Caemlyn (FULL PROLOGUE SPOILERS)

[Suttree]

I call it how I see it. In terms of characters being made to act like an idiots to move the plot along, Sanderson is no worse than Jordan in my opinion.I can cite blatant examples from the first 11 books al day.

 

I get what you are saying and agree in parts. With the dumbing down Sanderson's penchant for making one person stupid to resolve a conflict bothers me far more. As does a lot of the less than subtle plot work. Again sticking to the point it beggars belief that this scenario even happened. I believe you have said much the same already.

[Ian Ohlander]

I don't blame BS or RJ and their writing style for this. Elayne has, any number of times, been shown to go haring off to do something stupid without any thought to disaster scenarios. The previous incident- her impersonation of a forsaken (which was actually quite brilliant, if she had informed others of the plan and made contingencies for anything that went wrong) wasn't that long ago. Even further back was her confrontation of the black sisters that resulted in the death of Vandene and Sareitha and her own capture- all because she trusted Min's viewing. Add to the butcher's bill the rescue attempt that cost the lives of 500 men and while she was sad about that, they are still dead. Her comments are:

 

"But a queen must be willing to accept the burden of letting others die in her name. We discussed this Birgitte. We decided that there was no way I could have known that Chesmal and the others woudl arrive as the did."

 

"We decided," Birgitte said through clenched teeth, "that there was no use arguing any further."

-TOM Chap 17.

 

Still unwilling to understand the need for backup plans and planning for the worst, something Birgitte apparently gets.

The resulting destruction of Caemlyn is only the latest and most horrific results of that attitude.

[Suttree]

I don't blame BS or RJ and their writing style for this. Elayne has, any number of times, been shown to go haring off to do something stupid without any thought to disaster scenarios. The previous incident- her impersonation of a forsaken (which was actually quite brilliant, if she had informed others of the plan and made contingencies for anything that went wrong) wasn't that long ago. Even further back was her confrontation of the black sisters that resulted in the death of Vandene and Sareitha and her own capture- all because she trusted Min's viewing. Add to the butcher's bill the rescue attempt that cost the lives of 500 men and while she was sad about that, they are still dead. Her comments are:

 

"But a queen must be willing to accept the burden of letting others die in her name. We discussed this Birgitte. We decided that there was no way I could have known that Chesmal and the others woudl arrive as the did."

 

"We decided," Birgitte said through clenched teeth, "that there was no use arguing any further."

-TOM Chap 17.

 

Still unwilling to understand the need for backup plans and planning for the worst, something Birgitte apparently gets.

The resulting destruction of Caemlyn is only the latest and most horrific results of that attitude.

 

Actually those other instances have been discussed in great detail already and have very little relation to the current incident. To take it further if Birgitte gets it as you say why would she, Morgase, or Dyelin have not said anything. The whole thing is about as ham fisted as a plot can get.

 

Just curious with the DF mission in WH what should she have done differently? She was working with little time, used all the resources at hand, neatly hamstrung the DF in her midst by having her and Vandene lead the circles and also had back up. It took bad timing which no one could have foreseen and an unknonw weapon from the AoL to throw it off.

[jburkal'hard]

I think what Elayne did makes perfect sense if look at Elayne obeying the Amyrlins request for a massive showing for strength at FoM. Plus in her inner monologue she contemplates when she'll tell her Warder to start guarding Andors borders, indicating her belief that Caemyln is safe from a surprise attack.

 

 

 

I think Egwene is stupid for asking every ruler to come and send a million troops to confort Rand. Thats the plot work that bugs me the most. Plus her shoddy logic for opposing Rands plan to break the seals

[Suttree]

I think Egwene is stupid for asking every ruler to come and send a million troops to confort Rand. Thats the plot work that bugs me the most. Plus her shoddy logic for opposing Rands plan to break the seals

 

What shoddy logic would that be? Rand showed up, announced he would break the seals and when Egwene said they need to plan he refused to discuss it. That idea goes against what every single person thinks is right in world aside from a tiny handful of people. In addition up until that point Egwene has been receiving reports of Rand's descent into madness and growing list of atrocities(slaughtering his men in the Damona Camapign, Natrin's Barrow, leaving a city to starve once he realized he couldnt use them as "tools"). You can't look at this from the reader perspective, it needs to be viewed from her point in world.

 

We know he has an idea of what to do but is looking for Min to come up with a plan and find the answers for him. It is the Amrylin's duty to question him until he can lay out a rational course of action. Anything else would be totally unrealistic. Further we know Rand purposely antangonized her to get this exact reaction.

[David Selig]

I don't blame BS or RJ and their writing style for this. Elayne has, any number of times, been shown to go haring off to do something stupid without any thought to disaster scenarios. The previous incident- her impersonation of a forsaken (which was actually quite brilliant, if she had informed others of the plan and made contingencies for anything that went wrong) wasn't that long ago.

She did inform others and plan for contingencies in this case.

 

I get what you are saying and agree in parts. With the dumbing down Sanderson's penchant for making one person stupid to resolve a conflict bothers me far more. As does a lot of the less than subtle plot work. Again sticking to the point it beggars belief that this scenario even happened. I believe you have said much the same already.

Yeah, I did. I just don't agree with the claims that such things happen more often in the Sanderson volumes.

[Ian Ohlander]

I don't blame BS or RJ and their writing style for this. Elayne has, any number of times, been shown to go haring off to do something stupid without any thought to disaster scenarios. The previous incident- her impersonation of a forsaken (which was actually quite brilliant, if she had informed others of the plan and made contingencies for anything that went wrong) wasn't that long ago.

She did inform others and plan for contingencies in this case.

 

Reading through chapter 23 of TOM, we see the following:

Elayne is at the play mulling over how to get info from the black sisters.

It dawns on her that they have been compulsed to keep silent.

She leaves the play, taking her guard Bent, and then goes to her rooms.

On the way she gives the guards a strange list of commands.

A servant returns with a black robe and Elayne weaves an image to make herself imposing.

She asks the guardswomen how she looks and they respond that she is imposing.

"Elayne nodded to herself, her heart quickening in excitement. She wasn't worried. She'd be safe. Min's viewing promised that. She ran through her plans again. They were solid."

She ties off her weaves, tells the women to turn out the lights and that she will be back shortly. When Kaila questions her, she steamrolls her, thinking that she was glad Birgitte wasn't there.

 

And that's it. No backup planning or informing others what she was doing. It was similar in KOD when she got captured (though at least she had a little backup then.)

[jburkal'hard]

Perhaps I mis-typed, her initial shock is fine. It is a shocking declaration. However over the next few POV's of her the only rebbuttal she can think of is,"It will let the Dark One loose on world!" This doesn't makes sense given that every Aes Sedai knows that the Dark One will eventually free of his prism.She has numerous reports of massive Trolloc armies in the Borderlands,and you have to be a wool head not to realize what that means.

I think Egwene is stupid for asking every ruler to come and send a million troops to confort Rand. Thats the plot work that bugs me the most. Plus her shoddy logic for opposing Rands plan to break the seals

 

It is the Amrylin's duty to question him until he can lay out a rational course of action. Anything else would be totally unrealistic. Further we know Rand purposely antangonized her to get this exact reaction.

 

Where is it written that this is her duty? The Amrylin's is not some counterbalance to the Dragon Reborn. Perrin came round to Rand's view in only a few days of thinking,I think Egwene is just as capable of doing so.

[Suttree]

Where is it written that this is her duty? The Amrylin's is not some counterbalance to the Dragon Reborn. Perrin came round to Rand's view in only a few days of thinking,I think Egwene is just as capable of doing so.

 

No one said she is a counter balance although the WT has been the main bastion against the shadow for 3,000 years(and would you say LPD was a counter to LTT, without them both the world would already be doomed). As we know Rand doesn't yet have a plan, only an idea, how could she take any other stance besides questioning him as Amyrlin when it could effect the whole world? Even Nyn who spends more time around Rand than anyone concedes Eggy could be right. Rand shared none of Fels materials aside from a cryptic phrase, he didn't explain why everything needs to happen this way and again you are ignoring the fact that Rand perfectly played her to get his reaction. Once they get to the FoM if MIn has found the answers for him and Rand lays out a rational course of action Eggy will fall in line.

[78WARLOCK]

Rand never said he put a trap on the Caemlyn gate. He just said it was guarded. Later he used the word 'sealed' but we don't know what he meant by that.

I agree with that.

 

It doesn't matter whether or not you agree with it; that's what Rand said.

Ouch. Did'nt mean to step wrongly here. Just that I agree with your fact.

[Damer Sedai]

Where is it written that this is her duty? The Amrylin's is not some counterbalance to the Dragon Reborn. Perrin came round to Rand's view in only a few days of thinking,I think Egwene is just as capable of doing so.

 

No one said she is a counter balance although the WT has been the main bastion against the shadow for 3,000 years(and would you say LPD was a counter to LTT, without them both the world would already be doomed). As we know Rand doesn't yet have a plan, only an idea, how could she take any other stance besides questioning him as Amyrlin when it could effect the whole world? Even Nyn who spends more time around Rand than anyone concedes Eggy could be right. Rand shared none of Fels materials aside from a cryptic phrase, he didn't explain why everything needs to happen this way and again you are ignoring the fact that Rand perfectly played her to get his reaction. Once they get to the FoM if MIn has found the answers for him and Rand lays out a rational course of action Eggy will fall in line.

 

It still begs the question, why all the troops? I seriously doubt that it matters if Rand is confronted by the rulers of the world with 10,000 armed men, or 1 million plus soldiers. Does anyone here think that pure numbers is what is going to change his mind? The man who just walked into the White Tower and was unperterbed by 100s of warders, 100s of Aes Sedai and 2 shields of 13 (as far as she could tell) isnt going to balk at that many men, some of which who are likely to support him out of tavereness, others out of loyalty. Plus its hard to put him at risk, with him being the only hope for the dark one's defeat and all. Solidarity might be that big of a deal, I guess. The fact the the FoM will double as a staging platform for the armies of light at the Last Battle has some advantages, but with Travelling its not exactly necessary, is it (maybe some of the more tactically minded posters will correct me). Rand never seems to indicate that he wants all the troops there, but perhaps he knows Egwene well enough that he knows that she will respond with 'BRING ALL TEH ARMIES.' I mentioned this in the other spoiler thread, but this feels like one of those fated events shaped by the pattern RJ style, for a big set piece (the compact), and I for one, am just going to go with it.

 

And I agree with Selig, the complaint of 'dumbing down one character to make another better' has gone on plenty in the RJ books, and it occurs in a lot of fiction too. And it doesnt just happen because of lazy writing, or inpetness, or authorial fiat - sometimes 2 smart characters are opposed, and one does something stupid, weak, or out of character because they aren't perfect shining archetypes, and dont act the same way over and aover, repeated ad nauseum throughout the books. Unless you read books about robots, I guess :)

[MarkDiLillo]

Ya I agree. The whole "lets bring all our armies into one spot" thing was poorly planned. There is no reason for those armies to be there and furthermore...none are camped in any type of formation ready to attack so they clearly are not even considering attacking or defending.

 

IMO this was either Brandon's plot device entirely or he was following RJs notes and the notes were a little vague to the details and may have been changed enough to make better sense by the time RJ got to that scene. Overall, I dont find it to be a big issue at all though. It's one of those things that are a little weird but given that this whole thing is a fantasy story in the first place...weird is normal.

[Neophyte]

I don't blame BS or RJ and their writing style for this. Elayne has, any number of times, been shown to go haring off to do something stupid without any thought to disaster scenarios. The previous incident- her impersonation of a forsaken (which was actually quite brilliant, if she had informed others of the plan and made contingencies for anything that went wrong) wasn't that long ago.

She did inform others and plan for contingencies in this case.

 

No. She. Did. Not.

 

She just plain did not do that. She told others to stay away - that is not the same as informing them. And she planned for no contingencies.

 

Prove me wrong. With quotes from the text. I just re-read it this morning to make sure I wasn't going crazy, so this should be interesting.

 

For your convenience, this incident occurs in Towers of Midnight, chapter 23 "Foxheads."

 

And, just to save you time, the following sentence does not constitute informing anyone:

 

Smiling to herself, Elayne began giving orders. One of the Guardswomen ran off to deliver them, though she looked confused at the strange list of commands.

 

That line constitutes keeping others away with cryptic orders. Also, this line:

 

There would be Kinswomen there to hold Chesmal's shield; Elayne could feel them. Nobody came, despite the sound. The Kin were following Elayne's orders, odd though those orders were.

 

is not evidence of her having informed anyone - it is still just an instance of keeping others away.

 

The only order she gives, for which we have text, is this one to the Guardswomen outside her bedchamber, before she Travels from there directly into the dungeon cells:

 

Elayne inverted her weaves and tied them off. Then she turned to the Guards. "Turn out the lights," she said to them, "and remain perfectly still. I will return shortly."

"But—" Kaila said.

"That is an order, Guardswoman," Elayne said firmly. "You had best obey it."

 

Not particularly informative.

 

Also, after deliberately keeping everyone away, its hard to see what "contingencies" she planned for. Perhaps you can enlighten us there as well.

 

Good luck.

[Suttree]

And I agree with Selig, the complaint of 'dumbing down one character to make another better' has gone on plenty in the RJ books, and it occurs in a lot of fiction too. And it doesnt just happen because of lazy writing, or inpetness, or authorial fiat - sometimes 2 smart characters are opposed, and one does something stupid, weak, or out of character because they aren't perfect shining archetypes, and dont act the same way over and aover, repeated ad nauseum throughout the books. Unless you read books about robots, I guess :)

 

Actually David can correct me if I'm wrong but he was talking about dumbing down characters in advancing the plot such as this decision by Elayne. That is a wholely seperate issue from Brandon's penchant for dumbing down one character when two are in conflict often playing to fan gratification based on who is more popular. We see this with Egwene and the AS(fans get to see the AS look like fools), then does the same with Egwene and Rand(fans get to see their hero play Eggy) and on to Tam and Cads(that dumb bully gets turned into a caricature and shown up). It is lazy writing and allows fan gratifcation to carry the narrative. This technique has spiked under Sanderson and even those who don't agree with much of the critique talk about how much it stands out.

 

No. She. Did. Not.

 

She just plain did not do that. She told others to stay away - that is not the same as informing them. And she planned for no contingencies.

 

Prove me wrong. With quotes from the text. I just re-read it this morning to make sure I wasn't going crazy, so this should be interesting.

 

For your convenience, this incident occurs in Towers of Midnight, chapter 23 "Foxheads."

 

And, just to save you time, the following sentence does not constitute informing anyone:

 

Smiling to herself, Elayne began giving orders. One of the Guardswomen ran off to deliver them, though she looked confused at the strange list of commands.

 

That line constitutes keeping others away with cryptic orders. Also, this line:

 

There would be Kinswomen there to hold Chesmal's shield; Elayne could feel them. Nobody came, despite the sound. The Kin were following Elayne's orders, odd though those orders were.

 

is not evidence of her having informed anyone - it is still just an instance of keeping others away.

 

You are surely welcome to that interpretation Neo but you can't just discount each of those lines as you have no idea what the orders were. Your logic is faulty here.

[David Selig]

If Elayne bothered to send orders to the Kin outside the cells, why wouldn't she tell them to be ready to help her if she calls them? This was her backup and contingency, most likely.

[Neophyte]

You are surely welcome to that interpretation Neo but you can't just discount each of those lines as you have no idea what the orders were. Your logic is faulty here.

 

I can surely extrapolate based on the only known orders that we have, and the reactions of the people around her. Also, I can say that those lines do not constitute evidence of her having "informed" people, precisely because of their vagueness.

 

Throughout that entire scene, she was being deliberately deceptive, not only to the Darkfriends, but to her own servants and guards. It is far more of a stretch to assume that her unknown orders were informative than to conclude that they followed the pattern of the rest of her actions.

[Neophyte]

If Elayne bothered to send orders to the Kin outside the cells, why wouldn't she tell them to be ready to help her if she calls them? This was her backup and contingency, most likely.

 

For the same reason that she didn't tell her Guardswomen what she was doing - she didn't want anyone running to Birgitte to tell on her. She was deliberately hiding her actions from anyone who might try to stop her.

 

To quote the moment of her idea's genesis:

 

She hesitated, missing Sylvase's next comment as a thought occurred to her. Birgitte wouldn't like it, of course. Birgitte didn't like anything. But Elayne had felt Birgitte move off out of the Palace somewhere, perhaps doing rounds of the guard posts outside.

 

and later:

 

Birgitte couldn't object to Elayne's plan for the Black Ajah if she was out with Mat. Elayne found herself smiling.

 

Immediately after that, she starts giving out "odd" orders. Now, can you honestly tell me that she's acting like someone who is going to ask for help and include others in her plan right there? Especially given the one order we actually do get text for which is, "Turn out the lights," she said to them, "and remain perfectly still. I will return shortly."

 

 

Informing the Kin outside of what she is doing would be sensible. But there is no reason to believe, based on what is in the books, that she was behaving sensibly.

[PaulChauvet]

There's been a whole lot of 'aes sedai' being made to look like fools and it didn't start with Sanderson. Most notably interactions between the vast majority of the Aes Sedai and the Aiel Wise Ones (after LoC) but to a lesser extent with the kin as well.

[MarkDiLillo]

There's been a whole lot of 'aes sedai' being made to look like fools and it didn't start with Sanderson. Most notably interactions between the vast majority of the Aes Sedai and the Aiel Wise Ones (after LoC) but to a lesser extent with the kin as well.

 

Ya, one of the few things that has bothered me throughout the entire series is that it seems as if the Aes Sedai in general are borderline retarded. Some of the major character Aes Sedai seem to have some wits about them (Moiraine, Siuan, Cadsuane) but the rest really do seem so stupid it is almost comical.

[Suttree]

There's been a whole lot of 'aes sedai' being made to look like fools and it didn't start with Sanderson. Most notably interactions between the vast majority of the Aes Sedai and the Aiel Wise Ones (after LoC) but to a lesser extent with the kin as well.

 

It's not even up for debate that this technique(dumbing down one to person to make naother look smarter) has been over played under Sanderon. Leigh Butler discusses it often in her rereads and it is the second most frequent complaint voiced behind getting Mat wrong. The examples are numerous I was just citing a few off the top of my head.

[Damer Sedai]

And I agree with Selig, the complaint of 'dumbing down one character to make another better' has gone on plenty in the RJ books, and it occurs in a lot of fiction too. And it doesnt just happen because of lazy writing, or inpetness, or authorial fiat - sometimes 2 smart characters are opposed, and one does something stupid, weak, or out of character because they aren't perfect shining archetypes, and dont act the same way over and aover, repeated ad nauseum throughout the books. Unless you read books about robots, I guess :)

 

Actually David can correct me if I'm wrong but he was talking about dumbing down characters in advancing the plot such as this decision by Elayne. That is a wholely seperate issue from Brandon's penchant for dumbing down one character when two are in conflict often playing to fan gratification based on who is more popular. We see this with Egwene and the AS(fans get to see the AS look like fools), then does the same with Egwene and Rand(fans get to see their hero play Eggy) and on to Tam and Cads(that dumb bully gets turned into a caricature and shown up). It is lazy writing and allows fan gratifcation to carry the narrative instead of good writing. This technique has spiked under Sanderson and even those who don't agree with much of the critique talk about how much it stands out.

Hmm... I see what you mean. I apologize, I veered of on some kind of tangent, didnt I? My mistake. I would still argue that you see acts that are easily interpreted as stupid by all characters, even wise ones, in the RJs books too (Shadar Logoth, anyone?). The WT Aes Sedai were acting like dummies to further the plot (Ooh!.. now the Ajahs get to attack each other cause the Amilryn says so? Weeeee!) long before BS got on the scene. By nature of the complexity of the books, if the writer had to give a paragraph foundation for each character motivations and the pros and cons for every single decision they made, we would be no where near the end. I guess its a matter where you draw the line of reasonableness, but these things are easy to find if you go looking for them to the exclusion of the rest, and just diminish any enjoyment you are going the get out of the books. At least, thats what is true for me.

[dwn]

I think the main reason this instance bugs so many people is that a simple change in the writing would fix the problem: "She left a dozen women... but--the attack--assassins killed all but two of them before they were stopped..."

 

With poisoned weapons it's certainly plausible that a few assassins could take down several of the Kin who aren't accustomed to extra vigilance against such threats. An even better option would have been to explicitly state the assassins were Grey Men.

 

-- dwn

[Damer Sedai]

I think the main reason this instance bugs so many people is that a simple change in the writing would fix the problem: "She left a dozen women... but--the attack--assassins killed all but two of them before they were stopped..."

 

With poisoned weapons it's certainly plausible that a few assassins could take down several of the Kin who aren't accustomed to extra vigilance against such threats. An even better option would have been to explicitly state the assassins were Grey Men.

 

-- dwn

 

I actually agree. I wrote in the main spoiler thread briefly that I would have been happier if there had been a dozen kin, who through a combo of forkroot and Grey Men were incapacitated... or heck...a scenario where nobody know exactly what happened ... but I think the flaw is relatively minor, and not unique to BS.

 

We don't have the whole book. The Kin work for Elayne based on a loose agreement, but they dont actually have a deal set up yet. Perhaps, part of the FoM involves mutitasking by Egwene, and she is going to formalize the agreement with the Kin... and either every single one of them who can be spared, needs to be on location for oaths. Or perhaps the Kin as a group insisted on all got to go so as to be represented, and Elayne had to do some fast negotiating to get any Kin to stay at all. Alise is superior to Elayne in some elements of leadership, and I imagine a tough horsetrader as well.

 

It's not even up for debate that this technique(dumbing down one to person to make naother look smarter) has been over played under Sanderon. Leigh Butler discusses it often in her rereads and it is the second most frequent complaint voiced behind getting Mat wrong. The examples are numerous I was just citing a few off the top of my head.

 

Um... OK. All hail concensus, I guess.

[Suttree]

Um... OK. All hail concensus, I guess.

 

It's not the end all obviously but if it is one of the more referenced critiques across multiple sites that certainly adds weight wouldn't you say? Curious as to whether you see it or not in these two books? It has been discussed and the examples mulled over ad nauseum here and at Theoryland.

[Damer Sedai]

I see unbalanced character persentations in these scenes as well... Some I agree are imperfect or even lacking, but like I said before, I dont think that they always come from bad or lazy writing, and I find the accusations of pandering to the fans troublesome. Some are simple choices: just because the author has a different view on how a scene will play out than you just makes it different, not subpar or worse deficient. To tell you the truth, I saw it with RJ too, long before BS came along, and I wasnt alone : my little cadre of Jordanites discused Elayne's incredibly inconsistant inner POV, and the Mat Tylin thing... whew. I think it was more subtle pre BS. I enjoyed my re-reads of WoT a lot more when I just let go of my little frustrations and trust that RJ knew his story.

 

Its not a suprise to anyone that no one could write the end like RJ. But I think going in distrusting the material is going to be self-fufilling prophecy. And if everything we dont like presented by BS is suspect because of inadequacy, its going to ruin a lot of quality discussion on AMOL IMO. I appreciate the deep thought by the harcore community here, and perhaps I am not showing rigor in my literary analysis (if one could hope to call it that) as a new poster, but I find trying to understand where BS is coming from more helpful to my enjoyment of this now shared world, moreso than harshly judging it.

 

Edited to add the word harsh!