Lord of Chaos Question

[thisguy]

Finished my first reread of LoC in years last night. I'm sure this has been discussed before but -

 

Were Taim and a few of the Ashaman the ones who stabbed the Aes Sedai in Caemlyn (name starts with a D. She was part of the group from Salidar)?

 

Was Taim under orders from Demandred to do this - or something like it - to drive Rand to Cairhien where he could be put in the box so that Taim could come and rescue Rand later?

 

 

 

Thank you.

[Luckers]

I do believe that Taim ordered the attack on Demira. He had men willing to openly attack Aes Sedai--no small thing--with the training in weapons to inflict the wound so specifically and non-fatally (thanks to Rand's insistance that they train with the sword). He was close enough to Caemlyn to organise the strike--including the simultaneous warning to the other Aes Sedai--again, no small thing. He had the motive--he, more than anyone save perhaps Verin--and no, I don't think it was Verin. For all that she exploited it when it happened, she would have been more sublte--wanted the split between the Aes Sedai and Rand. It also fits is methodology--much like with the grey man that he 'saved' Rand from, or the attack on the Sun Palace, a blunt attack that Taim distances himself from.

 

Finally, it can be noted that the reason that Demira entered that alley was because a man smirked at her--after many other men smirk at her, this one causes an over reaction of distaste repelling her into the alley. It is very similar to the basic forms of compulsion many wilders learn--for instance Theodrin, who could repell someone or attract them in almost precisely that way. And finally, the fact that Demira tries and tries to reach the Source but fails may be telling also... or it might just be because she was injured. We've seen variations on that and successes and failures throughout the series.

 

For all that, I don't think Demandred ordered it, nor was it to cause Rand to be boxed. It was Taim looking to secure Rand's ear for himself, and drive a wedge between him and the Aes Sedai.

[thisguy]

I do believe that Taim ordered the attack on Demira. He had men willing to openly attack Aes Sedai--no small thing--with the training in weapons to inflict the wound so specifically and non-fatally (thanks to Rand's insistance that they train with the sword). He was close enough to Caemlyn to organise the strike--including the simultaneous warning to the other Aes Sedai--again, no small thing. He had the motive--he, more than anyone save perhaps Verin--and no, I don't think it was Verin. For all that she exploited it when it happened, she would have been more sublte--wanted the split between the Aes Sedai and Rand. It also fits is methodology--much like with the grey man that he 'saved' Rand from, or the attack on the Sun Palace, a blunt attack that Taim distances himself from.

 

Finally, it can be noted that the reason that Demira entered that alley was because a man smirked at her--after many other men smirk at her, this one causes an over reaction of distaste repelling her into the alley. It is very similar to the basic forms of compulsion many wilders learn--for instance Theodrin, who could repell someone or attract them in almost precisely that way. And finally, the fact that Demira tries and tries to reach the Source but fails may be telling also... or it might just be because she was injured. We've seen variations on that and successes and failures throughout the series.

 

For all that, I don't think Demandred ordered it, nor was it to cause Rand to be boxed. It was Taim looking to secure Rand's ear for himself, and drive a wedge between him and the Aes Sedai.

 

Thanks, Luckers. More questions then ;)

 

Do we know what Demandred did that he asked the DO at SG at the end "Have I not done well?"

 

Verin - Even the she's a kind of double agent - I sort of got the feeling she was working for Rand (not directly. just wanted to help the boy out) after she started manipulating the other AS. What do you think?

 

Thanks again, Lux.

[Luckers]

Do we know what Demandred did that he asked the DO at SG at the end "Have I not done well?"

 

For one thing he initiated the plan that the Shadow not act openly, but instead direct their efforts to dividing the Light and turning those aspects against each other--this is the spread of chaos, and what Mesaana refers to as a daring plan which may bring them everything, or risk everything. Beyond that we know he had other instructions, including the use of Balefire to some unspecified purpose. There was likely more besides.

 

Verin - Even the she's a kind of double agent - I sort of got the feeling she was working for Rand (not directly. just wanted to help the boy out) after she started manipulating the other AS. What do you think?

 

Without a doubt. I wrote the following before tGS came out--I'm still punching myself for not picking the BA-traitor line, it was there just one step further--but yes, without a doubt.

 

The Very Helpful Verin Theory

 

This theory suggests that Verin is acting to stop the Aes Sedai doing what they do best. Meddling. Taking charge. Making an all around pest of themselves--and, oh yeah, destroying everything in the process. Or, more succinctly, that Verin is acting to stop the Aes Sedai from taking over whilst ensuring that they are there to help Rand when the Tarmon Gai'don comes round.

 

In terms of the dangers--we need look no further than Moiraine, the Aes Sedai Rand came the closest to trusting (and therefore following). Had Rand followed her advice he would not have gone to Tear, would not have defeated Be'lal and gained Callandor, would not have gone to the Waste and gained the Aiel Instant Army (or the thousands of Wise One channelers that came with it) and so on, so forth. Moiraine, on the other hand, never even paused to think her planning was wrong, and when Rand went against her she grew furious.

 

It's a reasonable mission for someone with insight to take up--the question becomes, did she have that insight. I used Moiraine to begin us off with an example, but let's follow on with that--a line of thought which leads us directly to...

 

The Lie

 

Ok, everyone gets bogged down in the fact that Verin lied. How'd she do it? Is she Black? Why does she seem to be bound against lying in tPoD? Good questions, I suppose, but still that's the problem with someone who is bound against lying--when they do everyone gets caught up in how they lied, and no one pauses to wonder why they lied. So let's shove aside the mechanics for a moment, and consider the issue of why she lied, especially to Shienarans, who practically worship the Aes Sedai. She could have said 'a pink bunny-rabbit named Lulu sent me, my Lord. It thought you'd enjoy it if I danced the sa'sara for you." and they would have bowed and given honours to the Sister. More significantly, she could simply have said "I thought you might need my help. The horn is important to us all." Perfectly reasonable, and no tricky Oaths messing her up.

 

So what did Verin achieve by bringing up Moiraine? I can only think of one thing--she destroyed everything Moiraine had been attempting to achieve when she allowed Rand to 'slip his leash'. Letting him run was a power play for Moiraine to retain control in the long run. Verin was aware of this, and her lie served only one purpose--to cause Rand to feel precisely what Moiraine didn't want him feeling--trapped under her thumb.

 

The lie, therefore, was designed specifically to drive a wedge between Rand and the one Aes Sedai he might have come to trust--and in that trust, follow.

 

Playing at Politics

 

I started with the Lie because it is regarded as the most significant Verinism, and the Rand/Moiraine bond was the closest an Aes Sedai has come to leading Rand. It is, however, the following two Verinisms which are the most telling in terms of this theory. Specifically in LoC Verin manipulates Demira into the disastrous confrontation with Rand, knowing full well that facing him down in that way would only drive a wedge between the Salidar embassy and Rand, then in tPoD she begins compelling the Tower embassy into swearing fealty to him.

 

Again, she keeps Aes Sedai from being on any sort of equal footing with Rand, yet she has no problem with them being in service to him--so it is not Aes Sedai being around him that she objects too, just Aes Sedai being in positions to influence him. Which, of course, brings us to Cadsuane.

 

Killing Caddy

 

Now some might see Cadsuane as evidence against this idea--she is wilful and has indeed managed to gain a position of influence around him. The problem is that that actually fits with this theory--Verin DOES seem worried about the hold Cadsuane is gaining. She even goes so far as almost poisoning her--she stopped only when Cadsuane reveals that she intends to act in his best interest, and that her actions and her bullying had nothing to do with getting control of him.

 

 

The conclusion we can draw from these three bits of evidence is that Verin is indeed aware of the dangers of Aes Sedai coming to take charge, and that she is acting to stop it. But what set her on this path--it could just be natural insight, but Verin states that she has been working on this for seventy years, if so what happened seventy years ago to alert her specifically to this danger? More significantly what did so in a way that would make Verin begin to plan for it fifty years before Rand was even born.

 

I have a possible answer.

 

Corianin's Notes

 

My guess is they contain notes on the Aes Sedai themselves, possibly with dreams about the dangers of the Aes Sedai gaining too much leverage on Rand, or too much control over events approaching TG. We can already see the ways in which that would have been disastrous, and in more just than the Moiraine ways listed--no Asha'men, for instance, and no clean saidin. It's my guess that Corianin's notes are what set Verin on this path.

 

Now, is there evidence for this? I think there is in the fact that she considered showing them to Egwene. Like Moiraine I suspect Verin saw that Egwene had the potential to be a driving force in the tower, and a power in upcoming events, and that given her history with Rand, a good influence on the Aes Sedai's dealings with Rand. These notes would forewarn Egwene, and possibly give Verin an ally.

 

So why does she choose not to? Well, Egwene's young, and shown herself to be a bit impulsive. These notes, if they say what I suspect they say, would be questioning the very principals of the Tower. They would suggest directly acting against the Tower's best interest and in the interest of a man who can channel. And that is against both Law and custom--that Verin was planning to act on them could have seen her stilled. Egwene may have been inclined to be more liberal, but she was still dedicated to the Tower, and impressed by the doctrine of the Aes Sedai. The risk was too great.

 

Conclusions

 

Ultimately every one of her peculiar actions lend themself to one thing--Verin acting to keep Aes Sedai from taking over, and yet still stay involved in the fight against the Shadow. Of course this still leaves things up in the air--why did she say nothing about Luc, how did she lie... I suspect we won't know the answers to those till it's revealed in the book. Either way I would sustain that her purpose is as stated above.

 

 

 

 

Edit to add: I still believe that Corianin's notes began this, and that the question Verin asked that led the Black Ajah into recruiting her were questions about the stagnation of the Tower and the arrogance and blindness of the modern Aes Sedai--precisely the sort of questions that are at once both reasonable, and might be read as the sort of thing that might indicate Verin's loyalties weren't very strong (and thus that she might be open to recruitment).

[thisguy]

Thank you very much for that, Luckers.

 

I've mentioned before - I haven't done a reread in years. Two things came to me last night when I finished LoC

 

While Dumais Well is still a great chapter, it wasn't as good as I remembered. On an aside, I was upset that the wolves came and then were never mentioned again.

 

The other thing is - many of the AS - DF or not - are vile. Truly vile. Rand should have had them beaten for days until they were little better than servants.

 

Verin - I remember now why I always liked her. She's awesome.

[Suttree]

The other thing is - many of the AS - DF or not - are vile. Truly vile. Rand should have had them beaten for days until they were little better than servants.

 

Isn't that what the WOs end up doing essentially? I mean thy basically torture them till they are no longer considered datsang.

[thisguy]

The other thing is - many of the AS - DF or not - are vile. Truly vile. Rand should have had them beaten for days until they were little better than servants.

 

Isn't that what the WOs end up doing essentially? I mean thy basically torture them till they are no longer considered datsang.

Do they? Good. I'm starting the next book tonight. I remember more about Mat and the girls going for the bowl in that book than anything else.

[Suttree]

The other thing is - many of the AS - DF or not - are vile. Truly vile. Rand should have had them beaten for days until they were little better than servants.

 

Isn't that what the WOs end up doing essentially? I mean thy basically torture them till they are no longer considered datsang.

Do they? Good. I'm starting the next book tonight. I remember more about Mat and the girls going for the bowl in that book than anything else.

 

Think you will like Verin even more and what happens to that bunch at the hands of the WOs!

[thisguy]

The other thing is - many of the AS - DF or not - are vile. Truly vile. Rand should have had them beaten for days until they were little better than servants.

 

Isn't that what the WOs end up doing essentially? I mean thy basically torture them till they are no longer considered datsang.

Do they? Good. I'm starting the next book tonight. I remember more about Mat and the girls going for the bowl in that book than anything else.

 

Think you will like Verin even more and what happens to that bunch at the hands of the WOs!

 

Lol. As I believe I told you, I hadn't read the series in years, but as soon as Verin showed up in the books I was happy.

[Diamondmask]

Is it certain that it was Taim who tried to kill Demira - I thought it could well be Sammael's creatures and his tame Shaido, as it was a group of Aiel who were with the the attacker. Especially with his wheeling and dealing with Savanna and Rand's refusal not to come after him.

[XoMeltdownoX]

Is it certain that it was Taim who tried to kill Demira - I thought it could well be Sammael's creatures and his tame Shaido, as it was a group of Aiel who were with the the attacker. Especially with his wheeling and dealing with Savanna and Rand's refusal not to come after him.

They were not Aiel. Aiel are not short and do not have dark eyes. Demira is meant to think they were Aiel.

[thisguy]

Is it certain that it was Taim who tried to kill Demira - I thought it could well be Sammael's creatures and his tame Shaido, as it was a group of Aiel who were with the the attacker. Especially with his wheeling and dealing with Savanna and Rand's refusal not to come after him.

They were not Aiel. Aiel are not short and do not have dark eyes. Demira is meant to think they were Aiel.

I think that's what he said. I think he meant that Originally after his first reading he thought it could be the Shaido via Sammael. But, he's saying it was Taim and some of his men.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Isn't the other option Fain? What with the the guy calling her a "witch" and that being the main slur the WC like to use towards AS? And fain having (Insert number, I don't know) whitecloaks turned by his evil and essentially his slaves?

[thisguy]

Isn't the other option Fain? What with the the guy calling her a "witch" and that being the main slur the WC like to use towards AS? And fain having (Insert number, I don't know) whitecloaks turned by his evil and essentially his slaves?

I may be remembering this incorrectly (which is sad since I just read it last night - stayed up late and came into work zonked) but I believe the description of the main 'aiel' matched his better. It may have actually said slanted eyes but I could be totally wrong about that. I did get more of a Taim than Fain feeling. I like how these two guys have the AI thing going for them.

[XoMeltdownoX]

Isn't the other option Fain? What with the the guy calling her a "witch" and that being the main slur the WC like to use towards AS? And fain having (Insert number, I don't know) whitecloaks turned by his evil and essentially his slaves?

I think it is just as likely. My original thought when reading it was that it sounded like a WC.

[XoMeltdownoX]

Is it certain that it was Taim who tried to kill Demira - I thought it could well be Sammael's creatures and his tame Shaido, as it was a group of Aiel who were with the the attacker. Especially with his wheeling and dealing with Savanna and Rand's refusal not to come after him.

They were not Aiel. Aiel are not short and do not have dark eyes. Demira is meant to think they were Aiel.

I think that's what he said. I think he meant that Originally after his first reading he thought it could be the Shaido via Sammael. But, he's saying it was Taim and some of his men.

I do not think so. While lacking a question mark, the first sentence is a question.

[jwood01]

It is definitely not "certain" that it was Taim who ordered that attack; though he is a likely candidate.

 

Demandred and Fain are other options.

[thisguy]

Whoever it was, I was surprised at the AS logic after the attack. They just assumed Rand and dealth with it that way.

[Maleshub]

Terez discussed this in another thread a week earlier. In her post and subsequent replies and discussion, it was stated that the most likely culprits are Taim and Fain.

[thisguy]

Terez discussed this in another thread a week earlier. In her post and subsequent replies and discussion, it was stated that the most likely culprits are Taim and Fain.

The only problem I have with Fain is that he would have used his dagger. I don't know if he could help himself. UNLESS, they were the remnants of his white cloaks, and he just gave the order.

 

The Witches comment makes complete sense then. Although, I could be wrong. Just because it seems out of character for him not to use his dagger doesn't mean he wouldn't for the right reason. As soon as I read the description of the eyes though, I thought Taim.

 

I also thought Taim because if it were him he went against Rand's orders and, in Dumai's Well he's not wearing his pins that Rand put on his lapels. I just thought it made sense.

[Maleshub]

Terez discussed this in another thread a week earlier. In her post and subsequent replies and discussion, it was stated that the most likely culprits are Taim and Fain.

The only problem I have with Fain is that he would have used his dagger. I don't know if he could help himself. UNLESS, they were the remnants of his white cloaks, and he just gave the order.

 

The Witches comment makes complete sense then. Although, I could be wrong. Just because it seems out of character for him not to use his dagger doesn't mean he wouldn't for the right reason. As soon as I read the description of the eyes though, I thought Taim.

 

I also thought Taim because if it were him he went against Rand's orders and, in Dumai's Well he's not wearing his pins that Rand put on his lapels. I just thought it made sense.

 

The theory was that Taim or Fain ordered the attack. Both would not do it in person.

[thisguy]

Terez discussed this in another thread a week earlier. In her post and subsequent replies and discussion, it was stated that the most likely culprits are Taim and Fain.

The only problem I have with Fain is that he would have used his dagger. I don't know if he could help himself. UNLESS, they were the remnants of his white cloaks, and he just gave the order.

 

The Witches comment makes complete sense then. Although, I could be wrong. Just because it seems out of character for him not to use his dagger doesn't mean he wouldn't for the right reason. As soon as I read the description of the eyes though, I thought Taim.

 

I also thought Taim because if it were him he went against Rand's orders and, in Dumai's Well he's not wearing his pins that Rand put on his lapels. I just thought it made sense.

 

The theory was that Taim or Fain ordered the attack. Both would not do it in person.

You don't think so? I think Taim would love to stab an AS as he had been captured by them, etc.

[Maleshub]

Terez discussed this in another thread a week earlier. In her post and subsequent replies and discussion, it was stated that the most likely culprits are Taim and Fain.

The only problem I have with Fain is that he would have used his dagger. I don't know if he could help himself. UNLESS, they were the remnants of his white cloaks, and he just gave the order.

 

The Witches comment makes complete sense then. Although, I could be wrong. Just because it seems out of character for him not to use his dagger doesn't mean he wouldn't for the right reason. As soon as I read the description of the eyes though, I thought Taim.

 

I also thought Taim because if it were him he went against Rand's orders and, in Dumai's Well he's not wearing his pins that Rand put on his lapels. I just thought it made sense.

 

The theory was that Taim or Fain ordered the attack. Both would not do it in person.

You don't think so? I think Taim would love to stab an AS as he had been captured by them, etc.

 

My perception of Taim and Fain is that they would order their minions to do the deed. The support evidence is Fain's attempt at Rand's life in Caemlyn using his Whitecloak DF's and Taim ordering his Ashaman to do the strike on the Sun Palace in Cairhien.

[thisguy]

Terez discussed this in another thread a week earlier. In her post and subsequent replies and discussion, it was stated that the most likely culprits are Taim and Fain.

The only problem I have with Fain is that he would have used his dagger. I don't know if he could help himself. UNLESS, they were the remnants of his white cloaks, and he just gave the order.

 

The Witches comment makes complete sense then. Although, I could be wrong. Just because it seems out of character for him not to use his dagger doesn't mean he wouldn't for the right reason. As soon as I read the description of the eyes though, I thought Taim.

 

I also thought Taim because if it were him he went against Rand's orders and, in Dumai's Well he's not wearing his pins that Rand put on his lapels. I just thought it made sense.

 

The theory was that Taim or Fain ordered the attack. Both would not do it in person.

You don't think so? I think Taim would love to stab an AS as he had been captured by them, etc.

 

My perception of Taim and Fain is that they would order their minions to do the deed. The support evidence is Fain's attempt at Rand's life in Caemlyn using his Whitecloak DF's and Taim ordering his Ashaman to do the strike on the Sun Palace in Cairhien.

I need to reread it. The first thought that popped into my mind at the description was Taim - doesn't mean I'm right in the least but need to look again.

[Sid]

Lol, I had this page opened for hours and came back to it, was about to reply, and then the message "14 new replies have been added. Show?"

 

We can only speculate on who sent the men after Demira. It may never even be answered in the text. Taim is certainly a very strong candidate, though.

 

Does the description of any attackers (such as they are) match any description of known Taim lackeys from the BT?