shortly before she really had no other course but to question his actions.

 

This is one thing about the books that gets to me: There are a bunch of instances where a little communication between parties might have helped. Nobody tells anybody about the cleansing of saidin. they basically just find out on their own. I mean after the fact.

You'd think Rand could have said, "By the way, Egwene, insane - not me. Nope. Not anymore. Tell her Min." The good guys almost never tell each other anything even when they can. I'm drawing a blank at the moment, but I'm sure that happens with the AS girls, too. Here's one: hey, Nyna, maybe you could pop into Egwene's dream, or at least send a pigeon, and tell her about saidin. OR, tell her that there was a female channeler using saidin at the cleansing.

[Damer Sedai]

I think RJ writes Egwene in a manner that clearly shows the advantages and pitfalls of a strong will in one who is driven and aspires to leadership. The Nynaeve encounter in tel'aran'rhiod was clearly on the surface a lesson for Nynaeve's benefit, but motivated by less than altruistic forces - both desire to distract from Egwene's own lies to the Wise Ones, and changing the power balance with a former mentor that sees Egwene as a child.

 

Egwene went too far, a moral low point, but not really that far out of bounds for Randland society as Aes Sedai lessons can be rather harsh. Clearly, nightmare creatures in tel'aran'rhiod are worse than simple bad dreams, and on the cruel side to boot, but the event, caused no lasting damage, had a clear purpose, and lasted no longer than necessary. It was almost a direct parallel as to how Amys provided Egwene with a pointed lesson in tel'aran'rhiod when she didn't show proper care, and while harsh it wasn't truly traumatic (and, in fact, not that effective in Egwene's case)

 

I like to think that Egwene learned the dangers of imposing ones will so forcefully on a friend in such a manner is both wrong and dangerous, as its not a tool she uses again and again, like a real bully would. Instead, as she progresses in Salidar she uses a lighter and lighter touch, while still getting her will enforced despite her limitations by the politics of the Hall. I was a little disappointed that in her inner PoV she seemed only interested the change in the balance of power, but I think her development can be infered by how she proceeded from that point on.

[TreeJoe]

Yeah, Nynaeve sharing things like:

 

- I can heal stilling

- I cleansed saidin along with the dragon reborn

- I can heal madness

 

These things are actually pertinent to reveal widely, even on the eve of TG....

[Fel]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Rand cut her off and just up and leave at the beginning of ToM? Just like popped up in the WT and was like "Hey, I'm gonna break all the Seals, see you in a month, bye!"

 

And, she spent that entire month using the vast resources of the White Tower to come up with alternate plans and to help advise the Dragon on how he could seal the bore effectively? No. She spent the time marshalling armies (which never really made any sense to me) to tie them to the White Tower. Of course, Rand's plan sounds mad to her. But, where does she try to find an alternative? Reality is unravelling and they need to do something (other than tying nations to the White Tower), but we don't see any thoughts at all in this regard.

 

I'll drop it because this is a very old argument that i saw here about 40 times before...

[Daniel Hill]

I'm still new here, but I've lurked on and off for years, and I've noticed Egwene-hate runs pretty strong in a lot of people here.

At the risk of digressing from the topic - why is that? She's always been one of my favorite characters, and even if I don't necessarily agree with everything she does, I still think she's quite likable, and, at the very least, makes for a good read. It's not like she's completely insufferable like Faile/Elayne/95% of Perrin ever.

[thisguy]

I think RJ writes Egwene in a manner that clearly shows the advantages and pitfalls of a strong will in one who is driven and aspires to leadership. The Nynaeve encounter in tel'aran'rhiod was clearly on the surface a lesson for Nynaeve's benefit, but motivated by less than altruistic forces - both desire to distract from Egwene's own lies to the Wise Ones, and changing the power balance with a former mentor that sees Egwene as a child.

 

Egwene went too far, a moral low point, but not really that far out of bounds for Randland society as Aes Sedai lessons can be rather harsh. Clearly, nightmare creatures in tel'aran'rhiod are worse than simple bad dreams, and on the cruel side to boot, but the event, caused no lasting damage, had a clear purpose, and lasted no longer than necessary. It was almost a direct parallel as to how Amys provided Egwene with a pointed lesson in tel'aran'rhiod when she didn't show proper care, and while harsh it wasn't truly traumatic (and, in fact, not that effective in Egwene's case)

 

I like to think that Egwene learned the dangers of imposing ones will so forcefully on a friend in such a manner is both wrong and dangerous, as its not a tool she uses again and again, like a real bully would. Instead, as she progresses in Salidar she uses a lighter and lighter touch, while still getting her will enforced despite her limitations by the politics of the Hall. I was a little disappointed that in her inner PoV she seemed only interested the change in the balance of power, but I think her development can be infered by how she proceeded from that point on.

 

You said this very well.

 

Beyond the fact that she did this to a friend (the Nyna TAR incident), it bothered me because she was subjugating someone to her will AFTER she had hers subjugated by the Seanchan. It's like she didn't learn the right lesson.

[thisguy]

Yeah, Nynaeve sharing things like:

 

- I can heal stilling

- I cleansed saidin along with the dragon reborn

- I can heal madness

 

These things are actually pertinent to reveal widely, even on the eve of TG....

Exactly! Nyna really deserves a monument... or someone to rub her feet or something. She also beat the hell out of Moghie. She's done quite a bit.

[TommyRocker]

Egwene loosed them. She's responsible for their existence. Whatever they do afterwards is certainly her fault. Victim blaming is disgusting at the best of times.

Egwene loosed two brutes on Nynaeve. Nynaeve, naturally, was filled with horror. As is the way of TAR, that horror only strengthened the apparitions and made them do exactly what Nynaeve feared. I'm not blaming Nynaeve. I'm saying that while you can blame Egwene for loosing the brutes, you can't blame her for what they did in response to Nynaeve's thoughts. Nynaeve's reaction is entirely natural, and hardly something anyone blames her for.

 

Actually, in most legal systems, you could blame Egwene for what they did. Since she deliberately created them, with the purpose of teaching Nynaeve a lesson, whether she specifically instructed them how to act or not she would be legally (and in my mind is morally) responsible for the results.

 

I'm not normally with the Egwene-haters, but this particular example was pretty egregious.

That's like saying that if I gave you some gasoline to emphasize its dangers, and you lit it on fire by accidentally throwing a match at it, I'm responsible for the fire. If you were a child, that would be true. But not otherwise.

 

That said, I do agree that this was a low point for Egwene. She's trying to get rid of Nynaeve's remaining yoke, and is coming to terms with her own growing strength of personality, and she went way too far. But it is also clear that this doesn't start a trend. Egwene realizes she no longer has to bow down to Nynaeve, and when she became Amyrlin, she could simply have reinforced that, but she didn't.

 

It is repeatedly stated that Nyn IS a child in T'A'R. Besides, it would be more akin to covering someone in gasoline, lighting the match, dropping it on them, then blaming them for being to terrified to remember to stop, drop, and roll.

[fionwe1987]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Rand cut her off and just up and leave at the beginning of ToM? Just like popped up in the WT and was like "Hey, I'm gonna break all the Seals, see you in a month, bye!"

 

And, she spent that entire month using the vast resources of the White Tower to come up with alternate plans and to help advise the Dragon on how he could seal the bore effectively? No. She spent the time marshalling armies (which never really made any sense to me) to tie them to the White Tower. Of course, Rand's plan sounds mad to her. But, where does she try to find an alternative? Reality is unravelling and they need to do something (other than tying nations to the White Tower), but we don't see any thoughts at all in this regard.

 

I'll drop it because this is a very old argument that i saw here about 40 times before...

When faced with a Prophesied savior possibly going mad or making a serious mistake at the very least, stopping him from doing crazy things is important. You don't have to come up with an alternative. You just stop him from doing crazy stuff, and hope that helps him find the sensible stuff. This is precisely what Egwene is doing.

[Suttree]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Rand cut her off and just up and leave at the beginning of ToM? Just like popped up in the WT and was like "Hey, I'm gonna break all the Seals, see you in a month, bye!"

 

And, she spent that entire month using the vast resources of the White Tower to come up with alternate plans and to help advise the Dragon on how he could seal the bore effectively? No. She spent the time marshalling armies (which never really made any sense to me) to tie them to the White Tower. Of course, Rand's plan sounds mad to her. But, where does she try to find an alternative? Reality is unravelling and they need to do something (other than tying nations to the White Tower), but we don't see any thoughts at all in this regard.

 

I'll drop it because this is a very old argument that i saw here about 40 times before...

When faced with a Prophesied savior possibly going mad or making a serious mistake at the very least, stopping him from doing crazy things is important. You don't have to come up with an alternative. You just stop him from doing crazy stuff, and hope that helps him find the sensible stuff. This is precisely what Egwene is doing.

 

Not to mention Rand gave her nothing to work with. A cryptic phrase from Fel really means zero to those that don't have access to his materials.

[Neophyte]

I think RJ writes Egwene in a manner that clearly shows the advantages and pitfalls of a strong will in one who is driven and aspires to leadership. The Nynaeve encounter in tel'aran'rhiod was clearly on the surface a lesson for Nynaeve's benefit, but motivated by less than altruistic forces - both desire to distract from Egwene's own lies to the Wise Ones, and changing the power balance with a former mentor that sees Egwene as a child.

 

Egwene went too far, a moral low point, but not really that far out of bounds for Randland society as Aes Sedai lessons can be rather harsh. Clearly, nightmare creatures in tel'aran'rhiod are worse than simple bad dreams, and on the cruel side to boot, but the event, caused no lasting damage, had a clear purpose, and lasted no longer than necessary. It was almost a direct parallel as to how Amys provided Egwene with a pointed lesson in tel'aran'rhiod when she didn't show proper care, and while harsh it wasn't truly traumatic (and, in fact, not that effective in Egwene's case)

 

I like to think that Egwene learned the dangers of imposing ones will so forcefully on a friend in such a manner is both wrong and dangerous, as its not a tool she uses again and again, like a real bully would. Instead, as she progresses in Salidar she uses a lighter and lighter touch, while still getting her will enforced despite her limitations by the politics of the Hall. I was a little disappointed that in her inner PoV she seemed only interested the change in the balance of power, but I think her development can be infered by how she proceeded from that point on.

 

I agree with this almost entirely. The only part with which I disagree slightly is the idea that Egwene's actions were parallel to Amys'. First of all, Amys is more skilled in Tel'aran'rhiod at this point, and did not cause actual physical damage to Egwene. Second, Amys had the authority to impose this kind of punishment - authority gained because of greater skill and experience. So while Egwene might have rationalized her actions as being parallel to Amys', I don't think they actually were, though a portion of her intent might have been the same.

 

This might be comparable to a parent imposing a punishment on a sibling, then that sibling imposing the same punishment on another sibling. Not only does the parent have the authority, but the parent (presumably) has greater judgment and control.

 

It's a small, but I think important distinction. There is also the fact that Egwene agreed to accept the Wise Ones' tutelage and instruction - Nynaeve had not given Egwene similar consent.

 

And I strongly agree with your opening sentence. Autocratic style and even cruelty born of a lack of patience is a real danger for those with intelligence, power, and ambition. Egwene has grappled with those things at times (though thankfully, really deliberate cruelty hasn't been an issue for her) - and, on the whole, has been successful in overcoming those urges.

[Fel]

Reality is unravelling. The last battle is here. Forget rands plan. As head of the AS what is your plan to seal the bore? Tying nations to the white tower is not a plan to seal the bore

[Daniel Hill]

I have never hated Egwene. I love reading about her being awesome. The women being so powerfull and cool is something that surprised me when I started reading these books fifeteen years ago. It hurts and makes me sad but Egwene will be dead by the end of the next book. That is why I stated this thread. I don't like that she will die but she will.

 

[fionwe1987]

Reality is unravelling. The last battle is here. Forget rands plan. As head of the AS what is your plan to seal the bore? Tying nations to the white tower is not a plan to seal the bore

But that, according to Prophesy at least, is not her area. She can definitely give help sealing the Bore, discuss ideas for it, and her Aes Sedai can also help in planning for that, searching for knowledge on that, etc. But that was not the situation she faced. She faced a man who gave her an ultimatum essentially, and refused all discussion. A parallel plan without him won't help, because Prophesy basically ensures this plan won't work. Why waste time on that, when the important thing is to prevent the crazy plan from going through... one that the Pattern gave you warning about in your Dream at the precise moment Rand entered the Tower?