Seanchan and the AoL

[thisguy]

 

 

Edit: As for the oaths, yes they were a mistake and they put far too much faith in them. Further their institution has failed and their system is flawed. It needs a total overhaul of which Egwene has already been working towards. None of that however changes the fact that they have saved the world a few times over and have been the major force against the shadow for three thousand years. They have without a doubt done more good than harm. That was my original point. You can argue method and whether they are still best suited to lead the light at TG. What you cannot argue is their intentions.

didn't see this as you added it in after:

Yes, doesn't change that at all. And, it doesn't change the fact that many of their members are darkfriends. Sorry. You can't even argue that they turned later on and were cast out as we know for a fact that Liandrin was one before even going to the Tower. There's a reason RJ put that in there. SHE WAS AN AES SEDAI and a dark friend.

 

So, they've also been a major force for evil.

[Suttree]

All the AS had to do was make a fourth oath to never go over to the dark side or stay true to the light and have the women reswear it a couple of times a year. But, they don't do that. Liandrin was AS. Sorry.

 

Ok these manic repeat posts are not helping. You have have totally lost me in what you are trying to prove. Further what you propose would not have worked and the method has been exposed time and again in various threads. Feel free to go back and look them up if you care to.

 

If Liandrin was a DF who inflitrated the AS she is essentially a double agent. She does not count in working for the light. Just as Verin was not acually working for the shadow. I think you are hung up on a technicality. Are they called AS in name sure, but they serve the DO. It is a matter of allegiance not title.

 

Sorry mate, but I would be shocked if you find a single person who agrees that AS are responsible for the actions of Forsaken and BA. They could have done more to root them out sure. But what you propose has never been accepted anywhere in the fandom. You can post yourself silly all you want, it won't change that fact.

[Morden]

By the world, and by almost anyones definition they would be considered Aes Sedai, until they had been formally expelled as Black Ajah. But because the Aes Sedai did not until recently take them seriously, they were ignored and still part of the organisation.

 

Jaichim Carridin a.k.a Bors was a Child of the Light, yet still a darkfriend. and still considered a child of the light because he had not been booted out...

 

A corrupt cop is still a cop until he has been fired. and as such a BA Aes Sedai is still Aes Sedai until expelled from the tower. Admittedly now that many have been executed and others have fled, they are no longer Aes Sedai, but they are still the responsibility of the tower, because they trained and sheltered them and gave them power and influence.

 

Forsaken are another matter, they are not AS, because the original AS they belonged to removed them openly and condemned them.

[thisguy]

All the AS had to do was make a fourth oath to never go over to the dark side or stay true to the light and have the women reswear it a couple of times a year. But, they don't do that. Liandrin was AS. Sorry.

 

Ok these manic repeat posts are not helping. You have have totally lost me in what you are trying to prove. Further what you propose would not have worked and the method has been exposed time and again in various threads. Feel free to go back and look them up if you care to.

 

If Liandrin was a DF who inflitrated the AS she is essentially a double agent. She does not count in working for the light. Just as Verin was not acually working for the shadow. I think you are hung up on a technicality. Are they called AS sure, but they serve the DO. It is a matter of allegiance not name.

No, I think you are hung up on technicalities. The whole story is replete with these questions. Did the Aiel cease being the Aiel when they left the way of the leaf? The tinkers aren't Aiel anymore yet the kept to the way. RJ put all of these plotlines in there for you to question what was what.

 

There is what a person or group is supposed to be and what a person or a group is.

[thisguy]

By the world, and by almost anyones definition they would be considered Aes Sedai, until they had been formally expelled as Black Ajah. But because the Aes Sedai did not until recently take them seriously, they were ignored and still part of the organisation.

 

Jaichim Carridin a.k.a Bors was a Child of the Light, yet still a darkfriend. and still considered a child of the light because he had not been booted out...

 

A corrupt cop is still a cop until he has been fired. and as such a BA Aes Sedai is still Aes Sedai until expelled from the tower. Admittedly now that many have been executed and others have fled, they are no longer Aes Sedai, but they are still the responsibility of the tower, because they trained and sheltered them and gave them power and influence.

 

Forsaken are another matter, they are not AS, because the original AS they belonged to removed them openly and condemned them.

I'm with this guy. The only argument I'd have at all is about the Forsaken - I'm sure to some normal dude living in the AoL who knew what they were, he might still consider them AS after their expulsion. But, I get what you're saying and you said it more concisely than I did.

[Suttree]

A corrupt cop is still a cop until he has been fired. and as such a BA Aes Sedai is still Aes Sedai until expelled from the tower. Admittedly now that many have been executed and others have fled, they are no longer Aes Sedai, but they are still the responsibility of the tower, because they trained and sheltered them and gave them power and influence.

 

So by your thinking Malkier is reponsbile for it's own downfall? It was Lan's father's fault? He was blind to the fact that the vaunted Malkieri who are responsbile in holding the shdow at bay could have DF's plotting to bring it down.

 

Agelmar and Easar are reponsible for Ingtar? He hadn't been outed yet so his actions count against Sheinar?

 

No of course not, his actions count against DF's because their allegiance is to the shadow. They are the enemy. Once they swear they cease to count.

[MasterAblar]

There is no oath to the light and no oath not to go to the dark side.

 

No but there are the three oaths. If you have sworn the three oaths and are bound by them then you are Aes Sedai, if not then you aren't. So Siuan when she was gentled was no longer AS, Liandrin because she unswore the three oaths was not Aes Sedai, nor is any BA, because not a single one of them has sworn the three oaths. For good or for bad the three oaths are what make Aes Sedai since the trolloc wars. There may not be any oath against being a darkfriend, but it may well be outlawed in the tower law, but even if it isn't it's fairly evident that it's not allowed, seeing as all those who have been proven darkfriend have been executed. It's implicit that an Aes Sedai must serve the light. Should Tear be held responsible for Weiramon? Seanchan for Suroth? Darkfriends exist in every nation not just the WT. The difference is that the WT refused to accept that fact. That doesn't mean they allowed darkfriends, it just means they were so arrogant that they refused to accept the very real possibility that the WT was infiltrated. Are the actions of the BA going to reflect badly on the WT? Of course and probably moreso because the WT refused to acknowledge it's very existance. But that doesn't mean those actions were condoned by the WT.

[thisguy]

There is no oath to the light and no oath not to go to the dark side.

 

No but there are the three oaths. If you have sworn the three oaths and are bound by them then you are Aes Sedai, if not then you aren't. So Siuan when she was gentled was no longer AS, Liandrin because she unswore the three oaths was not Aes Sedai, nor is any BA, because not a single one of them has sworn the three oaths. For good or for bad the three oaths are what make Aes Sedai since the trolloc wars. There may not be any oath against being a darkfriend, but it may well be outlawed in the tower law, but even if it isn't it's fairly evident that it's not allowed, seeing as all those who have been proven darkfriend have been executed. It's implicit that an Aes Sedai must serve the light. Should Tear be held responsible for Weiramon? Seanchan for Suroth? Darkfriends exist in every nation not just the WT. The difference is that the WT refused to accept that fact. That doesn't mean they allowed darkfriends, it just means they were so arrogant that they refused to accept the very real possibility that the WT was infiltrated. Are the actions of the BA going to reflect badly on the WT? Of course and probably moreso because the WT refused to acknowledge it's very existance. But that doesn't mean those actions were condoned by the WT.

No, you're still AS until thrown out of the order. And, since the tower has trained you, you should be their responsibility to bring to justice. And, being a darkfriend does not automatically make you not an Aes Sedai as Liandrin was one before she came to the tower and when she was sworn in by the three oaths.

[Morden]

a Country is not an organisation, if you cannot see that then you are being blind.

 

As to Malkier. The royal family was responsible wasnt it? did Lans father put in safe guards so that the army would not march off following his brother to get slaughtered leaving them weak? did he impose safeguards so his countries fortifications could be stripped? No because it didnt occur to them that they could have darkfriends at the upper echelon of power...

 

Your mixing blame and responsibility. the AS are not to blame for what dark sisters do in its name, but they are responsible for keeping those sisters in check. If someone takes up a mantel of authority they are assuming that they will be able to keep their people in check. If you ignore it and someone gets hurt, its your responsibility.

[Vardar]

By the world, and by almost anyones definition they would be considered Aes Sedai, until they had been formally expelled as Black Ajah. But because the Aes Sedai did not until recently take them seriously, they were ignored and still part of the organisation.

 

Jaichim Carridin a.k.a Bors was a Child of the Light, yet still a darkfriend. and still considered a child of the light because he had not been booted out...

 

A corrupt cop is still a cop until he has been fired. and as such a BA Aes Sedai is still Aes Sedai until expelled from the tower. Admittedly now that many have been executed and others have fled, they are no longer Aes Sedai, but they are still the responsibility of the tower, because they trained and sheltered them and gave them power and influence.

 

Forsaken are another matter, they are not AS, because the original AS they belonged to removed them openly and condemned them.

 

Exactly!

 

And even after the cop has been fired, if he's still out and about using Police issued guns and equipment to wreak havoc, the police are still help accountable to stop him

[Suttree]

Your mixing blame and responsibility. the AS are not to blame for what dark sisters do in its name, but they are responsible for keeping those sisters in check. responsibility.

 

I'm not the one mixing it up Mord. This whole discussion started because @thisguy said AS are to blame for the actions of the Forsaken and BA.

 

As for the rest I see little practical difference between a country and its citizens and the WT and it's inhabitants. Elayne's Quensguard held Daved Hanlon. She is neither to blame or responsible for his arsons and murders. As Mastar Ablar said, it is implicict that an AS must serve the light. Once they forswear it and sign on with the DO they no longer count.

[Morden]

Your mixing blame and responsibility. the AS are not to blame for what dark sisters do in its name, but they are responsible for keeping those sisters in check. responsibility.

 

I'm not the one mixing it up Mord. This whole discussion started because @thisguy said AS are to blame for the actions of the Forsaken and AS.

 

You quoted me with

 

 

So by your thinking Malkier is reponsbile for it's own downfall? It was Lan's father's fault? He was blind to the fact that the vaunted Malkieri who are responsbile in holding the shdow at bay could have DF's plotting to bring it down.

 

In a sense I agree with you, they arent to blame for their actions or those of the forsaken, but to me, blame and responsibility are very different. To put it another way. Say I went round a friend of mine and took with me a young kid. The kid then goes on a rampage and breaks some expensive items. I would not be to blame for it, because it was not my actions. but I would be responsible for it, even if I could do nothing else except apologise and help clean up.

 

The only blame at the Aes Sedai's feet is that they refused to accept that the Black Ajah existed and as such allowed it to grow and prosper.

[thisguy]

Your mixing blame and responsibility. the AS are not to blame for what dark sisters do in its name, but they are responsible for keeping those sisters in check. responsibility.

 

I'm not the one mixing it up Mord. This whole discussion started because @thisguy said AS are to blame for the actions of the Forsaken and BA.

 

As for the rest I see little practical difference between a country and its citizens and the WT and it's inhabitants. Elayne's Quensguard held Daved Hanlon. She is not to blame for his arson and murder. As Mastar Ablar said, it is implicict that an AS must serve the light. Once they forswear it and sign on with the DO they no longer count.

Of course, the AS are to blame. They trained these people and took no responsibilty for their actions. At least, the present day AS have not, not until it was almost too late.

As for the thirteen red sisters question: If Elaida was BA, would you think her stuffing Rand in a box was evil? Of course you would. Since she isn't, you look at it as misguided.

 

We've been discussing this for days. It didn't start on this thread. You say the AS are a force for good. I say they're a mixed bag.

 

Edit to Add: and if my posts got manic it's because I didn't like the "I can't believe we're discussing this" remark.

[Suttree]

Of course, the AS are to blame. They trained this people and took no responsibilty for their actions. At least, the present day AS have not, not until it was almost too late.

As for the thirteen red sisters question: If Elaida was BA, would you think her stuffing Rand in a box was evil? Of course you would. Since she isn't, you look at it as misguided.

 

We've been discussing this for days. It didn't start on this thread. You say the AS are a force for good. I say they're a mixed bag.

 

No you said multiple times they have done more harm than good. No one has ever questioned that they haven't had missteps. I can quote twenty times where I have said the institution has failed.

 

In terms of Elaida I thank you not to speak on what I think as I have not commented on it either way. I actually don't recall the specifics did she order them to put him in a box and beat him or just to escort him back to the WT?

[thisguy]

Of course, the AS are to blame. They trained this people and took no responsibilty for their actions. At least, the present day AS have not, not until it was almost too late.

As for the thirteen red sisters question: If Elaida was BA, would you think her stuffing Rand in a box was evil? Of course you would. Since she isn't, you look at it as misguided.

 

We've been discussing this for days. It didn't start on this thread. You say the AS are a force for good. I say they're a mixed bag.

 

No you said multiple times they have done more harm than good. No one has ever questioned that they haven't had missteps. I can quote twenty times where I have said the institution has failed.

 

In terms of Elaida I thank you not to speak on what I think as I have not commented on it either way. I actually don't recall the specifics did she order them to put him in a box and beat him or just to kidnap him back to the WT?

I've said they've done as much harm as good. You pointed out the good they've done, I pointed out the bad.

 

Even if she didn't tell them to do that, she ordered them to capture him - this is exactly what responsibility is about.

 

Edit to Add: And, if any of those sisters who captured him were not BA then what I said applies to them, too. They decided to beat him and put him in a box. If they were BA you'd say it was an evil deed.

[Morden]

Of course, the AS are to blame. They trained this people and took no responsibilty for their actions. At least, the present day AS have not, not until it was almost too late.

As for the thirteen red sisters question: If Elaida was BA, would you think her stuffing Rand in a box was evil? Of course you would. Since she isn't, you look at it as misguided.

 

We've been discussing this for days. It didn't start on this thread. You say the AS are a force for good. I say they're a mixed bag.

 

No you said multiple times they have done more harm than good. No one has ever questioned that they haven't had missteps. I can quote twenty times where I have said the institution has failed.

 

In terms of Elaida I thank you not to speak on what I think as I have not commented on it either way. I actually don't recall the specifics did she order them to put him in a box and beat him or just to kidnap him back to the WT?

 

she ordered them to make him pliable or something similar, dont think she expected them to go to such extremes, but she definately wanted him softened up ready for her. Not that I think she would disagree with what they did in the slightest, especially if they made it to the tower with him.

[MasterAblar]

There is no oath to the light and no oath not to go to the dark side.

 

No but there are the three oaths. If you have sworn the three oaths and are bound by them then you are Aes Sedai, if not then you aren't. So Siuan when she was gentled was no longer AS, Liandrin because she unswore the three oaths was not Aes Sedai, nor is any BA, because not a single one of them has sworn the three oaths. For good or for bad the three oaths are what make Aes Sedai since the trolloc wars. There may not be any oath against being a darkfriend, but it may well be outlawed in the tower law, but even if it isn't it's fairly evident that it's not allowed, seeing as all those who have been proven darkfriend have been executed. It's implicit that an Aes Sedai must serve the light. Should Tear be held responsible for Weiramon? Seanchan for Suroth? Darkfriends exist in every nation not just the WT. The difference is that the WT refused to accept that fact. That doesn't mean they allowed darkfriends, it just means they were so arrogant that they refused to accept the very real possibility that the WT was infiltrated. Are the actions of the BA going to reflect badly on the WT? Of course and probably moreso because the WT refused to acknowledge it's very existance. But that doesn't mean those actions were condoned by the WT.

No, you're still AS until thrown out of the order. And, since the tower has trained you, you should be their responsibility to bring to justice. And, being a darkfriend does not automatically make you not an Aes Sedai as Liandrin was one before she came to the tower and when she was sworn in by the three oaths.

 

In name only, not in spirit. They may still carry the name, but it's a lie, and it does not represent what WT stands for.

[Suttree]

Of course, the AS are to blame. They trained this people and took no responsibilty for their actions. At least, the present day AS have not, not until it was almost too late.

As for the thirteen red sisters question: If Elaida was BA, would you think her stuffing Rand in a box was evil? Of course you would. Since she isn't, you look at it as misguided.

 

We've been discussing this for days. It didn't start on this thread. You say the AS are a force for good. I say they're a mixed bag.

 

No you said multiple times they have done more harm than good. No one has ever questioned that they haven't had missteps. I can quote twenty times where I have said the institution has failed.

 

In terms of Elaida I thank you not to speak on what I think as I have not commented on it either way. I actually don't recall the specifics did she order them to put him in a box and beat him or just to kidnap him back to the WT?

I've said they've done as much harm as good. You pointed out the good they've done, I pointed out the bad.

 

Even if she didn't tell them to do that, she ordered them to capture him - this is exactly what responsibility is about.

 

Edit to Add: And, if any of those sisters who captured him were not BA then what I said applies to them, too. They decided to beat him and put him in a box. If they were BA you'd say it was an evil deed.

 

Don't have time to go back and look in the books but Encyclopedai WoT says...

 

Elaida sends an embassy of Aes Sedai to Cairhien to escort Rand to the White Tower.

 

Would be interested in seeing the exact orders. For some reason I am blanking.

 

There is no oath to the light and no oath not to go to the dark side.

 

No but there are the three oaths. If you have sworn the three oaths and are bound by them then you are Aes Sedai, if not then you aren't. So Siuan when she was gentled was no longer AS, Liandrin because she unswore the three oaths was not Aes Sedai, nor is any BA, because not a single one of them has sworn the three oaths. For good or for bad the three oaths are what make Aes Sedai since the trolloc wars. There may not be any oath against being a darkfriend, but it may well be outlawed in the tower law, but even if it isn't it's fairly evident that it's not allowed, seeing as all those who have been proven darkfriend have been executed. It's implicit that an Aes Sedai must serve the light. Should Tear be held responsible for Weiramon? Seanchan for Suroth? Darkfriends exist in every nation not just the WT. The difference is that the WT refused to accept that fact. That doesn't mean they allowed darkfriends, it just means they were so arrogant that they refused to accept the very real possibility that the WT was infiltrated. Are the actions of the BA going to reflect badly on the WT? Of course and probably moreso because the WT refused to acknowledge it's very existance. But that doesn't mean those actions were condoned by the WT.

No, you're still AS until thrown out of the order. And, since the tower has trained you, you should be their responsibility to bring to justice. And, being a darkfriend does not automatically make you not an Aes Sedai as Liandrin was one before she came to the tower and when she was sworn in by the three oaths.

 

In name only, not in spirit. The may still carry the name, but it's a lie, and it does not represent what WT stands for.

 

Exactly my point. Thisguy is hung up on the technicality of the name. When judging the WT you don't count the actions of Forsaken and BA on the ledger.

[thisguy]

I don't remember either, I just started LoC for the first time in a long time. Either way, let's say Elaida said "Escort him and make sure no harm comes to him" and then the Aes Sedai who went beat him and put him in a box. What I said still remains the same - If those AS were BA, you'd call it evil.

[Vardar]

Your mixing blame and responsibility. the AS are not to blame for what dark sisters do in its name, but they are responsible for keeping those sisters in check. responsibility.

 

I'm not the one mixing it up Mord. This whole discussion started because @thisguy said AS are to blame for the actions of the Forsaken and AS.

 

You quoted me with

 

So by your thinking Malkier is reponsbile for it's own downfall? It was Lan's father's fault? He was blind to the fact that the vaunted Malkieri who are responsbile in holding the shdow at bay could have DF's plotting to bring it down.

 

In a sense I agree with you, they arent to blame for their actions or those of the forsaken, but to me, blame and responsibility are very different. To put it another way. Say I went round a friend of mine and took with me a young kid. The kid then goes on a rampage and breaks some expensive items. I would not be to blame for it, because it was not my actions. but I would be responsible for it, even if I could do nothing else except apologise and help clean up.

 

The only blame at the Aes Sedai's feet is that they refused to accept that the Black Ajah existed and as such allowed it to grow and prosper.

 

Reading this, you and I seem to agree.

 

A corrupt cop is still a cop until he has been fired. and as such a BA Aes Sedai is still Aes Sedai until expelled from the tower. Admittedly now that many have been executed and others have fled, they are no longer Aes Sedai, but they are still the responsibility of the tower, because they trained and sheltered them and gave them power and influence.

 

So by your thinking Malkier is reponsbile for it's own downfall? It was Lan's father's fault? He was blind to the fact that the vaunted Malkieri who are responsbile in holding the shdow at bay could have DF's plotting to bring it down.

 

Agelmar and Easar are reponsible for Ingtar? He hadn't been outed yet so his actions count against Sheinar?

 

No of course not, his actions count against DF's because their allegiance is to the shadow. They are the enemy. Once they swear they cease to count.

 

Yes, and yes. Although again, they didn't have such an easy way to know, i.e. the oath rod. But yes they are.

[MasterAblar]

Would be interested in seeing the exact orders. For some reason I am blanking.

 

We never see the exact order, but in aCoS chapter 32 we are told (from Elaida's point of view): "Galina had been instructed to begin making al'Thor supple."

[Suttree]

Would be interested in seeing the exact orders. For some reason I am blanking.

 

We never see the exact order, but in aCoS chapter 32 we are told (from Elaida's point of view): "Galina had been instructed to begin making al'Thor supple."

 

Thanks MA!

 

Yes, and yes. Although again, they didn't have such an easy way to know, i.e. the oath rod. But yes they are.

 

Well I'm glad that is settled. Posters can stop blaming AS for the fall of Malkier now ;)

[Vardar]

Would be interested in seeing the exact orders. For some reason I am blanking.

 

We never see the exact order, but in aCoS chapter 32 we are told (from Elaida's point of view): "Galina had been instructed to begin making al'Thor supple."

 

Thanks MA!

 

Yes, and yes. Although again, they didn't have such an easy way to know, i.e. the oath rod. But yes they are.

 

Well I'm glad that is settled. Posters can stop blaming AS for the fall of Malkier now ;)

 

LOL. People blamed the AS? I wouldn't say they're responsible for protecting any kingdom. Not directly. Their help might be asked, but it shouldn't be expected.

[Knivy]

Id think they would be responsible for protecting Malkier, if not the political structure at least the land against the blight. I dont remember the specifics, was it they couldnt arrive on time or they sent help too late?

 

Whatever that was, everything Ive seen (other than the few "rouges" like Moir and Cads) from the AS has been to build their own power and the influence of the WT. Since the trolloc wars at least, the goal of the tower has been to guide the world as it sees fit, not to protect the world. Their manipulation of thrones has undoubtedly lead to as many wars. Sometimes it is just best to let things be. The only good they can do as an institution is defense against the shadow. Everything else is balanced out.

 

As to who is considered AS, If you can channel and have risen through the tower, then you are one until you are cast out.

[Vardar]

Id think they would be responsible for protecting Malkier, if not the political structure at least the land against the blight. I dont remember the specifics, was it they couldnt arrive on time or they sent help too late?

 

Whatever that was, everything Ive seen (other than the few "rouges" like Moir and Cads) from the AS has been to build their own power and the influence of the WT. Since the trolloc wars at least, the goal of the tower has been to guide the world as it sees fit, not to protect the world. Their manipulation of thrones has undoubtedly lead to as many wars. Sometimes it is just best to let things be. The only good they can do as an institution is defense against the shadow. Everything else is balanced out.

 

As to who is considered AS, If you can channel and have risen through the tower, then you are one until you are cast out.

 

Well I mean what makes them responsible to help. Unless they had a treaty or something, any help they offer is out of the kindness of their own heart. They may "feel" obligated to assist, but they're not technically responsible for defending the borders of a country that's not theirs.