Could Egwene turn from the light?

[XoMeltdownoX]

Suttree:

No rational person without Fel's knowledge would understand Rand's cryptic answer? How about Perrin? He heard it second hand and got it. Any blacksmith? Any builder, engineer or philosopher?

 

Why do you keep stating Rand does not have a plan? I have read that statement more times than I can count. I am not trying to be a smartass. Just wondering why you write that as if it were true.

[XoMeltdownoX]

In regards to the OP. No Egwene would not turn to the shadow. Honestly it is not in her character. She is from the Two Rivers. These people are too bloody stubborn to turn to the Shadow.

[MasterAblar]

They are compromised, so why should Rand tell the Tower his idea - whether he has a complete one or not?

 

Telling some Browns to assist Cads and Min is far different then telling the WT. Further they do not have the basic concept. We the phras means nothing with no perspective on the materials and LTT knowledge they are working off. Again it is totally unrealsitic to think they could come up with a plan, although they could be an invaluable resource which has been my point all along. Who knows though, one of those Browns could be BA so maybe it isn't worth the risk.

The first part of the entire process is clearing away the rubble, correct? She already vehemently disagrees - this 19 year old girl who didn't start to think about this until last week.

As for the Browns - some of them are BA. And, when Rand came in to talk to Egwene, who was he in front of? 13 sitters, correct. That's what I mean by the Tower. So, why would he spill the beans in front of them?

 

Her initial opposition is understandable considering the circumstances and what Rand proposed. It's her continued refusal to consider that he may be right, or even that he may be on to something, even after Nyneave and Elayne have been shown to not really be on her side on the matter, and learning that Rand had considerably changed from what he was like before, that is the problem. And she interpreted the Wise Ones' saying they would talk to Rand about it to mean that they were opposed, as well as Darlin agreeing to question him. Sure she shouldn't give him carte blanche but why dismiss his idea completely, especially when others are not?

I do not disagree. The way I see it, Rand gave her two general parts of what must be done:

1. break the seals to start fresh;

2. use both halves of the power

 

She has a month to respond. If she realizes that she may have overreacted, she now has the chance to come to him or send an envoy. I really don't think Rand did anything wrong in the encounter.

 

Well, yeah he doesn't actually know much more than he told her. That said things like: why does the rubble need to be cleared, how he got this information, where did he get it from, and who did he get it from could have helped. As it is he told her in a rather brusque manner that he planned to do something very dangerous without much of an explanation. He purposefully provoked her and admits it later on, all the while saying he doesn't want Egwene to oppose, but also claiming that it needed to be done. If Rand had good reasons for it I don't see an issue. I just hope that he did. Egwene's lack of prudence and close-mindedness however caused her to create a conflict. Rand is responsible for it too, but the difference with Egwene is that his reasons for doing so are as of yet unknown.

[MasterAblar]

Why do you keep stating Rand does not have a plan? I have read that statement more times than I can count. I am not trying to be a smartass. Just wondering why you write that as if it were true.

 

He doesn't know how to seal the bore, but wants to break the seals as soon as possible regardless. That's where he is lacking a plan.

[thisguy]

They are compromised, so why should Rand tell the Tower his idea - whether he has a complete one or not?

 

Telling some Browns to assist Cads and Min is far different then telling the WT. Further they do not have the basic concept. We the phras means nothing with no perspective on the materials and LTT knowledge they are working off. Again it is totally unrealsitic to think they could come up with a plan, although they could be an invaluable resource which has been my point all along. Who knows though, one of those Browns could be BA so maybe it isn't worth the risk.

The first part of the entire process is clearing away the rubble, correct? She already vehemently disagrees - this 19 year old girl who didn't start to think about this until last week.

As for the Browns - some of them are BA. And, when Rand came in to talk to Egwene, who was he in front of? 13 sitters, correct. That's what I mean by the Tower. So, why would he spill the beans in front of them?

 

Her initial opposition is understandable considering the circumstances and what Rand proposed. It's her continued refusal to consider that he may be right, or even that he may be on to something, even after Nyneave and Elayne have been shown to not really be on her side on the matter, and learning that Rand had considerably changed from what he was like before, that is the problem. And she interpreted the Wise Ones' saying they would talk to Rand about it to mean that they were opposed, as well as Darlin agreeing to question him. Sure she shouldn't give him carte blanche but why dismiss his idea completely, especially when others are not?

I do not disagree. The way I see it, Rand gave her two general parts of what must be done:

1. break the seals to start fresh;

2. use both halves of the power

 

She has a month to respond. If she realizes that she may have overreacted, she now has the chance to come to him or send an envoy. I really don't think Rand did anything wrong in the encounter.

 

Well, yeah he doesn't actually know much more than he told her. That said things like: why does the rubble need to be cleared, how he got this information, where did he get it from, and who did he get it from could have helped. As it is he told her in a rather brusque manner that he planned to do something very dangerous without much of an explanation. He purposefully provoked her and admits it later on, all the while saying he doesn't want Egwene to oppose, but also claiming that it needed to be done. If Rand had good reasons for it I don't see an issue. I just hope that he did. Egwene's lack of prudence and close-mindedness however caused her to create a conflict. Rand is responsible for it too, but the difference with Egwene is that his reasons for doing so are as of yet unknown.

I have to be honest, even if he didn't do it purposely, I'd have no problem with it. And, if I remember correctly, he apologized for defying her. Not exactly all that rude. Also, he's the one who came to her. She has never sent anyone to him to discuss this - unless I am remembering incorrectly. And, since we don't know why he did what he did with her, we really do not know if he doesn't know more than he said he knows. Anyway, as I've said, I see nothing wrong with how he acted, and I do not blame him for not sharing whatever he does know with the other 13 AS in the room.

[XoMeltdownoX]

Why do you keep stating Rand does not have a plan? I have read that statement more times than I can count. I am not trying to be a smartass. Just wondering why you write that as if it were true.

 

He doesn't know how to seal the bore, but wants to break the seals as soon as possible regardless. That's where he is lacking a plan.

No. We really do not know his plan. We have had no relevant POV. What we know is he is missing the key to sealing the bore safely. That is not the same thing.

[MasterAblar]

I have to be honest, even if he didn't do it purposely, I'd have no problem with it. And, if I remember correctly, he apologized for defying her. Not exactly all that rude. Also, he's the one who came to her. She has never sent anyone to him to discuss this - unless I am remembering incorrectly. And, since we don't know why he did what he did with her, we really do not know if he doesn't know more than he said he knows. Anyway, as I've said, I see nothing wrong with how he acted, and I do not blame him for not sharing whatever he does know with the other 13 AS in the room.

 

Oh, I don't think he was rude. In fact he was quite courteous. He just politely refused to talk about a rather important matter, right after bringing it up. At least not at that moment. If the provocation was warranted, which we will hopefully find out in aMoL, then I see no problem with how he acted either. I do agree that the possibility of BA amongst not only the sitters but all the Aes Sedai watching (the meeting was not sealed to the hall), was a risk he may not have been willing to take.

 

No. We really do not know his plan. We have had no relevant POV. What we know is he is missing the key to sealing the bore safely. That is not the same thing.

 

He told Min he can't seal the bore the same way he did last time, but that he believes Callandor is the key. He also tells Egwene that he believes saidin and saidar must both be used. He has parts of the whole, but those won't allow him to seal the bore. He knows what elements he has to use, but he doesn't know what to do with them or how to do it. Unless of course he has been hiding something from Min and, well, pretty much everyone, and, while it's possible, I don't really see the point of doing so.

[XoMeltdownoX]

I have to be honest, even if he didn't do it purposely, I'd have no problem with it. And, if I remember correctly, he apologized for defying her. Not exactly all that rude. Also, he's the one who came to her. She has never sent anyone to him to discuss this - unless I am remembering incorrectly. And, since we don't know why he did what he did with her, we really do not know if he doesn't know more than he said he knows. Anyway, as I've said, I see nothing wrong with how he acted, and I do not blame him for not sharing whatever he does know with the other 13 AS in the room.

 

Oh, I don't think he was rude. In fact he was quite courteous. He just politely refused to talk about a rather important matter, right after bringing it up. At least not at that moment. If the provocation was warranted, which we will hopefully find out in aMoL, then I see no problem with how he acted either. I do agree that the possibility of BA amongst not only the sitters but all the Aes Sedai watching (the meeting was not sealed to the hall), was a risk he may not have been willing to take.

 

No. We really do not know his plan. We have had no relevant POV. What we know is he is missing the key to sealing the bore safely. That is not the same thing.

 

He told Min he can't seal the bore the same way he did last time, but that he believes Callandor is the key. He also tells Egwene that he believes saidin and saidar must both be used. He has parts of the whole, but those won't allow him to seal the bore. He knows what elements he has to use, but he doesn't know what to do with them or how to do it. Unless of course he has been hiding something from Min and, well, pretty much everyone, and, while it's possible, I don't really see the point of doing so.

So in other words he has a plan, knows he is missing a key component and has someone working on it.

 

For the record, I do not think it will turn out like he suspects. Min will solve his riddle, he will go in with his full plan and it will fail. Perhaps he dies and is brought back. Maybe that has already happened and for some other reason he fails, but the real key will be him working together with Perrin and Mat to seal the bore.

[Diamondmask]

With regards to Egwene turning Dark - what is with her headaches? I know they are from 'Halima' but to what purpose?

[thisguy]

With regards to Egwene turning Dark - what is with her headaches? I know they are from 'Halima' but to what purpose?

At the least, to get 'Halima' close to her.

[MasterAblar]

So in other words he has a plan, knows he is missing a key component and has someone working on it.

 

Pretty much. The thing is he, presumably, intends to break the seals even if he doesn't have the plan fully worked out yet, which could be problematic to say the least.

 

Of course this doesn't relate to Egwene as she doesn't know about it.

 

With regards to Egwene turning Dark - what is with her headaches? I know they are from 'Halima' but to what purpose?

 

To interfere with her Dreams I believe. Or rather they are caused by Halima so that Egwene will let her massage her head, thereby allowing Halima to interfere with her Dreams. I think.

[thisguy]

So in other words he has a plan, knows he is missing a key component and has someone working on it.

 

Pretty much. The thing is he, presumably, intends to break the seals even if he doesn't have the plan fully worked out yet, which could be problematic to say the least.

 

Of course this doesn't relate to Egwene as she doesn't know about it.

 

With regards to Egwene turning Dark - what is with her headaches? I know they are from 'Halima' but to what purpose?

 

To interfere with her Dreams I believe. Or rather they are caused by Halima so that Egwene will let her massage her head, thereby allowing Halima to interfere with her Dreams. I think.

The longer those seals are in place, the longer the DO has to prep, as well as the DR and his troops. It's a crappy situation either way. Whaddaya gonna do?

[MasterAblar]

The longer those seals are in place, the longer the DO has to prep, as well as the DR and his troops. It's a crappy situation either way. Whaddaya gonna do?

 

That does seem to be what Rand's thought process. And I agree neither situation is good. I'm just not sure what makes breaking the seals any better. Perhaps Rand is simply hoping the answer will reveal itself in time and that he has to trust the pattern. I don't know how he's gonna sell that to everyone though.

[Suttree]

Edit to add: Rand says 'his' mistake the last time he sealed the bore was not to use women as well as men. For all we know the counterstrike was possible because only saidin was used to seal the bore.

 

He knows his plan last time was flawed and he needs a new method. The counterstrike would have happened regardless we know per RJ that it was a "lucky thing" Saidar was not used to seal the bore or it would have been tainted as well and that Rand says "they may have been wise to deny me their strength". That is part of the reason he needs to come up with a whole new plan. In regards to that he has said he thinks Saidin and Saidar must be used but as he says "I don't have the answers yet" in addition he is missing something "vital" and needs Min to find out what it is. At this stage he has an idea about what he must do but we have no indication that he has any sort of structured plan. It's not as if he has everyting ready to go and is just waiting on one small piece from Min. She is finding those "answers" for him.

[thisguy]

The longer those seals are in place, the longer the DO has to prep, as well as the DR and his troops. It's a crappy situation either way. Whaddaya gonna do?

 

That does seem to be what Rand's thought process. And I agree neither situation is good. I'm just not sure what makes breaking the seals any better. Perhaps Rand is simply hoping the answer will reveal itself in time and that he has to trust the pattern. I don't know how he's gonna sell that to everyone though.

Does Rand actually hold all of the remaining seals? I don't remember.

 

Well, he is ta'veren. Maybe, he just has a hunch.

[XoMeltdownoX]

The longer those seals are in place, the longer the DO has to prep, as well as the DR and his troops. It's a crappy situation either way. Whaddaya gonna do?

 

That does seem to be what Rand's thought process. And I agree neither situation is good. I'm just not sure what makes breaking the seals any better. Perhaps Rand is simply hoping the answer will reveal itself in time and that he has to trust the pattern. I don't know how he's gonna sell that to everyone though.

I think the opposite will happen. He and Min plan. It fails and the three TR boys succeed because the Pattern needs them to.

[MasterAblar]

Does Rand actually hold all of the remaining seals? I don't remember.

 

Yes, though he doesn't know it:

 

-the first was at the Eye of the World: broken

-Domon had the second and gave it to Turak: broken

-Turak had a third one as well: broken

-Moiraine found a fourth one in Tear: intact

-She also found a fifth one in Rhuidean: intact

-Elayne and Nyneave found the sixth one in Tanchico: broken

-Taim gave Rand the last one: intact

 

So basically Rand has the three last ones, but he doesn't know that the girls found one in Tanchico and that it's broken. Hopefully he will finally tell him about that as they should have long ago. As for where the last three ones are, we don't know. However thieves tried to take them from Bashere and Dobraine so perhaps he entrusted two of them with them. If I recall correctly Rand did give Bashere the one Taim brought at the beginning of LoC.

[MasterAblar]

I think the opposite will happen. He and Min plan. It fails and the three TR boys succeed because the Pattern needs them to.

 

Maybe. I haven't thought too much about how everything will go down. I'm afraid I might stumble accross the truth by accident, and that would be very dissapointing. But seriously, I figure the pattern has to close itself somehow and Rand is the key to that. Mat and Perrin I don't know. They might have other crucial roles. Dealing with Slayer for instance.

[thisguy]

Does Rand actually hold all of the remaining seals? I don't remember.

 

Yes, though he doesn't know it:

 

-the first was at the Eye of the World: broken

-Domon had the second and gave it to Turak: broken

-Turak had a third one as well: broken

-Moiraine found a fourth one in Tear: intact

-She also found a fifth one in Rhuidean: intact

-Elayne and Nyneave found the sixth one in Tanchico: broken

-Taim gave Rand the last one: intact

 

So basically Rand has the three last ones, but he doesn't know that the girls found one in Tanchico and that it's broken. Hopefully he will finally tell him about that as they should have long ago. As for where the last three ones are, we don't know. However thieves tried to take them from Bashere and Dobraine so perhaps he entrusted two of them with them. If I recall correctly Rand did give Bashere the one Taim brought at the beginning of LoC.

I think you're right about that - Bashere, I mean.

 

That's gotta take some balls. "All right guys, right after breakfast, I'm releasing the Devil. No biggee."

[MasterAblar]

Does Rand actually hold all of the remaining seals? I don't remember.

 

Yes, though he doesn't know it:

 

-the first was at the Eye of the World: broken

-Domon had the second and gave it to Turak: broken

-Turak had a third one as well: broken

-Moiraine found a fourth one in Tear: intact

-She also found a fifth one in Rhuidean: intact

-Elayne and Nyneave found the sixth one in Tanchico: broken

-Taim gave Rand the last one: intact

 

So basically Rand has the three last ones, but he doesn't know that the girls found one in Tanchico and that it's broken. Hopefully he will finally tell him about that as they should have long ago. As for where the last three ones are, we don't know. However thieves tried to take them from Bashere and Dobraine so perhaps he entrusted two of them with them. If I recall correctly Rand did give Bashere the one Taim brought at the beginning of LoC.

I think you're right about that - Bashere, I mean.

 

That's gotta take some balls. "All right guys, right after breakfast, I'm releasing the Devil. No biggee."

 

"TONIGHT WE DINE IN HELL!!!"

 

Yeah I'd say he has some pretty big cojones.

[thisguy]

Does Rand actually hold all of the remaining seals? I don't remember.

 

Yes, though he doesn't know it:

 

-the first was at the Eye of the World: broken

-Domon had the second and gave it to Turak: broken

-Turak had a third one as well: broken

-Moiraine found a fourth one in Tear: intact

-She also found a fifth one in Rhuidean: intact

-Elayne and Nyneave found the sixth one in Tanchico: broken

-Taim gave Rand the last one: intact

 

So basically Rand has the three last ones, but he doesn't know that the girls found one in Tanchico and that it's broken. Hopefully he will finally tell him about that as they should have long ago. As for where the last three ones are, we don't know. However thieves tried to take them from Bashere and Dobraine so perhaps he entrusted two of them with them. If I recall correctly Rand did give Bashere the one Taim brought at the beginning of LoC.

I think you're right about that - Bashere, I mean.

 

That's gotta take some balls. "All right guys, right after breakfast, I'm releasing the Devil. No biggee."

 

"TONIGHT WE DINE IN HELL!!!"

 

Yeah I'd say he has some pretty big cojones.

HAHA!!! "What we do in life echoes through eternity".... over and over and over and over again.

[Damer Sedai]

Edit to add: Rand says 'his' mistake the last time he sealed the bore was not to use women as well as men. For all we know the counterstrike was possible because only saidin was used to seal the bore.

 

He knows his plan last time was flawed and he needs a new method. The counterstrike would have happened regardless we know per RJ that it was a "lucky thing" Saidar was not used to seal the bore or it would have been tainted as well. That is part of the reason he needs to come up with a whole new plan. In regards to that he has said he thinks Saidin and Saidar must be used but as he says "I don't have the answers yet" in addition he is missing something "vital" and needs Min to find out what it is. At this stage he has an idea about what he must do but we have no indication that he has any sort of structured plan. It's not as if he has everyting ready to go and is just waiting on one small piece from Min. She is finding those "answers" for him.

 

So the question is how many pieces of the Plan does Rand have, anyway?

 

Its an interesting problem, as a reader. Obviously there are parts we aren't going to know. First for dramatic purposes, so that we are not too spoiled for the big reveal in AMOL... TWOT known for nothing if not excellent foreshadowing, so if all is kept in good tradition we probably have some clues as to how this is going to go. But we as readers are usually surprised (or at least I am) by the new innovative, game-changing level channeling: Cleansing the Source, First SIster Weaves, the Triple BOnding of Rand... there no testing prior to leaping in the fire, and we usually get the theory (as much as is we ever do) as the scene is occurring, whether is RJ or BS.

 

In addition, the descriptions on how channeling works we get in the series is great for storytelling, but might not help us here except in broads strokes. We dont get the quantum level nitty gitty details. I dont think anyone guessed how cleansing the source would work until it actually happened. Apparently Rand was able to decode a riddle from the Finns (and possibly from his dual wounds in his side) on how to cleans the source... but how does he extrapolate it into practical weaving? I this Rand is looking for that Eureka moment from Min - he has the first step (Seal Breaking), he has a PhD in theoretical bore weaving ( IRL scientists learn a lot from their mistakes) from LTT's memory on how you channel at the bore, HE has practical experience in the heavy lifting of massive amounts of linked saidar and saidin from the cleansing, and he knows he needs callendor.

 

"Callendor" he said "It plays a part in this. You have to find out how. I cannot seal the bore the way I tried the last time. I'm missing something, something vital. Find it for me"

Rand Speaking to Min, TOM "For What has been Wrought"

 

HE is missing some key element, but he doesn't sound like a man without any plan. Or rather, he seem sure that there is a solution from which at the other parts of the plan will flow. THats how it often works in the books AFAIKT, get a clue, go from there.

 

Although there are signs enough for anyone, I suspect Rand more than most is able to feel the deadline of final days approaching (i.e. Break the Seals or they will be Broken for you, and at the worst possible time to boot), perhaps due to his importance to the pattern, perhaps from similar LTT experience. Thats why he chooses a month. He tells Nynaeve why, but he sure could have been less oblique.

[Suttree]

HE is missing some key element, but he doesn't sound like a man without any plan.

 

But you combine the missing something "vital" with the fact that he "thinks" saidin and saidar must be used and "I don't have the answers yet". All combined it doesn't make me think he has much beyond an idea of what to do. It is probably fair to say he has the structure but not details as of yet.

[YourNewDragonAndGod]

HE is missing some key element, but he doesn't sound like a man without any plan.

 

But you combine the missing something "vital" with the fact that he "thinks" saidin and saidar must be used and "I don't have the answers yet". All combined it doesn't make me think he has much beyond an idea of what to do. It is probably fair to say he has the structure but not details as of yet.

But a plan works until the battle begins. While it is safe to assume that he does not yet have all of the details planned out, if he plans it to precise and something goes awry then everyone is screwed.

[Damer Sedai]

HE is missing some key element, but he doesn't sound like a man without any plan.

 

But you combine the missing something "vital" with the fact that he "thinks" saidin and saidar must be used and "I don't have the answers yet". All combined it doesn't make me think he has much beyond an idea of what to do. It is probably fair to say he has the structure but not details as of yet.

 

Possibly. Alternatively Rand's reference to "I don't have the answers yet" in Ch 2 and "missing something vital" later in his conversation with Min are indicating the same missing clue. Also, he actually doesn't actually use "I think", which depending on context can indicate varying levels of uncertainty... Rand actually says "I believe both Saidin and Saidar must be used", which typically indicates a stronger confidence in ones statement.

 

And I think we have parsed down the language to its basest elements - no where else to go. Do we get a prize? You may well be right, but I find the text suggest a slightly stronger context from which Rand can work.