Daved Hanlon and Lady Shiaine

[TyphoonBlade]

I've been thinking about the plot lines AMOL will cover/resolve and started wondering what part these two will play in the last book.

 

Hanlon still has the duplicate medallion, and Shiaine seems pretty high ranking among dark friends.

 

I assume they are probably still in camelyn since they seemed aware of the impending attack, but I was wondering what you guys thought, will this get resolved in amol or is it one of those plot lines that isn't wrapped up?

[Tiberius]

They will get killed. Birgette will snuff Hanlon. Elaine will capture Shiaine, but will get killed during the attack. Now taking bets.

[spoke]

They will get killed. Birgette will snuff Hanlon. Elaine will capture Shiaine, but will get killed during the attack. Now taking bets.

 

I doubt, Min saw Hanlon in the rebel camp (near Carheinien), and in her viewing she said he would have a lot of rapes and murders on his hands, so I think that Hanlon will be around for quite some time. Until he escaped in the last book, I was wondering how he would survive to do so.

[Tiberius]

Oh. Forgot about that. Good call

[GYLD]

Hanlon could have easily already fulfilled that viewing. In just his time as Elayne's guard he murdered a number of men sent to follow him and raped Falion, and that's just what we're told of.

[Terez]

I've been thinking about the plot lines AMOL will cover/resolve and started wondering what part these two will play in the last book.

 

Hanlon still has the duplicate medallion, and Shiaine seems pretty high ranking among dark friends.

 

I assume they are probably still in camelyn since they seemed aware of the impending attack, but I was wondering what you guys thought, will this get resolved in amol or is it one of those plot lines that isn't wrapped up?

 

I'm guessing they both had a part to play for the invasion; Hanlon might have done something with the mercenaries.

[Neophyte]

I'd love to see Olver do for Daved Hanlon. Mat met him in Maerone when the White Lions were still in the area - it's pretty bloody tenuous, I'll admit, but Olver never went into detail about how his mom died. I know he says that she "got sick," and maybe that is all it is, but proximity makes it so that I can't help but wonder if Olver's mom might have been one of Hanlon's previous victims and that he might get some nice comeuppance finally. Since Olver is charging into war-torn Caemlyn anyway, where Hanlon is likely to be ...

 

As I said, I acknowledge that it is very tenuous. I still think it would be cool. Daved Hanlon is the sort who deserved to be gutted by the child of one of his victims.

[Luckers]

I'd love to see Olver do for Daved Hanlon. Mat met him in Maerone when the White Lions were still in the area - it's pretty bloody tenuous, I'll admit, but Olver never went into detail about how his mom died. I know he says that she "got sick," and maybe that is all it is, but proximity makes it so that I can't help but wonder if Olver's mom might have been one of Hanlon's previous victims and that he might get some nice comeuppance finally. Since Olver is charging into war-torn Caemlyn anyway, where Hanlon is likely to be ...

 

As I said, I acknowledge that it is very tenuous. I still think it would be cool. Daved Hanlon is the sort who deserved to be gutted by the child of one of his victims.

 

I could see that--especially if Olver genuinely is a sociopath and that wasn't just poor writing on Brandon's behalf. The creepy kid takes out the creepy man.

[John Snow]

I'd love to see Olver do for Daved Hanlon. Mat met him in Maerone when the White Lions were still in the area - it's pretty bloody tenuous, I'll admit, but Olver never went into detail about how his mom died. I know he says that she "got sick," and maybe that is all it is, but proximity makes it so that I can't help but wonder if Olver's mom might have been one of Hanlon's previous victims and that he might get some nice comeuppance finally. Since Olver is charging into war-torn Caemlyn anyway, where Hanlon is likely to be ...

 

As I said, I acknowledge that it is very tenuous. I still think it would be cool. Daved Hanlon is the sort who deserved to be gutted by the child of one of his victims.

 

I like it

[FarShainMael]

I'm wondering if Daved Hanlon used the medallion copy to nullify the wards or whatever they were on the Caemlyn waygate.

[GYLD]

That doesn't sound too likely. Verin made it clear from her letter that she knew the Waygate in Caemlyn was vulnerable and the events that led to Hanlon getting his hands on a medallion were far too convoluted for even Verin to anticipate.

[FarShainMael]

It needn't have been that specific. The order might have gone out (from whom? to whom?) to open the Waygate by whatever means necessary and available. Hanlon may have seen a chance and taken it.

[Neophyte]

As far as we know, the Waygate in Caemlyn was not warded. To quote myself from another thread:

 

IIRC he did ward the caemlyn waygate and had it "sealed". The shadow just found a way around it. Don't recall him actually leaving guards or am I misrembering?

 

In Lord of Chaos chapter ten Rand thinks: "He had the Waygate here in Caemlyn under guard, and those near Tear and Cairhien, but he could not even be sure how many more there were."

 

In Lord of Chaos chapter 20 Rand tells Elder Haman: "Shadowspawn are using the Ways ... I have set guards on the few that I can reach."

 

You are probably thinking about Knife of Dreams chapter 20 when Rand says, to Loial and Elder Haman, "Loial, I've sealed the Waygates I know, in Caemlyn and Cairhien, Illian and Tear, and I put a very nasty trap on the one that was cut open near Fal Dara, but I couldn't find the one near Far Madding."

 

It depends on what he means by "sealed." Apparently it is not the same as having a "very nasty trap" on it, since he differentiated what he did near Fal Dara. And obviously it doesn't mean that he took out both Avendesora leaves to kill the Waygate, since if that were the case the Shadow could not be using it now.

 

Verin's letter (ToM epilogue) says that "There is a Waygate in Caemlyn. It is guarded, barricaded, and thought secure. It is not."

 

So, apparently what Rand meant by "sealed" is that he "barricaded" them somehow - bricked them up, maybe - and then placed guards on them. Again, why he wouldn't add a "very nasty trap" along with all that, I don't know, since we know he can make them selective to Shadowspawn. But apparently he didn't (or if he did, someone undid the trap, which there would be plenty of time to have done). The rest - guards, barricades, etc., the Black Ajah and associated Darkfriends in Caemlyn have taken care of, as Chesmal said to Elayne when she was posing as one of the Chosen in ToM ch 23.

 

The Caemlyn Waygate is, as far as we know, "guarded, barricaded, and thought secure." Guards and barricades can all be dealt with by regular Darkfriend action.

 

Then there is the fact that Chesmal tells fake-Forsaken-Elayne that everything is ready for the assault on Caemlyn before the fight in which Hanlon nabs the medallion. So it doesn't seem likely that they needed it.

[FarShainMael]

When a channeller states that they have 'set guards' I don't think those guards necessarily have to be human.. but you're prob right about the timing. Drat.

[Neophyte]

When a channeller states that they have 'set guards' I don't think those guards necessarily have to be human.. but you're prob right about the timing. Drat.

 

Mmmm ... I can't think of any instance in which a channeler has used the word "guards" to mean "wards" or "weaves." The terminology there has been pretty consistent and precise.

 

Besides, in this same context (sometimes in the same conversations) Rand was asking the Ogier to set "guards" on their Waygates. Ogier can't channel, so I'm fairly sure he meant the marching type. :)

[FarShainMael]

When a channeller states that they have 'set guards' I don't think those guards necessarily have to be human.. but you're prob right about the timing. Drat.

 

Mmmm ... I can't think of any instance in which a channeler has used the word "guards" to mean "wards" or "weaves." The terminology there has been pretty consistent and precise.

 

Besides, in this same context (sometimes in the same conversations) Rand was asking the Ogier to set "guards" on their Waygates. Ogier can't channel, so I'm fairly sure he meant the marching type. :)

All very true; but I'm now asking myself, why wouldn't Rand have used the OP somehow to secure the Waygate? Recall what he did in Shadar Logoth.

 

PS: I think there's an instance somewhere, where Rand thinks of 'webs' rather than 'weaves'.. I'll try and find it.

 

PPS. Got it. It's in CoT24.

[thisguy]

Why wouldn't Rand just have loial lock the waygate from outside and then put a reinforced steel door on the outside - or brick it up, and a couple of guards? Seems to be important enough to do so - a backdoor into every kingdom for shadowspawn.

[Neophyte]

When a channeller states that they have 'set guards' I don't think those guards necessarily have to be human.. but you're prob right about the timing. Drat.

 

Mmmm ... I can't think of any instance in which a channeler has used the word "guards" to mean "wards" or "weaves." The terminology there has been pretty consistent and precise.

 

Besides, in this same context (sometimes in the same conversations) Rand was asking the Ogier to set "guards" on their Waygates. Ogier can't channel, so I'm fairly sure he meant the marching type. :)

All very true; but I'm now asking myself, why wouldn't Rand have used the OP somehow to secure the Waygate? Recall what he did in Shadar Logoth.

 

PS: I think there's an instance somewhere, where Rand thinks of 'webs' rather than 'weaves'.. I'll try and find it.

 

PPS. Got it. It's in CoT24.

 

OK. "Webs" is the AoL terminology for "weaves," so it is some Lews Therin slippage ... its still nowhere near "guards."

 

And honestly, I have no idea why Rand would not have warded the bejezuz out of every Waygate he could get his grubby little mitts on. And taught Karldin to do the same. I know what he did in Shadar Logoth, and it would have made sense to do that everywhere else too.

 

Or, for that matter, just remove both leaves on both sides of all the Waygates and let them die. It isn't safe to use them anyway. Maybe save one or two which are HEAVILY guarded and warded just in case you can figure out how to cleanse them later, like Loial wanted, and then you can regrow new Waygates once they're cleansed.

 

But given what is actually said in the books, it doesn't look like that is what happened.

 

Personally I think that is a major tactical flub on the Light's part - they've left the back door open. For a long time I think they assumed that Machin Shin would protect them against huge numbers of Shadowspawn using the Ways, but after what happened at Lord Algarin's farm, Rand at least should know better. The Shadow has found a way around that. Rand hasn't had a lot of spare time since then, its true, but something more should have been done. It is a failure of imagination on the part of the good guys.

[FarShainMael]

It's said to be 'barricaded' - but I'm not sure Randland tech runs to reinforced steel.. But I take your point.

[Tiberius]

Well, whatever means were used, they have clearly been circumvented. With the succession war, Rand being crazy until recently, and a feeling that the city is now secure, no one had probably even thought about the waygate in some time. The problem I have with it is the logistical problem of moving so many troops through such a small opening, and the amount of time it would take, that no one noticed trollocks in the city until its too late. Even once the invasion started, it would seem very easy to shut it down quickly. Provided anyone at all was paying attention.

[thisguy]

Well, whatever means were used, they have clearly been circumvented. With the succession war, Rand being crazy until recently, and a feeling that the city is now secure, no one had probably even thought about the waygate in some time. The problem I have with it is the logistical problem of moving so many troops through such a small opening, and the amount of time it would take, that no one noticed trollocks in the city until its too late. Even once the invasion started, it would seem very easy to shut it down quickly. Provided anyone at all was paying attention.

I don't agree with the first part - the AS knew about the Ways - being who they are and having one in TV that's fenced off. If Rand didn't think of it, you'd think they would.

 

The logisitics part - I TOTALLY agree with you. Especially, the Caemlyn gate. It's in a cellar. You'd think an alarm would go up when no more than 100 trollocs showed up.

 

That said - I think this is what RJ invisioned the ways being used for and even if Rand put wards, steel doors and guards on them and removed the leaves, the shadow would have found a way to use them.

[Neophyte]

Why wouldn't Rand just have loial lock the waygate from outside and then put a reinforced steel door on the outside - or brick it up, and a couple of guards? Seems to be important enough to do so - a backdoor into every kingdom for shadowspawn.

 

Apparently he has "barricaded" and "guarded" the ones he can get to. But barricades can be removed, and guards can be killed or subverted.

 

For that matter, wards can be undone by another channeler who knows how. I'm coming to the conclusion that the only really effective way to deal with the Waygates is to kill them by removing both Avendesora leaves. That's the only way to be sure that nothing is going to come through them again. Loial didn't want to do that, in the hopes that one day they could be cleansed, but I think I would have overridden him in that situation. They definitely aren't useful for the good guys now, and whats the use of preserving them "just in case" if it lets the Shadow have a huge advantage in the Last Battle?

 

I think Rand and co. mishandled this situation pretty badly, and I think it is going to bite them in the ass. (Literally - Trollocs eat people!)

[thisguy]

Why wouldn't Rand just have loial lock the waygate from outside and then put a reinforced steel door on the outside - or brick it up, and a couple of guards? Seems to be important enough to do so - a backdoor into every kingdom for shadowspawn.

 

Apparently he has "barricaded" and "guarded" the ones he can get to. But barricades can be removed, and guards can be killed or subverted.

 

For that matter, wards can be undone by another channeler who knows how. I'm coming to the conclusion that the only really effective way to deal with the Waygates is to kill them by removing both Avendesora leaves. That's the only way to be sure that nothing is going to come through them again. Loial didn't want to do that, in the hopes that one day they could be cleansed, but I think I would have overridden him in that situation. They definitely aren't useful for the good guys now, and whats the use of preserving them "just in case" if it lets the Shadow have a huge advantage in the Last Battle?

 

I think Rand and co. mishandled this situation pretty badly, and I think it is going to bite them in the ass. (Literally - Trollocs eat people!)

 

I agree. But, like I said, RJ needed a way for the baddies to get in and this was it. Purposefully overlooked.

[FarShainMael]

OK.  "Webs" is the AoL terminology for "weaves," so it is some Lews Therin slippage ... its still nowhere near "guards."

 

But 'guard' is quite close to 'ward'.

 

But I do agree with the main point. The Light dropped the ball.

[Guest varnel13]

I have a thought, we know the waygate at Caemlyn is used to attack...what about the one at TV, could be nasty for the AS if the SC come via gateways as the Shadow comes in the waygate