Big Demandred news

[Terez]

A post I made at TL:

 

Why Roedred

 

http://theoryland.yu...-be#reply-51305

 

Is this where the theory was first mentioned?

 

Doubtful.

 

PS—The theory probably originated after the release of TPOD, which means you'd have to dig in the rasfwrj archives to find it. (And many posts have gone missing, so that might be an impossible project.) So I wouldn't worry too much about who the first person to come up with it was; it's an old theory.

[balefired-ed2]

I wonder if now my pseudotheory geopolitical comparison will finally start holding weight:

 

Andor- France

Illian- Poland

Murandy- HRE

[Owayn The Traveller]

Anyone think Demandred's 'playthings' could be cannons?

[Luckers]

Maybe army level shocklances. Demandred was the one to note they can still be made at Shayol Ghul.

[dwn]

Maybe army level shocklances. Demandred was the one to note they can still be made at Shayol Ghul.

 

Huh. I was thinking of that about 2 minutes before reading your post. Any chance you could post that quote (or point me in the general direction)?

 

-- dwn

[Owayn The Traveller]

Maybe army level shocklances. Demandred was the one to note they can still be made at Shayol Ghul.

 

Surely one of the other Forsaken would have mentioned that, if it turned out he was producing them at Shayol Ghul. And there wouldn't be such mystery surrounding his actions.

[Luckers]

It's in Winter's Heart Chapter 13, Wonderful News. I don't have my books on me but I remember the reference because that is probably my favourite chapter in the series.

[dwn]

Thanks Luckers. The quote, for anyone who's interested is:

 

They could as soon make shocklances or sho-wings as a view-wall outside of this place, close to Shayol Ghul.

 

-- WH, Wonderful News, pp. 313-314

 

I previously never noticed the implication that such things could still be made close to Shayol Ghul. Perhaps there's more to Isam's town-o-cannibals than we've seen.

 

-- dwn

[Owayn The Traveller]

I don't think Moridin would put up with Demandred's demands if he was just making shocklances at Shayol Ghul.

[dwn]

I don't think Moridin would put up with Demandred's demands if he was just making shocklances at Shayol Ghul.

 

Yet it could make even a small army out of Murandy far more deadly. Or consider how a group of agents armed with the small shocklances that Asne Zeramene had could quickly and quietly take control of the Caemlyn waygate.

 

-- dwn

[Terez]

The implication is that you can make things in the same way you can make things in Tel'aran'rhiod.

[Owayn The Traveller]

I don't think Moridin would put up with Demandred's demands if he was just making shocklances at Shayol Ghul.

 

 

 

Yet it could make even a small army out of Murandy far more deadly. Or consider how a group of agents armed with the small shocklances that Asne Zeramene had could quickly and quietly take control of the Caemlyn waygate.

 

-- dwn

 

Not doubting the potential mayhem they might cause but once production has been started, anyone could take over.

Nor does producing weapons for the shadow give one much sway, only have to look at Aginor to see how he was treated and thought of.

 

 

[dwn]

I don't think Moridin would put up with Demandred's demands if he was just making shocklances at Shayol Ghul.

 

 

 

Yet it could make even a small army out of Murandy far more deadly. Or consider how a group of agents armed with the small shocklances that Asne Zeramene had could quickly and quietly take control of the Caemlyn waygate.

 

-- dwn

 

Not doubting the potential mayhem they might cause but once production has been started, anyone could take over.

Nor does producing weapons for the shadow give one much sway, only have to look at Aginor to see how he was treated and thought of.

 

Demandred is the Shadow's military genius, however. He, of any of the Chosen, could certainly put a small stockpile of such things to extremely good use.

 

In fairness, Terez may also have the right of it, though. It's not clear whether Demandred is referring to the T'A'R-esque nature of things near Shayol Ghul (which we've seen elsewhere), or to something more specific. I've always read the descriptions of that scene to imply the room was decked out with scrounged AoL tech, much like Sammael's inner sanctum, but it could go either way.

 

-- dwn

[NitroS]

Bit off topic: but will moridin arm the choson with the ter angreal angreal etc that he has collected over the years? or you think brandon will forgot to add that in? I still hope that the shadow gets hold of callandor and demandred/moridin use it with cyndane and moghedian.

[mauifranko78]

Well, it's two separate questions really.

1)Who is his alter ego??

2)What has he been up to??

 

1) we can answer with almost certainty as Terez points out.

2) we cannot answer with certainty, because we have been intentionally left in the dark. Much like Taim until Moridin told us.

 

But a lot of time has passed since he was released and AMOL. Certainly building up a Murandian army didn't occupy that entire time. What were his combined plans with Semirhage and Mesaana?? He had his hands in both places, but nothing was revealed of what HE was up to in regards to either when they fell. I think it is still very likely he has ties to the White Tower and the Seanchan. For all we know, maybe he is behind Sorilea and the freeing of Semirhage. There are a lot of loose end DF threads that "could" have his hands on it. Remember his primary mission for most of his time in the series, create chaos. So far the Seanchan empire is in ruins. The White Tower smashed and picking up the pieces. Caemlyn/Andor in ruins. Borderlands, overrun.

 

We'll just have to wait and see on #2, but he very likely could have his hands in any/all of that.

[MasterAblar]

Bit off topic: but will moridin arm the choson with the ter angreal angreal etc that he has collected over the years? or you think brandon will forgot to add that in? I still hope that the shadow gets hold of callandor and demandred/moridin use it with cyndane and moghedian.

 

I should hope he doesn't forget about it. He wrote it himself in ToM.

[Terez]

Well, it's two separate questions really.

1)Who is his alter ego??

2)What has he been up to??

 

1) we can answer with almost certainty as Terez points out.

2) we cannot answer with certainty, because we have been intentionally left in the dark. Much like Taim until Moridin told us.

 

But a lot of time has passed since he was released and AMOL. Certainly building up a Murandian army didn't occupy that entire time. What were his combined plans with Semirhage and Mesaana?? He had his hands in both places, but nothing was revealed of what HE was up to in regards to either when they fell. I think it is still very likely he has ties to the White Tower and the Seanchan. For all we know, maybe he is behind Sorilea and the freeing of Semirhage. There are a lot of loose end DF threads that "could" have his hands on it. Remember his primary mission for most of his time in the series, create chaos. So far the Seanchan empire is in ruins. The White Tower smashed and picking up the pieces. Caemlyn/Andor in ruins. Borderlands, overrun.

 

We'll just have to wait and see on #2, but he very likely could have his hands in any/all of that.

 

I doubt he had anything to do with the freeing of Semirhage; that one seemed like a joint effort between Moridin and Shaidar Haran. Leaving her in captivity was dangerous, especially since Cadsuane figured out how to break her. But Demandred wanted her free because the Seanchan were a part of his plans, even if it was just to keep them out of the way. I don't think he would have quite agreed to a plan designed to end in Semirhage's death.

 

I tend to see his plans focusing mostly on Caemlyn, which is not to say that he doesn't have a hand in a larger scheme with Shadowspawn attacks and whatnot. I think his main plan is to lure Elayne to Caemlyn and thus lure Rand, but I think he also plans to lure several armies. Did Elayne take the 10,000 Andoran late-comers with her to Merrilor, or are they still outside the city? The 10,000 mercenaries are still there, and Demandred has (as Roedran) shown a willingness to use mercenaries in the past, and he probably has no problem getting his hands on gold. I think the Legion and the Murandian army are each several times that size. Whatever Elayne brings, it probably won't be enough. And the dreamspike has the potential to make things that much more interesting.

[crazyrandisdead]

@Terez: So here's a question, since you seem to have put a lot of thought into this. Demandred was probably freed in TGH, along with most of the other Forsaken. Do you think he set himself up in Murandy from the get-go? Or was he doing something else, and changed plans after Rahvin was killed? I ask because, given that Rahvin had set himself up in Caemlyn, developing elaborate plans to sack the city probably wouldn't be a good use of his time. And given that, Murandy seems like a less attractive place to set up.

[Neophyte]

@Terez: So here's a question, since you seem to have put a lot of thought into this. Demandred was probably freed in TGH, along with most of the other Forsaken. Do you think he set himself up in Murandy from the get-go? Or was he doing something else, and changed plans after Rahvin was killed? I ask because, given that Rahvin had set himself up in Caemlyn, developing elaborate plans to sack the city probably wouldn't be a good use of his time. And given that, Murandy seems like a less attractive place to set up.

 

I'm pretty sure that Demandred would have no problem planning to sack Caemlyn, or Illian, or Tear, or any other place that one of his rivals had set up. The timing might have been different, but he'd go after them if he thought it could be done with no hesitation. Team Shadow was never really a team.

 

It was never likely that Murandy was his only project, anyway.

[Terez]

@Terez: So here's a question, since you seem to have put a lot of thought into this. Demandred was probably freed in TGH, along with most of the other Forsaken. Do you think he set himself up in Murandy from the get-go?

 

It's possible:

 

"Rooms," Moiraine said. "Yes. We will take rooms. The meal can wait. Ships. Nieda, what ships sail for Tear? Early on the morrow. I have that which I must do tonight." Lan glanced at her, frowning.

 

"For Tear, Mistress Mari?" Nieda laughed. "Why, none for Tear. The Nine did forbid any ship to sail for Tear a month gone now, nor any from Tear to call here, though I do think the Sea Folk pay it no mind. But there do be no Sea Folk ship in the harbor. It do be odd, that. The order of the Nine, I do mean, and the King silent on it, when he does always raise his voice if they but take a step without his lead. Or perhaps it be no that, exactly. All talk do be of war with Tear, but the boatmen and wagoneers who do carry supplies to the army do say the soldiers do all look north, to Murandy."

 

"The paths of the Shadow are tangled," Moiraine said in a tight voice. "We will do what we must. The rooms, Nieda. And then we will eat that meal."

 

But there's not a whole lot of evidence for it. It may be that he only set up in Murandy after the return of Moridin, when his authority at the Black Tower was essentially usurped, as Taim was no longer obliged to report to him. (Possibly because he was Ishamael's creation in the first place.) But Roedran's background is so murky, it may be that "Roedran" only came to power in Murandy after Demandred was freed. He wasn't named until TFOH, in the same breath as this:

 

In name, Lugard was the capital of Murandy, the seat of King Roedran, but lords in Murandy spoke the words of fealty, then refused to pay their taxes, or do much of anything else that Roedran wanted, and the people did the same. Murandy was a nation in name only, the people barely held together by supposed allegiance to the king or queen – the throne changed hands at sometimes short intervals – and fear that Andor or Illian might snap them up if they did not hold together in some fashion.

 

I ask because, given that Rahvin had set himself up in Caemlyn, developing elaborate plans to sack the city probably wouldn't be a good use of his time. And given that, Murandy seems like a less attractive place to set up.

 

I'm sure Demandred had a plan to do something about Rahvin; it was his Trio's MO, to target others of the Chosen and bring them down one by one until only they are left standing. Mesaana had a hand in Be'lal's demise, for example. Murandy was well-positioned to target either Andor or Illian, Sammael's lair. But I don't think Demandred's "elaborate plans" for Caemlyn began until LOC.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I'm sure Demandred had a plan to do something about Rahvin; it was his Trio's MO, to target others of the Chosen and bring them down one by one until only they are left standing. Mesaana had a hand in Be'lal's demise, for example. Murandy was well-positioned to target either Andor or Illian, Sammael's lair. But I don't think Demandred's "elaborate plans" for Caemlyn began until LOC.

 

Indeed, I agree.

 

Murandy is not synonymous with the Caemlyn attack. He could have planned the Caemlyn attack at any time without being in control of Murandy, and conversely Murandy could be occupied without direct plans to invade Andor. After all, it is Shadowspawn and possible mercenaries who are involved with the Caemlyn attack, not any major Murandian forces. Murandian armies are heading for the FoM.

 

Another point, I think that Roemandred rejected the White Tower and accepted Andor's Gateways to make sure most of the Kin were unavailable to help in Caemlyn. (plus whatever resources Elayne has expended to help Roemandred to FoM)